Strange marriages

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 minute ago, James Steller said:

Who the hell is Jon Cupps?

Sounds like a bastard name from the Inn at the Crossroads. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Sounds like a bastard name from the Inn at the Crossroads. 

Jon Cupps, formerly the family that owned the Inn at the Crossroads. The Heddles booted them out by playing a drinking a game for the inn. 

[KingMaekarWasHere]

Marriages to me that DO NOT MAKE SENSE!!!

1. Genna Lannister (Tywin's Sister) and a Frey (I forgot his name honestly) 

2. Baelor Breakspeare and Jena Dondarrion ( I am guessing that this was a love match but since Baelor was the most eligible prince in the Seven kingdoms, he could have married a lady of a Great House.) 

3. Daemon Blackfyre and Rohanne of Tyrosh (May have been for love as well or lust. But weren't there Plumm or Penrose cousins that he could have married?) 

4. Daeron Targaryen and Oleanna Redwyne. How is this marriage very strategic? Because her family has wine and ships? As far as I could tell a Stark or Royce marriage may have been better because Daeron had Blackwood blood, and First men houses would have not only been more grateful for that bit, but those houses would have likely been loyal to the Mad King later on had his uncle married one of them. 

[Angel Eyes]

15 minutes ago, KingMaekarWasHere said:

Marriages to me that DO NOT MAKE SENSE!!!

1. Genna Lannister (Tywin's Sister) and a Frey (I forgot his name honestly) 

2. Baelor Breakspeare and Jena Dondarrion ( I am guessing that this was a love match but since Baelor was the most eligible prince in the Seven kingdoms, he could have married a lady of a Great House.) 

3. Daemon Blackfyre and Rohanne of Tyrosh (May have been for love as well or lust. But weren't there Plumm or Penrose cousins that he could have married?) 

4. Daeron Targaryen and Oleanna Redwyne. How is this marriage very strategic? Because her family has wine and ships? As far as I could tell a Stark or Royce marriage may have been better because Daeron had Blackwood blood, and First men houses would have not only been more grateful for that bit, but those houses would have likely been loyal to the Mad King later on had his uncle married one of them. 

1. Emmon Frey.

[Hippocras]

30 minutes ago, KingMaekarWasHere said:

Marriages to me that DO NOT MAKE SENSE!!!

1. Genna Lannister (Tywin's Sister) and a Frey (I forgot his name honestly) 

2. Baelor Breakspeare and Jena Dondarrion ( I am guessing that this was a love match but since Baelor was the most eligible prince in the Seven kingdoms, he could have married a lady of a Great House.) 

3. Daemon Blackfyre and Rohanne of Tyrosh (May have been for love as well or lust. But weren't there Plumm or Penrose cousins that he could have married?) 

4. Daeron Targaryen and Oleanna Redwyne. How is this marriage very strategic? Because her family has wine and ships? As far as I could tell a Stark or Royce marriage may have been better because Daeron had Blackwood blood, and First men houses would have not only been more grateful for that bit, but those houses would have likely been loyal to the Mad King later on had his uncle married one of them. 

I very much doubt Jena Dondarrion was a love match. highly political and dangerous times. 

[Green Stag]

9 hours ago, KingMaekarWasHere said:

Marriages to me that DO NOT MAKE SENSE!!!

1. Genna Lannister (Tywin's Sister) and a Frey (I forgot his name honestly) 

2. Baelor Breakspeare and Jena Dondarrion ( I am guessing that this was a love match but since Baelor was the most eligible prince in the Seven kingdoms, he could have married a lady of a Great House.) 

3. Daemon Blackfyre and Rohanne of Tyrosh (May have been for love as well or lust. But weren't there Plumm or Penrose cousins that he could have married?) 

4. Daeron Targaryen and Oleanna Redwyne. How is this marriage very strategic? Because her family has wine and ships? As far as I could tell a Stark or Royce marriage may have been better because Daeron had Blackwood blood, and First men houses would have not only been more grateful for that bit, but those houses would have likely been loyal to the Mad King later on had his uncle married one of them. 

1.  The reason given for Genna Lannister and Emmon Frey is that her father was weak and easily swayed.  Everyone, except maybe the Freys, appear to believe this a bad match

2.  Jena Dondarrion is a strange choice on the surface, some speculate she is a cousin somehow, maybe a descendant of Rhaena Targaryen.   No evidence at all, but my thought is she may be the daughter of Daena Targaryen.  

3.  Daemon Blackfyre was still a bastard when Aegon IV arranged the marriage to Rohanne of Tyrosh, is doesn't appear to have been a love / lust match.  No idea on this one.  

4.  Daeron Targaryen and Olenna Redwyne:  The Redwynes seem to be fairly powerful and prestigious; however I would think with betrothals to Baratheon, Tyrell and Tully that a North or Vale marriage would be more advantageous, but I could be wrong.  

[Hippocras]

3 hours ago, Green Stag said:

1.  The reason given for Genna Lannister and Emmon Frey is that her father was weak and easily swayed.  Everyone, except maybe the Freys, appear to believe this a bad match

2.  Jena Dondarrion is a strange choice on the surface, some speculate she is a cousin somehow, maybe a descendant of Rhaena Targaryen.   No evidence at all, but my thought is she may be the daughter of Daena Targaryen.  

3.  Daemon Blackfyre was still a bastard when Aegon IV arranged the marriage to Rohanne of Tyrosh, is doesn't appear to have been a love / lust match.  No idea on this one.  

4.  Daeron Targaryen and Olenna Redwyne:  The Redwynes seem to be fairly powerful and prestigious; however I would think with betrothals to Baratheon, Tyrell and Tully that a North or Vale marriage would be more advantageous, but I could be wrong.  

1. Agree, Genna's marriage is explained sufficiently.

2. I have a different theory on Jena, because I have a different idea where Daena went. I think Jena might have been Rhaena's (sister of Daena) daughter. Rhaena eventually became a septa of course, but GRRM makes a point of saying "eventually". I suspect Viserys married her off first after her release from the vault and she became a septa when her husband died.

3. I think Aegon IV arranged the marriage of Daemon to his half-sister, and Rohanne was Daena's daughter. She was sent away as soon as freed, maybe even shortly after Daemon was born to exhile in Tyrosh. The age window is small, but it fits.

4. I am pretty sure that Olenna descends from the other Rhaena. Rhaena Hightower had 6 daughters and the Hightowers had deep family relationships to maintain in the Reach. Redwynes were close kin of her husband, and cousin marriages very common.

[SaffronLady]

14 hours ago, KingMaekarWasHere said:

2. Baelor Breakspeare and Jena Dondarrion ( I am guessing that this was a love match but since Baelor was the most eligible prince in the Seven kingdoms, he could have married a lady of a Great House.) 

Baelor is half-Martell and the Dondarrions are Marcher Lords. Maybe this was a match to reduce hostility between the Dornish and the Dornish Marches. 

Asides from the blood reasons, that is, but that's beyond my field of understanding.

[Hippocras]

4 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Baelor is half-Martell and the Dondarrions are Marcher Lords. Maybe this was a match to reduce hostility between the Dornish and the Dornish Marches. 

Asides from the blood reasons, that is, but that's beyond my field of understanding.

I think it probably was, but Dorne/Marches relationships were not the only ones that needed tending to at the time. This is the Blackfyre era, and leading up to it, and the descendants of Baela and Rhaena, as well as Aegon III's daughters needed to be convinced to remain loyal to the crown. 

Baelor the Blessed, Aemon the Dragonknight, and Daeron I were all connected to House Dondarion because of the Dornish War. House Dondarrion would have been top candidate for a match with a Targaryen princess at precisely the moment when the sisters were freed from the maidenvault by Viserys II. But Daena was tainted and considered wild. She would not have been desireable, and she was also dangerous if given an army because she was the eldest. Elaena was possibly already promised, or at least was involved with Alyn Velaryon. So that leaves Rhaena.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Hippocras

[Green Stag]

6 hours ago, Hippocras said:

2.  I have a different theory on Jena, because I have a different idea where Daena went. I think Jena might have been Rhaena's (sister of Daena) daughter. Rhaena eventually became a septa of course, but GRRM makes a point of saying "eventually". I suspect Viserys married her off first after her release from the vault and she became a septa when her husband died.

4. I am pretty sure that Olenna descends from the other Rhaena. Rhaena Hightower had 6 daughters and the Hightowers had deep family relationships to maintain in the Reach. Redwynes were close kin of her husband, and cousin marriages very common.

2.  Agree that Rhaena’s daughter is a possibility, and she would be “second best” to unite Aegon III and Aegon IV lines.  There “has to be” more to the Jena marriage then just being from a Stormland house. (I believe you and I discussed this elsewhere)

4. With the number of daughters Rhaena Hightower had, a Redwyne marriage is definitely possible, particularly given their proximity to each other.  Seems a very reasonable explanation

[Daendrew]

On 10/23/2023 at 8:56 AM, Kal-L said:

I would like to talk about marriages/alliances between families that kind of baffle me at first sight.

The first one is the marriage of Ysilla Royce, daughter of Lord Yohn Royce with the young Mychel Redfort. I always found this match-up strange, why would the second most powerful man of the Vale marry his daughter to the fourth son of a less prestigious family ? It's not even a love match as the young Redfort had a rather known affair with Mya Stone, Robert's bastard. With House Royce's recent death rate, the young Redfort definitely hit the jackpot, but what is in for Ysilla's family ?

There is also the mariage of Jocelyn Stark, Lord Rickard's aunt, with a younger son of a minor branch of House Royce ! Before that, the only known daughter of a Lord of Winterwell to have been married south the Neck had been Lord Torrhen Stark's daughter - to the great dismay of her family. I know that Jocelyn's father Lord Willam had been long dead at that point but what could have led to that strange match-up ? Remember that if anything happened to Lord Edwyle or his only son Rickard, she would supposedly become the heir of Winterfell (maybe there is something to dig there...).

The Lannisters makes a big deal out of Gemma's wedding with Lord Frey's second son, probably with reasons, yet Gemma's fate is apparently far from an isolated case.

What are your thoughts on these matches ? Do you have others strange/unequal deals in mind ?

There is magic in Royce blood. One of the oldest Houses in Westeros. There is cache, prestige and the ability of getting magic blood in line.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Baelor Breakspear and Jena Dondarrion is a bit odd. I understand the logic of a marriage to a Marcher family, but the Dondarrions don’t seem quite prestigious enough for a future Queen consort.

[The Bard of Banefort]

For the first few books, GRRM seemed to take a pretty stringent approach towards noble marriages, dismissing those between different social classes as unrealistic. Then sometime around ADWD, it looks like he just figured that it was more fun to include some less conventional marriages. Alys Karstark marrying a wildling was probably the first instance, but TWOIAF and FnB are filled with highborn ladies marrying men far lower down the totem poll (the Rhaenas, Elaena, Elinor Costayne, Cassandra Baratheon, etc.) It’s pretty funny how George went from saying “the prince would have raped the peasant girl” to then being like, Hey, wouldn’t it be cool if the prince of Dragonstone fell in love with a peasant girl named Jenny?

[Hippocras]

7 hours ago, Daendrew said:

There is magic in Royce blood. One of the oldest Houses in Westeros. There is cache, prestige and the ability of getting magic blood in line.

I know there is SOMETHING to the Royces, but we don't really have any evidence of magic there. Yet anyway. I am certainly waiting to find out.

[Hippocras]

7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Baelor Breakspear and Jena Dondarrion is a bit odd. I understand the logic of a marriage to a Marcher family, but the Dondarrions don’t seem quite prestigious enough for a future Queen consort.

They were very prestigious, and in very high standing at that point in time. Blackhaven is where Baelor the Blessed went to recover from his many viper bites in Dorne. After that their role is unspecified, but as the reign of Baelor was preoccupied with making peace with Dorne, which Viserys after him wished to sustain, a Dondarrion was likely on the small council subsequently. No peace would have been possible without support from the Marcher Lord Houses, of which House Dondarrion is one of the most, if not THE most significant.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Hippocras

[Daendrew]

8 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I know there is SOMETHING to the Royces, but we don't really have any evidence of magic there. Yet anyway. I am certainly waiting to find out.

They wear bronze armor which won't shatter in the cold like steel. And they have runes on their armor which tell ancient secrets from before alphabets.

All this to say... will you unMarry me? 

[Frey family reunion]

9 hours ago, Hippocras said:

They were very prestigious, and in very high standing at that point in time. Blackhaven is where Baelor the Blessed went to recover from his many viper bites in Dorne. After that their role is unspecified, but as the reign of Baelor was preoccupied with making peace with Dorne, which Viserys after him wished to sustain, a Dondarrion was likely on the small council subsequently. No peace would have been possible without support from the Marcher Lord Houses, of which House Dondarrion is one of the most, if not THE most significant.

Your reminder of Baelor's stay at Blackhaven made me think of Robb and his stay at the Crag.  The stay where Robb impregnated Lady Jeyne.  

Valarr seemed to exhibit more Targaryen features than his father.  So it's at least possible (as has been discussed before) that Lady Jena had a Targaryen bloodline of her own.

Is it possible that this bloodline could have been the result of Baelor's stay in Blackhaven?  I know Baelor is considered chaste and perhaps without desire for the opposite sex, but I'm not sure that's completely true.

One of the theories as to why Baelor locked up his sisters, was to keep him from being tempted into having sexual relations with them.   Which may imply that Baelor knew he had a desire for female companionship which he considered a weakness, that he needed to be protected from.  Perhaps the Lady of Blackhaven helped nurse Baelor back to health and, like Robb did with Jeyne, Baelor "dishonored" her.  

Now, I'm not sure why this would lead to a marriage between the offspring of this liason and House Targaryen, unless perhaps in the year after Baelor Breakspear's birth and before Baelor the Blessed's death, the King made this match out of a sense of obligation towards his secret bastard.

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Hippocras]

12 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Your reminder of Baelor's stay at Blackhaven made me think of Robb and his stay at the Crag.  The stay where Robb impregnated Lady Jeyne.  

Valarr seemed to exhibit more Targaryen features than his father.  So it's at least possible (as has been discussed before) that Lady Jena had a Targaryen bloodline of her own.

Is it possible that this bloodline could have been the result of Baelor's stay in Blackhaven?  I know Baelor is considered chaste and perhaps without desire for the opposite sex, but I'm not sure that's completely true.

One of the theories as to why Baelor locked up his sisters, was to keep him from being tempted into having sexual relations with them.   Which may imply that Baelor knew he had a desire for female companionship which he considered a weakness, that he needed to be protected from.  Perhaps the Lady of Blackhaven helped nurse Baelor back to health and, like Robb did with Jeyne, Baelor "dishonored" her.  

Now, I'm not sure why this would lead to a marriage between the offspring of this liason and House Targaryen, unless perhaps in the year after Baelor Breakspear's birth and before Baelor the Blessed's death, the King made this match out of a sense of obligation towards his secret bastard.

 

It is possible. But he was pretty sick while there. Also, he was already married to Daena.

In itself, the Daena-Baelor marriage is probably the most strange. Why was she given to Baelor and not King Daeron? The marriage was during Daeron's reign and would have been arranged by either Daeron himself or by Viserys who was Hand.

Baelor dissolved his marriage to Daena when he returned, so not long after his stay at Blackhaven, so maybe something did go on there to provoke that reaction. But it is not possible that he secretly or hastily married anyone because it was before his marriage was dissolved.

 

[Frey family reunion]

18 hours ago, Hippocras said:

It is possible. But he was pretty sick while there. Also, he was already married to Daena.

In itself, the Daena-Baelor marriage is probably the most strange. Why was she given to Baelor and not King Daeron? The marriage was during Daeron's reign and would have been arranged by either Daeron himself or by Viserys who was Hand.

Baelor dissolved his marriage to Daena when he returned, so not long after his stay at Blackhaven, so maybe something did go on there to provoke that reaction. But it is not possible that he secretly or hastily married anyone because it was before his marriage was dissolved.

 

I’m not suggesting he married anyone, I’m suggesting he may have impregnated Lord Dondarrion’s wife.

[Hippocras]

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’m not suggesting he married anyone, I’m suggesting he may have impregnated Lord Dondarrion’s wife.

Maybe, yes.