Strange marriages

[Kal-L]

I would like to talk about marriages/alliances between families that kind of baffle me at first sight.

The first one is the marriage of Ysilla Royce, daughter of Lord Yohn Royce with the young Mychel Redfort. I always found this match-up strange, why would the second most powerful man of the Vale marry his daughter to the fourth son of a less prestigious family ? It's not even a love match as the young Redfort had a rather known affair with Mya Stone, Robert's bastard. With House Royce's recent death rate, the young Redfort definitely hit the jackpot, but what is in for Ysilla's family ?

There is also the mariage of Jocelyn Stark, Lord Rickard's aunt, with a younger son of a minor branch of House Royce ! Before that, the only known daughter of a Lord of Winterwell to have been married south the Neck had been Lord Torrhen Stark's daughter - to the great dismay of her family. I know that Jocelyn's father Lord Willam had been long dead at that point but what could have led to that strange match-up ? Remember that if anything happened to Lord Edwyle or his only son Rickard, she would supposedly become the heir of Winterfell (maybe there is something to dig there...).

The Lannisters makes a big deal out of Gemma's wedding with Lord Frey's second son, probably with reasons, yet Gemma's fate is apparently far from an isolated case.

What are your thoughts on these matches ? Do you have others strange/unequal deals in mind ?

[Alester Florent]

44 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

I would like to talk about marriages/alliances between families that kind of baffle me at first sight.

The first one is the marriage of Ysilla Royce, daughter of Lord Yohn Royce with the young Mychel Redfort. I always found this match-up strange, why would the second most powerful man of the Vale marry his daughter to the fourth son of a less prestigious family ? It's not even a love match as the young Redfort had a rather known affair with Mya Stone, Robert's bastard. With House Royce's recent death rate, the young Redfort definitely hit the jackpot, but what is in for Ysilla's family ?

The problem with being a prestigious house is that there are limited opportunities to marry up. You're also limited by what's on offer, especially when it comes to daughters who have a window of peak marriageability. Who are the Royce girls going to marry otherwise? There aren't any Eyrie Arryns around, and in the period we're talking about, marrying outside the Vale is fraught with much more risk than it might otherwise be, because almost every other kingdom is embroiled in civil war and you're tying yourself politically to their cause. So some of the houses in the North or the Riverlands that the Royces might normally consider are more or less off the table.

I do also wonder to what extent the fanbase overstates the power and prestige of House Royce as perceived within the Vale. The Royces are a First Men house in Andal Central. We can't help but imbibe some Stark attitudes and therefore the First Men tend to have a relatively positive reception within the fandom, but the First Men heritage of the Royces may be a mark against them in Vale circles. Of course, they do have a lot of influence as their history shows, but perhaps they are not considered head and shoulders above the other Vale houses.

The Redforts are a powerful family in the Vale (and also of First Men origin) and Ysilla herself isn't really expected to inherit much (she may not even be Yohn's eldest daughter), so it might in fact be considered an entirely appropriate marriage of more-or-less equals.

[The hairy bear]

20 hours ago, Kal-L said:

The first one is the marriage of Ysilla Royce, daughter of Lord Yohn Royce with the young Mychel Redfort.

In addition to Alester Florent's great points, there's also the fact that we do not know how many daughters Lord Royce has. If Ysilla's "marriage value" would go down significantly if she was Yohn's sixth of seventh daughter.

20 hours ago, Kal-L said:

There is also the mariage of Jocelyn Stark, Lord Rickard's aunt, with a younger son of a minor branch of House Royce ! Before that, the only known daughter of a Lord of Winterwell to have been married south the Neck had been Lord Torrhen Stark's daughter - to the great dismay of her family. I know that Jocelyn's father Lord Willam had been long dead at that point but what could have led to that strange match-up ? Remember that if anything happened to Lord Edwyle or his only son Rickard, she would supposedly become the heir of Winterfell (maybe there is something to dig there...).

It seems that the rules of succession of Winterfell disregards female claimants (George has confirmed that there has never been a Lady of Winterfell or Queen of Winter, and with a lineage extending for several millennia, that can only happen if women are barred from inheriting). So, presumably, if Edwyle and Rickard had suddenly died, Winterfell would have gone to the closest male available.

Still, I agree that the marriage seems strange. It's worth noticing that, in Jocelyn's generation, there's the only other marriage of a Stark with anyone who isn't from the North or a Blackwood: her cousin's Branda Stark wedding with Harrold Rogers.

Those two girls would be too old to remain unmarried by the time of the War of the Ninepenny Kings, so it can't be explained by friendships during the war. And House Rogers and a secondary branch of House Royce are not important enough to suspect early steps of "Southern ambitions". But yeah, there might be something to dig here.

22 hours ago, Kal-L said:

What are your thoughts on these matches ? Do you have others strange/unequal deals in mind ?

On the paper, the weirdest marriage I can think of is Gerold Lannister and Rohanne Webber. But surely that's something that George plans to explain in a future D&E story.

[James Steller]

Stannis and Selyse’s marriage baffles me on all levels.

Supposedly, the reason why it was made is that Robert wanted to check the Tyrells or something like that by marrying his brother - who was also his heir at the time- to a member of their bitterest rivals. Though I don’t understand

(a) how the Florents could ever be considered rivals with only 2000 swords at their command

(b) why the bride was the daughter of a third son over someone higher up in the family.

(c) how the marriage was supposed to matter once Robert had sons of his own

(d) what Robert expected from that marriage when the Florents clearly didn’t care about Stannis or Selyse when they sided against them with Renly anyway.

The only way it makes any kind of sense to me is that Robert arranged for his antisocial and awkward little brother to marry the ugliest and least appealing woman he could find on a flimsy pretence of creating tension in the Reach, when really it was just Robert having a laugh. The fact that he also soiled Stannis’ wedding bed with a more attractive Florent woman says a lot to me as well.

Also, Jorah’s marriage to Lynesse Hightower didn’t make sense to me at all. They’re from opposite ends of Westeros, they have different religions and wildly different expectations of lifestyle. I don’t care how besotted they might have been, it makes no sense to me why Lord Hightower ever approved of that marriage. It really just feels forced into the story by GRRM, though I don’t know why considering he could have gotten Jorah to Essos in a variety of much more plausible ways.

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by James Steller

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

when really it was just Robert having a laugh.

That may just be what Robert's sense of humor is like...

[James Steller]

8 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

That may just be what Robert's sense of humor is like...

Absolutely. That’s the only explanation that makes sense to me. It’s in keeping with Robert’s bullying behaviour towards Stannis when they were kids, too.

Edited October 24, 2023 by James Steller

[Alester Florent]

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

Absolutely. That’s the only explanation that makes sense to me. It’s in keeping with Robert’s bullying behaviour towards Stannis when they were kids, too.

Do we have any actual indication that he bullied Stannis, other than making fun of Stannis's useless hawk? That falls well within the bounds of regular sibling sparring so far as I can see, particularly since Stannis now recognises that he was making a fool of himself.

[James Steller]

17 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Do we have any actual indication that he bullied Stannis, other than making fun of Stannis's useless hawk? That falls well within the bounds of regular sibling sparring so far as I can see, particularly since Stannis now recognises that he was making a fool of himself.

I think you and I read that scene differently.

For my part, I see that as Stannis showing empathy and affection for an animal which he connects with, since it lives in the shadow of Robert’s bird. His reflection that he was being foolish, coupled with the fact that he abandoned the bird for being “useless” is a sign that he has suppressed his empathy over the years after he was mocked and shamed for it. And yes, Robert’s mockery is typical sibling behaviour, but that behaviour leaves scars, however small. It clearly left a mark on Stannis, not least because he remembers it so clearly and brings it up twenty years later. It’s a tragic story to me; Stannis didn’t have to be so inwardly withdrawn and emotionally broken, but life punished him, and so he conditioned himself in pursuit of an ideal set by his older brother, who preferred to replace Stannis with Ned Stark as a brother figure. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by James Steller

[Alester Florent]

9 minutes ago, James Steller said:

I think you and I read that scene differently.

For my part, I see that as Stannis showing empathy and affection for an animal which he connects with, since it lives in the shadow of Robert’s bird. His reflection that he was being foolish, coupled with the fact that he abandoned the bird for being “useless” is a sign that he has suppressed his empathy over the years after he was mocked and shamed for it. And yes, Robert’s mockery is typical sibling behaviour, but that behaviour leaves scars, however small. It clearly left a mark on Stannis, not least because he remembers it so clearly and brings it up twenty years later. 

Right, but I don't think that necessarily demonstrates that Robert was a bully. Unless every sibling who's ever lived is. Teasing and mocking your siblings is just a normal part of growing up together, even among siblings who get on very well. And you can't control which parts of that your sibling takes to heart and remembers and which they don't (and vice versa; my sister for instance felt guilty for a long time for some of the shit she pulled with me, that I had long since forgotten). And this is also Stannis, someone who holds every grudge imaginable, never forgives, never forgets, is never satisfied with his lot. I think it's too easy to extrapolate that one instance into a generalised behaviour of bullying.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

Ynys Yornwood to Ryon Allarion. Now granted, this may just be a mistake in the book, but Ynys is listed above Ser Cletus, would make her the heir to Yronwood. If it isn't a mistake though, did Lord Anders disinherit his daughter, and would that not make Arianne's worries significantly more valid than we often treat them? 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

44 minutes ago, James Steller said:

And yes, Robert’s mockery is typical sibling behaviour, but that behaviour leaves scars, however small. It clearly left a mark on Stannis, not least because he remembers it so clearly and brings it up twenty years later. 

Listen, I teach children. All children mock their younger siblings. All. I have yet to see a situation where that was not happening. Now, could that be a serious issue for Stannis? I guess so, my own sister seems to hold a lot of grudges for my behavior as a child (despite it all being relatively innocent). But he also abandoned his brother to die in King's Landing, despite knowing that was probably going to happen. He also abandoned his younger brother, and felt jealous of him despite Renly being a child. Oh, and he then murdered Renly. Stannis is far from the person I feel bad for in that brotherly situation. But as you are a Stannis-stan, I am sure I am about to receive a lecture in how Stannis is the most poor little man in all of Westeros. 

[James Steller]

31 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

But as you are a Stannis-stan, I am sure I am about to receive a lecture in how Stannis is the most poor little man in all of Westeros. 

No, I’m not going to act like Stannis is innocent and a 100% victim. I’m not blind to the fact that he is a deeply flawed man who does highly questionable things. That’s par for the course with anyone in this series, too. I do think he’s one of the most compelling and best-written characters in the series. Warts and all. 
You can’t dismiss me that easily.

Edited October 24, 2023 by James Steller

[Lee-Sensei]

Rohanne Webber and Gerold Lannister. Presumably Duncan's bastard marrying a Tarth. I don't think that we know why Stannis married Selyse.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Alden Rothack]

19 hours ago, James Steller said:

Also, Jorah’s marriage to Lynesse Hightower didn’t make sense to me at all. They’re from opposite ends of Westeros, they have different religions and wildly different expectations of lifestyle. I don’t care how besotted they might have been, it makes no sense to me why Lord Hightower ever approved of that marriage. It really just feels forced into the story by GRRM, though I don’t know why considering he could have gotten Jorah to Essos in a variety of much more plausible ways.

Yup, there simply is no way that Lord Hightower could expect her to be kept in the style she deserves in the event of Jorahs death, nor is there anywhere on Bear Island to keep Lynesse's dowry safe, that kind of money would invite attack on the island in ordr to steal it (a certain lyseni pirate would absolutely go for it)

[Green Stag]

21 hours ago, James Steller said:

Also, Jorah’s marriage to Lynesse Hightower didn’t make sense to me at all. They’re from opposite ends of Westeros, they have different religions and wildly different expectations of lifestyle. I don’t care how besotted they might have been, it makes no sense to me why Lord Hightower ever approved of that marriage. It really just feels forced into the story by GRRM, though I don’t know why considering he could have gotten Jorah to Essos in a variety of much more plausible ways.

I believe that in part the Hightowers may have been trying to climb the new social hierarchy.  Jorah should have a relatively direct line to Ned, who would have pretty direct access to both King Robert and Jon, the hand.  The Hightowers are also pretty well connected in Reach:  Tyrell, Rowan, Redwyne, Abrose, Florent - looking outside the Reach may have been thought to be a good idea, at least at the time

[Walda]

On 10/24/2023 at 10:00 PM, James Steller said:

Jorah’s marriage to Lynesse Hightower didn’t make sense to me at all. They’re from opposite ends of Westeros, they have different religions and wildly different expectations of lifestyle. I don’t care how besotted they might have been, it makes no sense to me why Lord Hightower ever approved of that marriage.

I suspect that Jorah was set up to marry Lynesse by Lord Tywin, Lord Leyton and possibly King Robert.

Barristan knows that he was ordered to take a dive for the jouster carrying Lady Lynesse's favor. Lynesse was told who to give it to. Jorah still doesn't know that all those better jousters let him win.

Lord Leyton made the trip to Lannisport specifically to marry Lynesse off. Thanks to Robert's knighthood, and Jeor's Lordship, and his first wife dying without issue, Jorah (barely) makes it onto the list of gallant single lords that a Hightower lass might be permitted to marry. 

Of course, it is a vastly inferior match to Alerie's at Highgarden, and we can assume the reigning Lord Ambrose and even a cadet branch of the Redwyne family were prosperous marriages for Alysanne and Denyse.

Not so sure about Leyla's husband, Ser Jon Cupps. But that is because all we know about him is his name, which strongly suggests he is part of the household entourage at the Arbor. 

Or perhaps the sisters fell in love, and Lord Leyton deemed a couple of hidalgos associated with the Arbor were a good enough match for a couple of the younger Hightower girls.

Lynesse was clearly expecting more than a log keep with an earthern wall and an axe-weilding bare-breasted strumpet scratched onto the gate. She might also have been expecting *less* in the form of axe-weilding strumpets and their bastard offspring, too. But the way Lord Slynt associated the Mormont name with "beds with bears", tells me that this scandalous part of Jorah's household would not have taken Leyton, Tywin, or Robert by surprise.

Why Lord Leyton would agree to such a match, when he had made such a spectacular match with Alerie? I think maybe, Lord Tywin and King Robert felt that Leyton needed to bring someone into his family who was *not* so loyal to King Aerys as Mace had been.

Why Ser Leyton would just hand his beautiful youngest daughter to the stiff they suggested? Two possibilities. One is that Lynesse was in some sense "soiled goods". Perhaps she had given her favor to some unsuitable Southron who had died in the battle of Pyke, making her sad and indifferent about who her father married her off to, and willing to collaborate with him (or at least, eager enough to escape him to not to foil his plan). Or perhaps Malora has had a vison that Lynesse needed to marry the swain she would meet at the tourney of Lannisport.

I guess there is an outside chance that Robert had uncovered some sort of treasonous plot that Leyton might be suspected of supporting, and having uncovered it, offered Leyton the opportunity to make amends by marrying Lynesse to the man King Robert chose (rather like Doran married off Lady Sylva, heir of Spottswood, to the inferior but safe and strategically good for him Lord Estermont as punishment for her family allowing her to participate in Arriane's (really Tyene's) plot to crown Myrcella). 

I can see how Oldtown would benefit economically from the sea trade if the Lannisport docks were burnt or the seas around it were infested by Ironborn. I can see how Lord Tywin would object to that. 

I can see, too, how King Robert would be happy to have the opportunity to weaken the Hightowers, who might have played a role in keeping Viserys safe in the Free Cities, and strenthen his own and their loyalties in the North, in a way that Lord Leyton might be grateful to acquiesce to.

His own marriage, and Jon Arryn's, even Ned Stark's, show that King Robert knows the value of marriage diplomacy. Robert is also skilled at turning enemies into friends when he sees the military advantage of doing so.

Plus, happy father-in-law, happy life. Lord Tywin would be more likely to be motivated by money than King Robert, although he is no slouch when it comes to identifying military threats to his own power, either.

Lord Tywin's fleet had been wiped out by the Ironborn, who were on Robert's side, attacking the South in *his* rebellion. Then, after burning Lannisport the Ironborn had moved on *Seaguard* rather than following the trade routes down to the Mander, the Arbor, and Oldtown.  Leaving the Arbor with the biggest navy in Westeros, and the King with a navy in need of rebuilding at some expense, and Lord Tywin with no navy at all. Of course he is going to wonder if maybe Mace and his bannermen had some sort of *arrangement* with King Balon, that Balon's target was the Trident, rather than the wealthy South. He would wonder who gave Balon the notion that King Robert lacked the aristocratic support a Targaryen king could rely on, when *he*, Aerys own Hand, had taken Robert as a son-in-law. He might also remember and resent that Leyton had the audacity to act offended when Tywin had proposed that one of Leyton's daughters might marry Tyrion. Perhaps that is the reason that Melora never married, and the older girls all married Targ loyalists of the Reach.

Lord Tywin is not the type to let some fool like Balon get away with destroying his fleet at anchor, either. Robert, on the other hand, is exactly the type to give Balon clemency and arrange for the Iron Fleet to return to trade as soon as the hostages have been taken and peace promised.

So I am pretty sure, of my three suspects, Lord Tywin is the real maker of this match. Tourneys are not cheap to hold, and *his* sea-trade must be done by proxy captains at proxy ports for the nonce, and these will profit from the customs and duties that Lannisport used to levy.

But without King Robert's knighthood, Jorah might not have fancied himself a tourney knight, or sought the thin pleasure of Lord Tywin's hospitality. Without the knighthood, Lord Jorah would look like the brutal solider he is, twice Lynesse's age, ugly and inconsiderate, with one wife already buried,  rather than a dazzling hero covered in honors and glory. I don't think Ser Barristan or Ser Jaime would have taken a dive except on his king's order,either.

And of course, if Lord Leyton did not approve the match, it would not have happened. If Lynesse had to be instructed to surrender her favor to Jorah, it would be Lord Leyton giving her the instruction. Lynesse clearly thought Jorah was more genteel than he really was, and probably more wealthy (at least, assumed he had the money to afford the lifestyle she had imagined enjoying as a married woman, at most, was a gold-digger).

Lord Leyton's sons attended the tourney, but there's no mention of daughters apart from Lynesse. I think this indicates that Lord Leyton had been given a choice of which child was going to be (secretly) claimed by King Robert as proof of his loyalty. He could have chosen Malora, who as the elder has precedence over her sister, althought the sobrequiet "Mad Maid" and the association with witchcraft might have made her a less attractive proposition, even supposing she was outwardly as lissome as Lynesse, and more age appropriate. Of course, we know that Lynesse being half Jorah's age did not put him off, and was likely one thing that made her so utterly attractive to him. 

The brothers that jousted were probably Baelor and Garth, as Gunthor was no older than fourteen, and Humphrey even younger. Baelor was about Jorah's age, and Garth in his twenties, both presumably knights already, or very recently dubbed by Robert.

Also, Lord Leyton's wife is a Florent. We know that Stannis was wedded to Selyse around this time, at Robert's command. Perhaps Stannis marrying Selyse was part of Robert's/Tywin's plan to marry into houses they suspect might plot resistance to King Robert.

Robert doesn't care if Selyse has a mustache and Stannis isn't comfortable with women at all. That would just make their union hi-larious to him. But it might explain why Stannis needed to marry into a family so much less wealthy and powerful than his own 

I notice a lot of Jorah's opponents in the joust were Riverlords (Jason Mallister, a couple of Freys, Lord Whent). That is interesting, but I have no explination for it. 

 Also, it seems strange to me that Cersei's hand in marriage was such a hard sell. I suppose, after Tyrion was born, some might wonder what kind of ofspring she might bear, and others might fear such a powerful and merciless in-law as Lord Tywin. In the time of Aerys, some might be slow to rush in and marry the beautiful girl that Prince Rhaegar neglected. I am wondering if it was also because King Aerys had spoken widely of twincest, and trashed her reputation, but Tywin never let her or Jaime know. 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Walda

[Frey family reunion]

On 10/23/2023 at 7:56 AM, Kal-L said:

What are your thoughts on these matches ? Do you have others strange/unequal deals in mind ?

There are always two, (maybe three) possible explanations for seemingly uneven wedding matches at least when the position of the bride appears much stronger than the position of the groom.

The first is that the bride is homely.  While it doesn't appear that the brides have a whole lot of say in who they are to marry, the grooms on the other hand seem to have a bit more autonomy.

It may simply be that if the bride was not considered comely, her father may have a hard time making a match despite his position and despite the dowery offered.

The other possibility is that the bride isn't considered chaste.  That seems to be a real issue in Westeros.  If the bride has a reputation of sexual impropriety, word gets around especially among the Houses that are closest to the bride's house.

It might explain Lord Hightower's difficulty in finding a match for Lynesse.  Perhaps her reputation preceded her in the Reach, thus he had to find a Lord from an isolated area that would have been unaware of her reputation.

Finally, some of the Houses despite their apparent prestige might have financial difficulties where they can't match the doweries of lesser houses.

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Hippocras]

Regarding Jocelyn Stark:

 

I think people are right to suspect something is up. If I am correct in my thinking, Jocelyn is a key name that hints at ties to other Jocelyns. The Royce match would therefore not be about status but about a very important female line. This does not seem like the right place to elaborate on thd idea, nor do I have enough backup ready and on hand. But consider that names are often repeated within families.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

For Lynesse Hightower : Leyton Hightower has 10 children. That's why, lol. He was like, yes please, take my youngest daughter off my hands, lol. I think when you get into the 8th or 9th child, you get particularly less picky. Ser Jorah may have actually been the best marriage he could hope for for a 10th child (I think she is youngest). He is after all a knight, was the Lord? (When did Jeor become Lord Commander?), and House Mormant is one of the most important Northern houses. Like her sister married Jon Cupps. Who the hell is Jon Cupps? Seems like a more questionable marriage than Ser Jorah. And another sister married into House Ambrose. Like, House Mormont is looking pretty good at this point. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[James Steller]

43 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

 Like her sister married Jon Cupps. Who the hell is Jon Cupps? Seems like a more questionable marriage than Ser Jorah. 

Add that pairing to the strange marriages list, then.

 
And at least House Ambrose is an established noble house in the Reach with a long history. Even with all those kids, I still find it strange that Hightower would settle for such men as Jorah Mormont and Jon Cupps to marry his daughters. There were plenty of better options, too. Stannis could have married Leyla, for one thing. A far better option than Selyse Florent, since the Hightowers could feasibly challenge the Tyrells for the lordship of the Reach. Lynesse could have married Bryce Caron, Beric Dondarrion, Andar Royce, Daven Lannister, Edmure Tully, etc.