Israel - Hamas War VI

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Ugh… the “unintentional” use of pro-Hamas instead of pro-Palestinian civilians.

This shot actually helps legit anti semites, because Israel and it’s supporters constantly disliking child murder with disliking them and loving terrorists 

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

This shot actually helps legit anti semites, because Israel and it’s supporters constantly disliking child murder with disliking them and loving terrorists 

I’m not sure I understood…

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Ugh… the “unintentional” use of pro-Hamas instead of pro-Palestinian civilians.

This shot actually helps legit anti semites, because Israel and it’s supporters constantly disliking child murder with disliking them and loving terrorists 

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I’m not sure I understood…

Double post sorry.

I meant to say Israel and its supporters constantly equating disliking Israel’s barbarism with disliking Jews fuels anti-semitism.

[Craving Peaches]

Quote

Doctor treating Jabalia patients says majority women and children 

I’ve just spoken to Dr Mohamed El Ron - the surgical director at the Indonesia Hospital in Jabalia, where many of the casualties from the air strikes were taken.

El Ron said the hospital received around 400 casualties, including 120 dead, and the majority were children and women. He sent photos and videos from the emergency department showing dozens of casualties being treated.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67258466

I think this civilian cost is disproportionate and too high. If this many people have to die to get at the actual military target, a considerable portion of the total Gazan population will be wiped out in the process.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Craving Peaches
To remove 'hyperbole'.

[JoannaL]

12 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Double post sorry.

I meant to say Israel and its supporters constantly equating disliking Israel’s barbarism with disliking Jews fuels anti-semitism.

Sorry I still don't get it: you mean people become antisemitic because other people accuse other people of antisemism when the actually are only critising Israels politics? Have you any proof that this is a source for antisemitism, are there studies?

[Ran]

18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

If this many people have to die to get at the actual military target, the whole of Gaza will be wiped out in the process.

That is obviously hyperbole, because just the cold and ugly math of what you propose would leave Gaza with ~95% of its population intact  (30,000 Hamas/50 killed per similar strike = 600 strikes * 120 civilians killed per similar strike = 72,000 dead, or 110,000 ... in a terrritory with over 2 million people.)

(Also, this assumes the 120 dead are not counting the ~50 Hamas fighters. The Health Ministry labels all Gazans as civilians, fighters or not. if it *does* include them, then the numbers become 600 * 70 civilains killed per similar strike, 42,000 or 72,000, or about 3.5%)

Not that this is how it will actually go, of course. The purpose of the action now seems to be to establish control of the north to then separate it from the south, reducing activity in the south part and basically just waiting out Hamas in the north. Humanitarian zones and corridors are being established that will allow all those people who decided that the strong recommendation to evacuate issued weeks ago(and repeated several times since) did not apply to them to reconsider, and leave the north even emptier and ideally only militants are left by  the end who can then be waited out.

These starting battles and skirmishes as the IDF envelops the area around Gaza City are not going to be easy as Hamas is actively resisting and fighting. Hamas militants will die, IDF soldiers will die, and, yes, civilians who have made the choice of not going south, or have been prevented from doing so by circumstances or Hamas, will certainly die in tragic numbers.

I think casualty rates will fall when the IDF has created its line to isolate the north from the south. They'll hit back at anyone harrasing them or trying to break out ,but I don't think they've intentions to go into Gaza City until Hamas is basically done.

And I really doubt every last Hamas fighter is actually going to die, too, so I really don't think we need to think about such numbers except to dismiss them.

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Ran

[Zorral]

How many innocent civilians -- mostly, as we have already seen in these last weeks women and children -- will die before that happens?  How many innocent Jewish and Muslim people will die and / or be attacked around the world from these atrocities that the entire world SEES being committed by Israel's politicians to save their own skins -- which WILL NOT BE SAVED no matter how many women and children they murder.

The security-surveillance has so ramped up here, because everything and everybody here is a target from both sides.

It's such a joke too, as the city officials warn us to be watchful because there are threats, but to carry on with our normal lives.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Zorral

[fionwe1987]

38 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Double post sorry.

I meant to say Israel and its supporters constantly equating disliking Israel’s barbarism with disliking Jews fuels anti-semitism.

I dunno that it fuels antisemitism. But it certainly devalues the term if supporting civilians in Gaza, BDS, and criticism of the Israeli government get called antisemitism. 

I also don't understand the usefulness of creating a heirarchy of which kind of hatred and religiously charged violence is worse or matters more. That kind of calculation doesn't hold up anyway. It's certainly true antisemitic violence is widespread in the US, and more numerous cases of it reported than anti-Muslim violence. But what can we conclude based on this? At the same time this is true, more people have died in Gaza than did in Israel during this conflict. Hold those two facts and come up with something coherent to say about how Muslims and Jews are being treated worldwide. I certainly cannot. 

All of this is used to impose a clean narrative on this hell show. To justify past violence. To justify the continuation of violence.

They all distract from the central fact that concepts like nationhood, borders, even religion should not matter more than the humanity of the people suffering. The only morality that I accept in such a situation is one that gives reducing the loss of innocent life primacy in any formula to decide what must be done next.

Hamas certainly didn't do this. And Israel is showing itself to be no different.

 

[Werthead]

The Houthi rebels in Yemen have launched a series of attacks on Eilat. So far, Israeli AA defences and aircraft are intercepting the incoming drones and missiles.

 

[Fragile Bird]

New thread up.

[Mudguard]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

That is obviously hyperbole, because just the cold and ugly math of what you propose would leave Gaza with ~95% of its population intact  (30,000 Hamas/50 killed per similar strike = 600 strikes * 120 civilians killed per similar strike = 72,000 dead, or 110,000 ... in a terrritory with over 2 million people.)

(Also, this assumes the 120 dead are not counting the ~50 Hamas fighters. The Health Ministry labels all Gazans as civilians, fighters or not. if it *does* include them, then the numbers become 600 * 70 civilains killed per similar strike, 42,000 or 72,000, or about 3.5%)

Not that this is how it will actually go, of course. The purpose of the action now seems to be to establish control of the north to then separate it from the south, reducing activity in the south part and basically just waiting out Hamas in the north. Humanitarian zones and corridors are being established that will allow all those people who decided that the strong recommendation to evacuate issued weeks ago(and repeated several times since) did not apply to them to reconsider, and leave the north even emptier and ideally only militants are left by  the end who can then be waited out.

These starting battles and skirmishes as the IDF envelops the area around Gaza City are not going to be easy as Hamas is actively resisting and fighting. Hamas militants will die, IDF soldiers will die, and, yes, civilians who have made the choice of not going south, or have been prevented from doing so by circumstances or Hamas, will certainly die in tragic numbers.

I think casualty rates will fall when the IDF has created its line to isolate the north from the south. They'll hit back at anyone harrasing them or trying to break out ,but I don't think they've intentions to go into Gaza City until Hamas is basically done.

And I really doubt every last Hamas fighter is actually going to die, too, so I really don't think we need to think about such numbers except to dismiss them.

 

Why wouldn't Hamas fighters also be located in the southern portion of Gaza?  If Israel is able to get control of the northern part, I'm sure that their focus will move to the southern portion, where no doubt there will be thousands of additional "legitimate military targets."

Where will Israel force Palestinian civilians to move to then?  They've already pushed over a million people to the south towards the border with Egypt.  Interestingly, this lines up with the plan to relocate everyone into the Egyptian Sinai.  I don't think that can happen though without Egypt's approval.