Where is this idea that Tyrion was good in the first 3 books coming from when the vast majority of bad things he has done happen in them?

[Otatop1000]

23 hours ago, SeanF said:

Rape of a slave is still rape.  The scene with the slave girl at Selhorys is sickening.

I seem to remember her having a look of disgust cause he’s a malformed disfigured dwarf.  I will take a look at this chapter again with the your thoughts in mind.  This is right before Ser Jorah nabs him yes?

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

23 minutes ago, Otatop1000 said:

I seem to remember her having a look of disgust cause he’s a malformed disfigured dwarf. 

So what? 

Also, you are confusing her for Illyrio's slave. The slave woman in...Selhorys...just looked blankly at him repeatedly.

Also, you don't need to reread the scene, it's rape. That's like saying, "I need to reread whether Tyrion murdered Tywin or not."

[SeanF]

40 minutes ago, Otatop1000 said:

I seem to remember her having a look of disgust cause he’s a malformed disfigured dwarf.  I will take a look at this chapter again with the your thoughts in mind.  This is right before Ser Jorah nabs him yes?

Tyrion thinks the girl is already dead inside.  Then he rapes her, twice.

[Otatop1000]

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

So what? 

Also, you are confusing her for Illyrio's slave. The slave woman in...Selhorys...just looked blankly at him repeatedly.

Also, you don't need to reread the scene, it's rape. That's like saying, "I need to reread whether Tyrion murdered Tywin or not."

I am not confusing the Illyrio slave.  That’s why specified this the girl right before Ser Jorah nabs him.  What I mean is that I didn’t get rape from it I understood it as she was bearing through his ugliness while he didn’t throughly enjoy his experience, a loss of past joys.  A sign that he is not the whorring dwarf he used to be.  Look I’m willing to reread and change my opinion on it.  Not saying you guys are wrong, I just don’t see an evil little imp when I read ADWD.  I see a man who has had all reason to live yanked from him and he’s changing his world outlook.  I could have misinterpreted that scene for sure.  And by suggest reread that scene I’m acknowledging you may be correct.  Simple.

[Craving Peaches]

With regards to 'Sunset Girl', given she was a sex slave who did not share a common language with Tyrion and so could not communicate with him, and bearing in mind the whip scars, I think it's safe to say she did not consent in any meaningful way.

[Otatop1000]

So, I have reread chapter 22 ADWD.  And I still must say it’s not rape.  Yes she is a slave.  However, Tyrion used her as was intended, invited her to chop off his head and return it to King’s Landing. At no point did my Lord of Castlery Rock force himself upon her.  She did not ask him in Volanteneese for him to stop or say no in high Valyrian.  Peaches I respect your word and your opinion but Tyrion paid for this girl.  And did not take extra advantage, I stand by what I said, as it may upset you all.  Tyrion is a man who finds his most favorite activity of whorring no longer palatable.  If anything this Tyrion has grown and, as later chapters show, though he hates her, cares for Penny the dwarf who mocked him without knowing it.  My friends our True Warden of the West is a martyr, he has died, without dying.  He is traveling down Joseph Cambell’s hero’s journey.  And this is his low, and still he takes credit for ruining the Myrish carpet.  Cares for this girl who despised his grotesque visage.  Rape is what the Mountain does to the tavern masters daughter.  Rape is what happens to Reek and Jenye Pool.  Do not confuse a sex slave/whore who has no taste for the patron.  Is it fair that this girl is a sex slave, no.  But does Tyrion abuse given her station, No.  To classify this as rape is to say Job Snow killed the Half Hand not on his orders.  To say that Robb Stark deserved to die at the Red Wedding.  Does Victarion misuse the Dusky Lady, because she was gifted by Euron?

[Alester Florent]

3 hours ago, Otatop1000 said:

So, I have reread chapter 22 ADWD.  And I still must say it’s not rape.  Yes she is a slave.  However, Tyrion used her as was intended, invited her to chop off his head and return it to King’s Landing. At no point did my Lord of Castlery Rock force himself upon her.  She did not ask him in Volanteneese for him to stop or say no in high Valyrian.  Peaches I respect your word and your opinion but Tyrion paid for this girl.  And did not take extra advantage, I stand by what I said, as it may upset you all.  Tyrion is a man who finds his most favorite activity of whorring no longer palatable.  If anything this Tyrion has grown and, as later chapters show, though he hates her, cares for Penny the dwarf who mocked him without knowing it.  My friends our True Warden of the West is a martyr, he has died, without dying.  He is traveling down Joseph Cambell’s hero’s journey.  And this is his low, and still he takes credit for ruining the Myrish carpet.  Cares for this girl who despised his grotesque visage.  Rape is what the Mountain does to the tavern masters daughter.  Rape is what happens to Reek and Jenye Pool.  Do not confuse a sex slave/whore who has no taste for the patron.  Is it fair that this girl is a sex slave, no.  But does Tyrion abuse given her station, No.  To classify this as rape is to say Job Snow killed the Half Hand not on his orders.  To say that Robb Stark deserved to die at the Red Wedding.  Does Victarion misuse the Dusky Lady, because she was gifted by Euron?

Context matters in these things. Rape is sex without consent. Now, there is a lot of debate as to what "consent" actually should mean in practice, and the extent to which it has to be affirmative, but I believe there is general consensus that mere absence of refusal of consent is not sufficient. And that consent obtained by coercion - especially though not exclusively the threat of violence - is not valid consent.

The slave girl in Selhorys neither gives nor refuses consent, but she is in a position where she is effectively incapable of refusing. Tyrion might not be directly coercing her, but she knows that if she refuses, Tyrion will probably complain to her master who will have her whipped or worse. Even if Tyrion directly asks for her consent, she is still incapable of actually answering that question honestly, because whether Tyrion means the question honestly or not she can't run the risk of refusing. And Tyrion knows this. He doesn't have the defence of ignorance inasmuch as that is a defence: he knows how these things work, he observed her scars, her blank stare, and so on. He knew exactly what was going on.

Things can get murkier with free sex workers who are in principle entitled to refuse to deal with certain patrons. In practice, this may be easier said than done, depending on the patron in question, the protection available to the worker, and whether or not a pimp is involved (and how they operate), and so on. The line between prostitution and sex slavery can be less than clear, but almost all that lack of clarity is in ostensibly free prostitutes who are in fact unfree due to their social or working conditions, and it would still be a mistake, I think, to categorise all the sex that happens on the "free" side of the line as genuinely consensual. I think there is a legitimate debate to be had about Tyrion's relationship with Shae in this context even if it's a discussion I'm not particularly interested in having. But the girl in Selhorys is definitively a slave. She has no choice or say in the matter. Even your own language betrays the issue: "Tyrion uses her as intended". That's grim.

So yeah, it's still rape. Rape is a very broad, perhaps too broad, category of offence. What Gregor and his men did to the innkeeper's daughter is at the very extreme end of it, but that rape can be so violent doesn't mean that anything that falls short of that is not rape. It's possible to kill people relatively painlessly: that doesn't make it any less murder than torturing them to death is. That Tyion wasn't holding the whip himself, that he didn't use direct violence to force himself upon her, doesn't absolve him: sure, it could have been worse, but it doesn't make it acceptable.

Also, forgive me if I don't think that Tyrion's feeling a bit guilty about it afterwards absolves him either. He knew what he was doing when he went in there. In the words of a great man, "Who cares if you're sorry? Be sorry about this stuff before you do it, then don't do it!

The experience may be one that Tyrion learns from and grows from and helps turn him into a better person (jury very much out on that one), but that doesn't help the poor girl who was sexually abused for the sake of someone else's character development.

Quote

Does Victarion misuse the Dusky Lady, because she was gifted by Euron?

Yes.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

3 hours ago, Otatop1000 said:

So, I have reread chapter 22 ADWD.  And I still must say it’s not rape.  Yes she is a slave.  However, Tyrion used her as was intended, invited her to chop off his head and return it to King’s Landing. At no point did my Lord of Castlery Rock force himself upon her.  She did not ask him in Volanteneese for him to stop or say no in high Valyrian.  Peaches I respect your word and your opinion but Tyrion paid for this girl.  And did not take extra advantage, I stand by what I said, as it may upset you all.  Tyrion is a man who finds his most favorite activity of whorring no longer palatable.  If anything this Tyrion has grown and, as later chapters show, though he hates her, cares for Penny the dwarf who mocked him without knowing it.  My friends our True Warden of the West is a martyr, he has died, without dying.  He is traveling down Joseph Cambell’s hero’s journey.  And this is his low, and still he takes credit for ruining the Myrish carpet.  Cares for this girl who despised his grotesque visage.  Rape is what the Mountain does to the tavern masters daughter.  Rape is what happens to Reek and Jenye Pool.  Do not confuse a sex slave/whore who has no taste for the patron.  Is it fair that this girl is a sex slave, no.  But does Tyrion abuse given her station, No.  To classify this as rape is to say Job Snow killed the Half Hand not on his orders.  To say that Robb Stark deserved to die at the Red Wedding.  Does Victarion misuse the Dusky Lady, because she was gifted by Euron?

Well this was horrific. You describe rape then say it wasn’t rape. Let’s imagine a different act similar to this. One character goes to a place where you can beat up slaves. They beat up the slave. The slave never fights back and just looks dead inside. But according to you, that wasn’t assault right? 

Ohh! I know one from modern day. Say you work at a convenience store that has a policy “The Customer is Always Right”. You as an employee are not allowed to fight back or you will get fired. If someone comes in, cusses you out, calls you even slurs, then leaves….they haven’t committed verbal assault right? The customer is always right, and you aren’t allowed to fight back, so what they did was perfectly fine right? Your logic in practice ABOUT A MUCH LESS HORRIBLE ACT.  

“Used her as was intended,” - Fucking gross. She wasn’t intended for anything. She is a slave forced to do something she doesn’t want to do. Gross, it’s just so gross. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, Otatop1000 said:

So, I have reread chapter 22 ADWD.  And I still must say it’s not rape.  Yes she is a slave.  However, Tyrion used her as was intended, invited her to chop off his head and return it to King’s Landing. At no point did my Lord of Castlery Rock force himself upon her.  She did not ask him in Volanteneese for him to stop or say no in high Valyrian.  Peaches I respect your word and your opinion but Tyrion paid for this girl.  And did not take extra advantage, I stand by what I said, as it may upset you all.  Tyrion is a man who finds his most favorite activity of whorring no longer palatable.  If anything this Tyrion has grown and, as later chapters show, though he hates her, cares for Penny the dwarf who mocked him without knowing it.  My friends our True Warden of the West is a martyr, he has died, without dying.  He is traveling down Joseph Cambell’s hero’s journey.  And this is his low, and still he takes credit for ruining the Myrish carpet.  Cares for this girl who despised his grotesque visage.  Rape is what the Mountain does to the tavern masters daughter.  Rape is what happens to Reek and Jenye Pool.  Do not confuse a sex slave/whore who has no taste for the patron.  Is it fair that this girl is a sex slave, no.  But does Tyrion abuse given her station, No.  To classify this as rape is to say Job Snow killed the Half Hand not on his orders.  To say that Robb Stark deserved to die at the Red Wedding.  Does Victarion misuse the Dusky Lady, because she was gifted by Euron?

I think you need take a long hard look at the argument you’re making.

A whipped and abused slave is in no position to say “No” to Tyrion.

By your reasoning, nothing bad happened to Jeyne Poole, in LF’s brothel.  She was simply “used as intended.”

Edited November 7, 2023 by SeanF

[Craving Peaches]

Consent means yes, not just a lack of no.

[Lord Browndodd]

On 11/4/2023 at 7:18 PM, Alester Florent said:

...

The evidence is all circumstantial, as I say. If Tywin troubled himself to listen to Tyrion's explanations, he would probably be persuaded that Tyrion wasn't guilty. That he didn't was (a) because he doesn't like Tyrion and (b) because in his own mind he's trying to compartmentalise and thinks it'll be easier to sentence his son to death if he doesn't allow himself to consider the possibility he's innocent.

We don't know enough about the Westerosi legal system to know whether "innocent until proven guilty" is the default standard (it probably isn't) but when it's your own child in the dock, surely that's the standard you adopt in terms of the way you approach it? You look for proof of guilt and until you have it, you assume they're innocent. And even if you think your child is guilty, if you're a man of basically no principle and minimal regard for the law, you try to find some other patsy to pin it on. And Tywin isn't a regular parent working against the system. He is the system. He is in full control of the process of trial and he not only does nothing to help Tyrion, he enables the rigging of that trial against him.

...

Also, you'd think it would interest Tywin to know who has just murdered a member of the Lannister family.

[Gilbert Green]

1 hour ago, Lord Browndodd said:

Also, you'd think it would interest Tywin to know who has just murdered a member of the Lannister family.

Well, he asked Tyrion who did it.  And Tyrion's response was to be a smart ass: (paraphrase from memory): "Nobody poisoned him -- he choked on his pigeon pie."  Which Tyrion does not believe, and probably did not expect Tywin to believe either.

Seems any stick is good enough to beat Tywin with, because he's bad for other reasons.  But the criticisms here make no sense.  How does anyone know he's not interested?  It's not like we have access to his thoughts while Tyrion is not busy being a smart-ass to him.

[Gilbert Green]

On 11/7/2023 at 12:27 PM, Craving Peaches said:

Consent means yes, not just a lack of no.

I agree that Tyrion behaves badly.  But this is because of the underlying realities surrounding his actions, and the harms and foreseeable harms therefrom.  It is not because of semantics. 

Define "consent" however you like.  It won't change underlying realities.  Meanwhile,  "yes" seems a poor safeguard when dealing with prostitutes and sex slaves.  The end customer is the last person to be in a position to know if "yes" really means "yes" or not.  As often or not, it is what her pimp (or master) told her to say.  And who knows what coercion the pimp used?

Edited November 9, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

6 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

I agree that Tyrion behaves badly.  But this is because of the underlying realities surrounding his actions, and the harms and foreseeable harms therefrom.  It is not because of semantics. 

Define "consent" however you like.  It won't change underlying realities.  Meanwhile,  "yes" seems a poor safeguard when dealing with prostitutes and sex slaves.  The end customer is the last person to be in a position to know if "yes" really means "yes" or not.  As often or not, it is what her pimp (or master) told her to say.  And who knows what coercion the pimp used?

Tyrion. Tyrion knows. He comments on it. He knows she has no choice. He is aware. 

We don't need to define consent. Sex slaves don't consent. Slavery is defined as a system in which someone takes away personal freedoms (ie takes away the ability of a person to consent of not) from another party. 

This isn't about definitions. If you don't read the scene in which Tyrion obviously rapes someone as rape...it's not because of "underlying realities". Because any moral person reading that scene, knows its rape. You've made up underlying realities in order to not see what is obvious right in front of your eyes. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

I want to chime in on this, "Does Tywin think Tyrion killed Joffrey," chain. Here is my answer : Tywin doesn't care whether Tyrion killed Joffrey or not. He has been looking for a way to remove Tyrion from life without losing his "Lannister pride" since Tyrion was born. He is very happy to see Tyrion die, regardless of whether Tyrion is guilty or not. He was also happy to see Joffrey die, as Joffrey was also a hinderance to his plan. So again, I don't think Tywin actually cares that much. He is happy Tyrion is going to die. He is happy Joffrey died. 

Because again, in case anyone forgot, Tywin a terrible, terrible human being. 

[Gilbert Green]

19 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

We don't need to define consent. Sex slaves don't consent.

I remember you.  You're the guy who thinks we don't have to understand the words we use as long as we obediently bow to your authority.

A more reasonable position would be that sex slaves can and do consent, depending on how you define consent.  Because language is flexible and you are not the Word Police.  Nonetheless that there are maybe some things one should not do to slaves, depending on circumstances, whether they "consent" or not.  Because semantics do not dictate morality.

19 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Slavery is defined as a system in which someone takes away personal freedoms (ie takes away the ability of a person to consent of not) from another party. 

I see.  So defining things is okay, but only when you do it.

So when two slaves share a pint of whiskey, each is guilty of deliberately poisoning the other, because neither is capable of consenting to drink the whiskey.

19 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

This isn't about definitions.

You just supplied one. 

19 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

If you don't read the scene in which Tyrion obviously rapes someone as rape...it's not because of "underlying realities".

It is EXACTLY about the underlying realities.  It is not about what you choose to CALL the underlying realities.  What if I were a Frenchman, and preferred to call it, not "rape", but "le viol"?  Would you scream in outrage?

What if the Powers that Be, who are always redefining words, decide to redefine rape next year or next century.  Will what Tyrion did still be wrong?  In my opinion, yes.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[kissdbyfire]

36 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

A more reasonable position would be that sex slaves can and do consent, depending on how you define consent. 

I'd argue that slaves don't and can't consent as long as they're 'property'. But please enlighten me, how do you define consent and why do you think slaves "can and do consent". 

36 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Because language is flexible and you are not the Word Police.  Nonetheless that there are maybe some things one should not do to slaves, depending on circumstances, whether they "consent" or not.  Because semantics do not dictate morality.

"Maybe some things maybe one should not do to slaves"? What the actual fuck. 

[Gilbert Green]

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'd argue that slaves don't and can't consent as long as they're 'property'. But please enlighten me, how do you define consent and why do you think slaves "can and do consent".

I already supplied such an example.  One slave offers another slave to share his whiskey, and both slaves consent to share the whiskey.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Gilbert Green]

42 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

"Maybe some things maybe one should not do to slaves"? What the actual fuck. 

For example, Tyrion should not have had sex with the slave girl.  It was wrong.  Doesn't matter what you call it.

[Gilbert Green]

22 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

He has been looking for a way to remove Tyrion from life without losing his "Lannister pride" since Tyrion was born.

He has been rather lax about it, considering Tyrion is 27.