Where is this idea that Tyrion was good in the first 3 books coming from when the vast majority of bad things he has done happen in them?

[Alester Florent]

4 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

I remember you.  You're the guy who thinks we don't have to understand the words we use as long as we obediently bow to your authority.

A more reasonable position would be that sex slaves can and do consent, depending on how you define consent.  Because language is flexible and you are not the Word Police.  Nonetheless that there are maybe some things one should not do to slaves, depending on circumstances, whether they "consent" or not.  Because semantics do not dictate morality.

While I can't quite believe that we're having this conversation, ok...

It is conceptually possible that a sex slave could consent to sex. The validity of this would be easier to establish if there were no power dynamic in play: the person they are having sex with is not their master (or one of their master's clients) but a fellow slave and they are doing so recreationally in private rather than as part of the work to which they have been put, because the prospect of punishment if they refuse is much reduced. From my understanding of the experiences of people in such a scenario, I think this is unlikely, but I can concede that it's not impossible.

If we reinstate the power dynamic, and posit that the person in question is their master or the master's client, whether it's theoretically possible for a sex slave to validly consent under these circumstances is perhaps debatable. I think it's conceptually possible, but vanishingly unlikely.

However, even if it is possible for them to give valid consent, I think it is impossible for the other party to know whether that consent is valid. The difference between the slave's giving consent and merely being very good at their job is indistinguishable to them. I therefore have no trouble in saying that anyone who has sex with a sex slave is guilty of rape, because they have to assume that they are. They know that any consent purportedly given was probably coerced and that the slave in question has no realistic option but to (appear to) consent. Maybe they are so naive that they don't understand the situation and mistake "customer satisfaction" for valid consent, although I'm not sure that anyone in that environment can really be so naive and I'm not inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.

We certainly can't give Tyrion the benefit of the doubt. He understands how this all works. He understands prostitution, and sex trafficking, and slavery. He knows what's going on when he walks into the room. And the girl in question doesn't put on a pretence of consent such that he could argue he was fooled by it.

 

[Gilbert Green]

2 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

While I can't quite believe that we're having this conversation, ok...

You sound hostile.  Please tell me what you imagine I have said that you disagree with me about.

I did read your paragraphs.  Nice paragraphs.  I would have said them differently, but that's fine.

[SeanF]

It’s controversial, but there have been loving relationships between masters and slaves.  We know this, because men and women in the Roman Empire sometimes freed slaves, who were lovers, in order to marry them.  Marriage between a citizen and slave would have been illegal, so the only way they could marry was through manumission.

But, that’s a very cry from what we see here.  The Sunset Girl has been kidnapped, (probably from Westeros), whipped, and forced to service hundreds of clients.  She has been raped repeatedly, and Tyrion is just another of her rapists.  We have Tyrion’s POV, and we know he knows he’s doing wrong.

[Aldarion]

7 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

If we reinstate the power dynamic, and posit that the person in question is their master or the master's client, whether it's theoretically possible for a sex slave to validly consent under these circumstances is perhaps debatable. I think it's conceptually possible, but vanishingly unlikely.

 

There is also the Stockholm Syndrome to consider. Even people who had been abused for long time can in fact come to love their abusers and the abuse.

[Alester Florent]

Incidentally, it was exactly this sort of thing I was thinking about when I posted in the other thread about how it's much easier to talk in this kind of thread if we leave the sex out of it. We've had two pages of increasingly bad-tempered discussion after someone brought up the Sunset Girl. Admittedly, I do entirely disagree with that person and I don't blame anyone for responding to it, but it has swallowed the rest of the discussion and raised the temperature of the thread... as such topics always do.

This may also be a problem with this thread format, of course. These largely copy-pasted threads by the OP (in which the OP generally doesn't involve themselves after the first post except occasionally to defend Cersei) have very little to recommend them in general and tend to lead inexorably to discussions of the worst things that given characters have ever done.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Dofs]

9 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Admittedly, I do entirely disagree with that person and I don't blame anyone for responding to it, but it has swallowed the rest of the discussion and raised the temperature of the thread... as such topics always do.

I would blame people though. If people can't keep their emotions in check, they should go out and breath some fresh air instead of flinging insults at each other.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Dofs

[Dofs]

32 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

If you can keep your copl when people say horrible immoral things, I think that says more about you than the person who doesn’t keep their cool. Good people should lose their cool when people are being immoral. People should be pissed when people try to defend rape, to be blunt. Even Martin Luther King Jr. Was angry sometimes. Did he respond with violence? No. But did he “keep his cool”? Also no. If I had been face to face with anyone here, I would have never raised my voice. Not once. 

 

You know, I’ve mentioned here that I grew up around a lot of homophobes and racists. Guess what never made them shut up : Keeping my cool. Guess what made them rethink their shit : Losing my cool. The concept of being calm and constantly trying to find middle ground helps hate to take root, because people with hateful ideologies NEVER keep their cool. In the end, someone whi thinks that Tyrion did not rape that woman can EASILY rape a woman in real life. Can easily talk themselves out of believing it is rape. Can easily moralize and convince themselves they are doing nothing wrong. We must make those disgusting thoughts seen for what they are : Disgustint. Abusive. Rapey. 

It's ironic that you are calling someone a rapist here, even though that guy evidently hates Tyrion and has called him a rapist. But, well, from my experience of arguing with you, you really love to jump to conclusions and be judgmental overall. Is Ned you favourite character?

Also, what do you want to say about me, can you please clarify?

This is a forum we are talking about here, not a shouting match on a street. There is no power dynamics at play here where someone can make someone else go quite by shouting at them or dismissing them. If you don't agree with someone, you have all the freedom to argue with them and explain them why they are wrong in a constructive manner. If you start to fling insults, you will not be fighting hatred here because you can't shame people on a forum like that. What you will invite are only the same insults in your direction. What stops that person to accuse you that you are a liar and a potential rapist, for example? Nothing. So what now, let's devolve this thread into chaos, accusations of each other of rape, murder, what else?

What a nice environment you are creating. Totally devoid of hate.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Dofs

[Gilbert Green]

6 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

He ....sounds hostile. He does. Says the guy who literally acted like a middle school bully in their message to me.

Who is the bully?  You are just angry because I refuse to bow to your authority.

6 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Bro - I am going to be direct. It was obvious rape.

Call it "rape" if you want to.  I never said you could not.  I can certainly see what people are getting at when they call it rape.   I'm not the language bully.  That's you, not me.

I merely expressed the opinions that (1) language is arbitrary ; (2) morality is universal; and (3) what Tyrion did was wrong in any language, no matter what you call it.

6 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

The fact that you don't think it is rape, probably makes you a potential rapist.

Wow, dude.  You are vicious.   Why would you say such a thing?

I never said it was not rape.  I said it depends on the definition of "rape' used.  Which is practically a truism.

To me, it lies somewhere along the continuum between a violent rape (which is what some people have traditionally meant by the word "rape") and visiting a prostitute (which, in my opinion, you also should not do, and for related reasons).

Would it qualify as "rape" in your jurisdiction?  Or some lesser crime?  Dunno.  Check your local statutes.  In any event, don't emulate Tyrion.  What he did was evil.

When people call Tyrion's actions "rape" because the girl did not "consent", I understand what they mean, and more or less agree.  They are calling it out as wrong, and saying why it is wrong as well.  But I also see that they are approaching the issue from a fairly narrow linguistic and conceptual paradigm.  Part of the problem is that men are not mystical mind readers with the magical power to know whether a woman's "consent" is "valid" by some definition.  My own solution to this is the conclusion that sometimes a man has the moral duty to hold back even when a woman appears to be consenting and perhaps even actually is consenting.

Some are of the opinion that if a women does not consent, then hands off; but if she does consent you should definitely go for it.  I agree with the former, but not the latter. 

7 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

You are a bad person. I've thought this for awhile, but...you are a bad person. You are a bad person, who has bad morals. Feel free to report me, because someone has to say it. Sometimes when people are just horrible human beings, you have to say it out loud. 

I have no desire to report you.  You are projecting.  You're the one calling me a rapist.  Why don't you go hit that report button.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

5 hours ago, Dofs said:

It's ironic that you are calling someone a rapist here, even though that guy evidently hates Tyrion and has called him a rapist. But, well, from my experience of arguing with you, you really love to jump to conclusions and be judgmental overall. Is Ned you favourite character?

Also, what do you want to say about me, can you please clarify?

This is a forum we are talking about here, not a shouting match on a street. There is no power dynamics at play here where someone can make someone else go quite by shouting at them or dismissing them. If you don't agree with someone, you have all the freedom to argue with them and explain them why they are wrong in a constructive manner. If you start to fling insults, you will not be fighting hatred here because you can't shame people on a forum like that. What you will invite are only the same insults in your direction. What stops that person to accuse you that you are a liar and a potential rapist, for example? Nothing. So what now, let's devolve this thread into chaos, accusations of each other of rape, murder, what else?

What a nice environment you are creating. Totally devoid of hate.

Yeah man, I have a quote for you : 

“Addressing hate speech does not mean limiting or prohibiting freedom of speech. It means keeping hate speech from escalating into something more dangerous, particularly incitement to discrimination, hostility and violence, which is prohibited under international law.”

From the United Nations. By allowing people to talk openly about how something thst is obviously rape isn’t rape, it can spread the idea that doing certain actions (rape actions) are acceptable or excusable actions, when in fact, they are not. You can keep trying to make this something it isn’t Dofs, all you want. But this is my position : Raping women is wrong If you excuse rape and try to pretend it isn’t rape, that is bad. It is a common technique men use to down play horrible actions they take. Again, say whatever you want, several people on this forum have been very direct in calling rape not rape. They have spent a lot ot, A LOT OF effort trying to protect a rapist from being called a rapist, and yes, I think that is bad. Period. 

[Gilbert Green]

Good grief.  Now he's threatening to report us to the United Nations for hate crimes.

And if anyone dares point out that the word "rape" has had multiple definitions over the years, and decades, and jurisdictions, that counts as "excusing rape", in his book.  Even if you are not excusing the bad behavior that you don't necessarily call rape. 

[Dofs]

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Yeah man, I have a quote for you : 

“Addressing hate speech does not mean limiting or prohibiting freedom of speech. It means keeping hate speech from escalating into something more dangerous, particularly incitement to discrimination, hostility and violence, which is prohibited under international law.”

From the United Nations. By allowing people to talk openly about how something thst is obviously rape isn’t rape, it can spread the idea that doing certain actions (rape actions) are acceptable or excusable actions, when in fact, they are not. You can keep trying to make this something it isn’t Dofs, all you want. But this is my position : Raping women is wrong If you excuse rape and try to pretend it isn’t rape, that is bad. It is a common technique men use to down play horrible actions they take. Again, say whatever you want, several people on this forum have been very direct in calling rape not rape. They have spent a lot ot, A LOT OF effort trying to protect a rapist from being called a rapist, and yes, I think that is bad. Period. 

Can you please re-read my post and reply to me again?

[SeanF]

This thread needs to die.

[Gilbert Green]

Time for part I, I guess.

TYRION:  A RETROSPECTIVE

PART I: TYRION SUCKS

[at Winterfell]
TYRION: Nice wolf!
GHOST: Grrr. You suck, Tyrion!
TYRION: Shy, isn't he!
GHOST: Grrr. I mean it!
JON: Sit, Ghost! You can touch him now, Tyrion.
GHOST: Great. Thanks a lot, BUDDY.
JON: If I wasn't here, he would tear your throat out.
GHOST: Yup!

TYRION: Hey Jon, aren't you a bastard, just like me.
JON: Um, yeah.
TYRION: Great! I can give you lessons in envy, self-pity and resentment. After one short lesson, you will be a total prick to everyone at the Night Watch; After two lessons you will want to kill your father, rape your sister, and strangle prostitutes.
JON: Hey, wait a minute! You're not a bastard. You are true born!
TYRION: You do not understand the POWER of self-pity.

[at breakfast]
TYRION: MMMM! Bacon burnt black! Tastes like in my dreams where I chow down on my family after roasting them with my fiery breath. [Crunch, Chomp]
TOMMEN: Mommy, I don't WANT Bran to die.
CERSEI: None of us do, Sweetie.
TYRION: Well, [crunch, chomp] you may get your wish?
CERSEI: Eh?
TYRION: The maester says he's going to live.
TOMMEN: Yippee!
TYRION: The maester says he might even wake up ...
JAMIE: ....!
TYRION: ... and start talking ...
CERSEI: ....!
TYRION: ... unless of course he develops some unforeseen fatal complication.
CERSEI & JAMIE: hmmm!
SUMMER: THANKS A LOT TYRION! YOU SUCK!
CERSEI: That infernal howling again! Those wolves are NOT coming South with us.
TYRION: Yeah, well, I'm going NORTH. I want to see the Wall!
JAMIE: Heheh! Planning to take the Black, little bro?
TYRION: Me celibate? No way! WHORES! WHORES! WHORES! Hee hee. WHORES!
FANS: OMG! Tyrion is so witty and clever!
TOMMEN: Mommy, what are whores?
CERSEI: You suck, Tyrion!
TYRION: I hope that boy wakes up. Hee hee.
JAIME: Hey, whose side are you on!
TYRION: You know how much I LOVE my family. [crunch, chomp]
FANS: Tyrion rocks! Whores. Hee hee.

TYRION: Hey Benjen, I want to go North with you & Jon.
BENJEN: Are you sure? I don't think you will like the weather.
TYRION: You hate me because I'm a Lannister. I'll get you for this!
[later, on the North road]
TYRION: Brrrr, it's cold
BENJEN: Here, you can have my coat.
TYRION: Great! A coat. Thanks.
BENJEN: You're welcome. [shiver]
TYRION: HAHA! REVENGE IS SWEET!

TYRION: Okay, Jon, you have mastered Lesson One. Time to begin Lesson Two.
GHOST: GRRRR! NO! ENOUGH! STOP! CHOMP!
JON: Down, Ghost!
TYRION: Gosh! Why did he attack me?

[at the Wall]
[Sniffing the Stew]
JON: Mmmm! It has MUTTON!
TYRION: Yuck! It has VEGETABLES!

[eating crabs]
TYRION: [Acts like a giant prick]
AEMON: A giant has come to piss on us, here at the edge of the world.
TYRION: I have been called many things, but never a giant.
AEMON: I think it is true, nonetheless.
TYRION (blushing): You are too kind.
AEMON (aside): I wasn't being kind. I was thinking of kind that eats children.
GHOST (aside): Yeah! Nobody understands me either.

[top of the wall]
TYRION: If I touch Ghost, will he chew my hand off?
GHOST: Oh Jon? Can I? Please?
JON: Not with me here.
GHOST: Damn!
TYRION: Jon, you're my bestest buddy. I loves ya like a bro.
JON: I feel the same, Tyrion. You're like family.
TYRION: Speaking of family, any word of your Uncle Benjen?
JON: No. If he doesn't return, I'll go out and find him.
TYRION: But who will go after you, if you don't return?
JON: Why, my bestest buddy, of course.
TYRION: Er ... !

[back at Winterfell]
ROBB: Any member of the Night Watch is welcome here, but you suck.
TYRION: No fair! I came to be nice to Bran. I drew a picture of a saddle for him
ROBB: Hmm. Perhaps I misjudged you.
SUMMER: NO! GRRR! He REALLY DOES suck!
GREY WIND: GRRR! I agree! He REALLY sucks!
SHAGGYDOG: GRRR! LETS KILL HIM.
TYRION: ARRGH! Call them OFF!
STARK BOYS: Summer! Grey! Shaggy! HEEL!!!
THEON: The wolves think you suck, Tyrion.
ROBB: Wow! They sure do.

[at the crossroads]
INNKEEPER: Sorry, we're full up.
TYRION: Throw someone out. I am a LANNISTER and I want a room. My traveling companions, including Yoren who, though elderly, is not my equal in rank, can sleep in the stables.
GUESTS: Wow! What a prick!
CATELYN: Tyrion is an evil baby killer! Arrest him, guests.
GUESTS: Sounds plausible.
[Guests seize Tyrion]
TYRION: Hey! You are all just PREJUDICED! .

[on the east road]
BRONN: The Dothraki prefer horsemeat to pork.
TYRION: I'm no Dothraki. I my dreams, I always eat the knight first.

(later)
TYRION: Lady Stark, you need every sword. Arm me and my servant Jyck, or we will all be raped and murdered by Evil Hicks.
CATELYN: Oh, all right. Ser Rodrik, arm the prisoners.
JYCK: Here come the Evil Hicks, m'lord! I shall fight bravely.
(Jyck fights bravely, while Tyrion hides behind a rock).
JYCK: AARRGH! [dies]
TYRION: Ha ha! Idiot!

[At the Aerie]
SWEETROBIN: Mommy, Tyrion sucks. Can we throw him out the high window?
LYSA: Yes, dear. But first he must have trial by combat.
VARDIS: Hi. I'm Sir Vardis. I represent truth, honor, justice, chivalry, and Lord Sweetrobin.
BRONN: Hi. I'm Bronn. I represent selfishness, evil, killing babies for money, and Lord Tyrion.
LYSA: Let the Trial by Combat begin.
[clash, clang]
BRONN: Your powers are weak, old man.
[clash, clang]
VARDIS: You cannot win. If you strike me down, I shall become.... OOH! OUCH! ARGHH!
BRONN: [chop, splish, hack]
VARDIS: [thud!]
FANS: HOORAY!
SWEETROBIN: Can we throw him out the window now, Mommy?
LYSA: No dear, the gods have judged him innocent.
SWEETROBIN: But MOM! He SUCKS!
FANS: We hate you, Sweetrobin!

[Lee-Sensei]

On 11/2/2023 at 5:02 PM, Gilbert Green said:

[a blast from the past]

TYRION SUCKS: A RETROSPECTIVE

PART II: POOR TYRION

 

[in the mountains]

TYRION: Hey Bronn! Want to hear my tale of woe?

BRONN: No.

TYRION: When I was just a lad, Jaime and I rescued a starving unwashed common girl who was being chased by brigands. While Jaime pursued them, I took her to an inn, got her drunk, and had my way with her. She cried when I took her maidenhood. That sucked! But then she said she loved me. That rocked! So I married her. Then dad found out. He was pissed. He made Jaime tell me the truth. She was a whore.

BRONN: A virgin whore?

TYRION: Yes. Jaime paid the pimp double. Anyway, once I realized that she did not really love me for my dong, I was devastated. So I gang-raped her. My dong made me do it … and my dad … and the devil. They all made me do it. An entire platoon of soldiers helped too.

BRONN: Wow, that really … . So what became of her then?

TYRION: Dunno! Who cares! She never really loved me, the bitch.

BRONN: I would have killed the man who did that to me.

TYRION: My dad? Jaime? You may get the chance. A Lannister pays his debts.

BRONN: No … I mean … if I was a wench, I would kill the man who … er … oh never mind.

TYRION: Poor, poor Tyrion!

FANS: <sob>

 

[shortly]

HICKS: Hee Haw! We are Evil Hicks, and we totally suck. Prepare to be raped and murdered, foolish travelers.

BRONN: (leaping to his feet) Who dies first!

TYRION: No, Bronn! Hear me, Evil Hicks! I am Tyrion Lannister. My father is Tywin Lannister, the richest and most evil of the lowland lords. See us safely through these mountains, and you shall be richly rewarded.

SHAGGA: I shall chop off your manhood and …

HEAD HICK: Quiet, Shagga. Halfman, I am intrigued by your offer. What can you give us? Gold? Silk? Steel? Swords? Mail?

TYRION: Not just that! I can offer you the Vale of Arryn. You can rape and murder EVERYBODY!

HICKS: HEE HAW!!!

TYRION: (aside) Take that, Lysa Arryn!

 

[back at the crossroads]

[iNKEEPER, now a corpse, hangs from a tree]

TYRION: (to INKEEPER) A room, a meal, and a flagon of wine! That was all I asked.

INKEEPER: […]

TYRION: Well?

INKEEPER: […]

TYRION: (walking past) Poor, poor Tyrion!

 

[inside]

TYRION: Hey dad! Want to hear my evil plan to turn the Vale of Arryn into a smoking wasteland?

TYWIN: What?

TYRION: I said … Do you want to hear my evil plan to …

MESSENGER: My Lord! The Stark host is moving down the causeway.

TYWIN: Hear me, Brave and Fearsome Hicks. The Stark host is approaching. Fight for us, and you shall be richly rewarded.

HICKS: Lion-Lord, we already have Half-man's promises. We have no need of yours.

TYWIN: Good point! But what would you rather do? Rape and murder helpless peasants, or fight bravely against fierce and skilled warriors?

SHAGGA: Er … um … well … Shagga want to … FIGHT BRAVELY.

HICKS: Yes. Hicks want to FIGHT FIERCE WARRIORS. We will march with you, Lion-Lord. HEE HAW HEE HAW HEE HAW HEE HAW!

TYRION: I thought you were supposed to be EVIL hicks.

HICKS: And Halfman will march with us.

TYRION: Er…

 

[later, before the battle]

TYRION: Bronn, most evil of minions, I have a task for you. I want you to fetch me an EAGER HAPPY whore. Jyck used to fetch me sullen, miserable whores, or timid whores who used to scream in horror at my ugly purple dong. I DON'T LIKE THAT. Make sure it's an EAGER HAPPY whore. I also want young and pretty.

BRONN: Gotcha! [exit]

BRONN'S VOICE: (offscreen) Surrender that wench in the name of LANNISTER!

(offscreen) Clash! Ching! Clash! Chang!

WOMAN'S VOICE: (offscreen) EEEK!

PODRICK: What's that noise?

TYRION: What noise?

PODRICK: I thought I heard a woman scream.

TYRION: Well, I'm sure it has nothing to do with me. I sent for an EAGER HAPPY whore.

 

[later]

[enter BRONN and SHAE]

TYRION: (to Bronn) Is this her?

SHAE: HI! I'M AN EAGER HAPPY WHORE! (Bouncy, bouncy, bouncy).

TYRION: Okay, listen up, whore. I am a LANNISTER; a rich and powerful lord, and you are a whore. I shall keep you as long as I want, and pay you as much as I please. How do you feel about that?

SHAE: EAGER and HAPPY!

TYRION: Okay, but I will want more than just eager happy sex. I want you to laugh at my jokes, even if they are not funny, and things like that.

SHAE: Hahaha. But m'lord, your jokes ARE funny.

 

[later]

TYRION: Where'd you get her, Bronn?

BRONN: From a knight. He was loath to give her up, but my blade at his throat changed his thinking.

TYRION: I mislike your methods.

BRONN: [shrug] Fine, I shall take her back.

TYRION: Er, on second thought, I LIKE your methods. But you have made me an ENEMY. What shall we do about THAT!

TYRION & BRONN: [whisper whisper] don't want him beside me in the battle [whisper whisper] dad put me in the vanguard [whisper whisper]

SHAE: M'lord, I woke and heard voices – something like "put my Enemy in the van …"

TYRION: What?

SHAE: I mean … I awoke and found you gone, m'lord.

TYRION: So, tell me about my Enemy … I mean … the man you were boinking before me.

SHAE: Oh … he's nobody … no threat to you … he's just a small man.

TYRION: Did you just say SMALL MAN!!?

SHAE: Oops!

TYRION: So what am I? A GIANT?

SHAE: Er … um … you're … a giant? YES! MY GIANT! MY GIANT OF A LANNISTER! And I am your EAGER HAPPY WHORE!

TYRION: Yes … well… that's okay then.

 

[later]

TYRION: Dad, I hate you. You don't love me.

TYWIN: Uh oh! This crap again!

TYRION: You sent me into battle with the Hicks. You don't care if I DIE!

TYWIN: Jaime does not whine like this. He is only TOO eager to rush into battle.

TYRION: But he's bigger than me. You just like him best and it's NOT FAIR!

MESSENGER: My Lord! Terrible news! Jaime was ambushed and captured by the Starks, as he rushed to battle.

TYWIN: Oh no! THEY HAVE MY SON!

TYRION: SEE! You like him best!

TYWIN: Enough, Tyrion. I have work for you. I need you to go to King's Landing, and rule in my stead, as Hand of the King.

TYRION: Uh … gosh, why me? Why not Uncle Kevan?

TYWIN: You're my son!

TYRION: You're only saying that because Jaime has been captured.

TYWIN: Tyrion, will you please stop whining, and get your ass to King's Landing.

TYRION: Okay, okay!

TYWIN: And one more thing, Tyrion.

TYRION: What?

TYWIN: When you get to court, no more whores.

TYRION: See? You don't love me. Poor Tyrion!

 

[later]

TYRION: Shae, I am taking you to King's Landing. How do you feel about that?

SHAE: Um … EAGER … and … HAPPY?

That's funny, but Tyrion was like... 13. He was even younger than her. There are many things to fault him on, but I think he was still mostly innocent at that point.

[Gilbert Green]

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

That's funny, but Tyrion was like... 13. He was even younger than her. There are many things to fault him on, but I think he was still mostly innocent at that point.

He is 26 when he tells the story to Bronn, though.  And he has not lifted a finger to look for her for the last 13 years.  Because, as he sees it, there is nothing in it for him.  It never occurs to him that he owes HER anything.

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

He is 26 when he tells the story to Bronn, though.  And he has not lifted a finger to look for her for the last 13 years.  Because, as he sees it, there is nothing in it for him.  It never occurs to him that he owes HER anything.

Why would he when she was a prostitute that fake married him as far as he knew?

[Aldarion]

11 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

“Addressing hate speech does not mean limiting or prohibiting freedom of speech. It means keeping hate speech from escalating into something more dangerous, particularly incitement to discrimination, hostility and violence, which is prohibited under international law.”

 

Actually, yes, it does mean limiting or prohibiting freedom of speech. "Hate speech" is just a fancy whitewashed name for what back during Yugoslavia was known as a "verbal delict" - which was anything that the ruling Communist party didn't like. Whole idea of "hate speech" is just another facet of the same tyranny, and is something immature people like to use when they run out of arguments.

Now that is out of the way...

11 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

From the United Nations. By allowing people to talk openly about how something thst is obviously rape isn’t rape, it can spread the idea that doing certain actions (rape actions) are acceptable or excusable actions, when in fact, they are not. You can keep trying to make this something it isn’t Dofs, all you want. But this is my position : Raping women is wrong If you excuse rape and try to pretend it isn’t rape, that is bad. It is a common technique men use to down play horrible actions they take. Again, say whatever you want, several people on this forum have been very direct in calling rape not rape. They have spent a lot ot, A LOT OF effort trying to protect a rapist from being called a rapist, and yes, I think that is bad. Period. 

Now this I actually agree with, but it doesn't change the fact that you had been acting incredibly immature about the whole thing. And while Tyrion is definitely at fault there (as I understand we are talking about the Sunset girl?), main blame lies with people running the brothel. Still doesn't excuse what Tyrion did, though.

Take a breath, cool down, and stop policing people's thoughts.

[SaffronLady]

Should I just attempt to summon the Ranhammer or something?

Ran's hammer.

Hammer of the Ranters.

lol this hammer referecing is stupid

[Willam Stark]

44 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Should I just attempt to summon the Ranhammer or something?

Ran's hammer.

Hammer of the Ranters.

lol this hammer referecing is stupid

He or one of the mods already used it.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

5 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Actually, yes, it does mean limiting or prohibiting freedom of speech. "Hate speech" is just a fancy whitewashed name for what back during Yugoslavia was known as a "verbal delict" - which was anything that the ruling Communist party didn't like. Whole idea of "hate speech" is just another facet of the same tyranny, and is something immature people like to use when they run out of arguments.

Now that is out of the way...

Now this I actually agree with, but it doesn't change the fact that you had been acting incredibly immature about the whole thing. And while Tyrion is definitely at fault there (as I understand we are talking about the Sunset girl?), main blame lies with people running the brothel. Still doesn't excuse what Tyrion did, though.

Take a breath, cool down, and stop policing people's thoughts.

I have never been heated. Not once. You are reading that behavior into me, and it doesn't make it the reality. I am very calm. Disliking rape-apologists doesn't mean I have to be heated about it. 

Also, to be clear, limiting hate speech is good. If a person professes desire to kill or subjugate a group of people, that is bad. They are limiting freedoms through their words, and fully admitting to a desire to limit the freedoms of others. There is long quote I wish I had saved in which they talk about how allowing hate speech and hateful rhetoric to exist allows that rhetoric/people to eventually take away the rights of others. The Veimer Republic, for example, was all about allowing all forms of speech (it's part of the reason the Nazis were able to rise to power).

But also, again, I am not a government. I am an individual. If you think all speech should be protected, then you should also believe that I should be able to say, "Don't do hate speech." as then that would also be my freedom. 

Oh, and I've been raped. The perpetrator made these same kind of excuses for their actions as I've seen here. You tell me, if you'd been raped, and had the person trying to convince others that you were "asking for it"...would you be as calm as I'm being when you see those same kind of ideas pop up? I doubt it. 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall