Israel - Hamas War X

[Mudguard]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

BBC reports that AFP journalist heard the Israeli evacuation order over the loudspeakers.

It's an odd story.  But unless there is recorded video or audio, it's going to be hard to prove exactly what happened.

Something that confuses me though is that there were a lot of reports that thousands of civilians were also at the hospital, in addition to the 600 patients.  Was this number accurate?  If so, when did those civilians leave?  Because it sounds like just 450 people left today, leaving around 120 patients that couldn't be moved to remain.

 

[Zorral]

17 NOVEMBER 2023
On Non-Violent Resistance
Manal A. Jamal

https://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2023/november/on-non-violent-resistance?

Quote

 

.... Often completely ignored, however, is that from the beginning, non-violent resistance has been central to the Palestinians’ struggle for freedom.

In 1972, the Palestine National Council decided that the locus of the struggle for Palestinian self-determination should include the West Bank and Gaza Strip. By the following year, the Palestine National Front (PNF), an autonomous clandestine umbrella organisation, had emerged in the occupied territories. Its main tasks included co-ordinating non-violent strikes and demonstrations throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip to protest against Israeli rule and to reaffirm Palestinian demands for self-representation.

Israel responded with such measures as house demolitions, curfews, deportations and administrative detention (incarceration without trial or charge), forms of collective punishment which became everyday features of the military occupation. After occupying the West Bank and Gaza Strip in 1967, Israel banned any overt symbol of Palestinian nationalism, including flags and maps.

In 1976, municipal elections in the West Bank were won by nationalist mayoral candidates, against opponents who had been selected by the Israeli military administration. Along with journalists, union organisers, and the leaders of students’ and women’s groups, the new mayors established the National Guidance Committee in 1978. The NGC’s main objectives were to protest against the Egyptian-Israeli Camp David Accords, as well as any Israeli-appointed bodies that sought to control Palestinians in the occupied territories, and to demand self-determination. Again, protest was expressed through co-ordinated non-violent strikes and demonstrations.

Within a few years, Israel outlawed the NGC and arrested or deported key organisers, and put most of the nationalist mayors they had not deported under town arrest. In 1980 Israeli extremists attacked the mayors of Ramallah and Nablus with car bombs, severely injuring both men. The perpetrators received light jail terms and some were eventually acquitted of all charges. In 1982 the Palestinian mayors were removed from office and replaced by appointees of the Israeli civil administration.

By the early 1980s, all factions of the Palestine Liberation Organisation had established grassroots structures throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The volunteer-based organisations included trade unions, student groups and women’s groups. Israel targeted the representatives of these institutions, placing many of them under ‘administrative detention,’ and the routine intimidation and humiliation extended to the participants in these mass-based organisations.

Israel also targeted Palestine’s advocates for non-violence resistance. In 1983, for example, Mubarak Awad, sometimes known as ‘the Palestinian Gandhi’, established the Palestinian Centre for the Study of Non-Violence. He wrote the twelve-page blueprint for passive resistance in the territories. In 1988, Israel deported Awad on charges of inciting a civil uprising.

When the First Intifada broke out in December 1987, the collective decision to refrain from the use of violence – stone-throwing aside – was strategic. In the first weeks of co-ordinated mass upheaval and civil disobedience, an array of local popular committees were organised throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip that would sustain and strengthen the Intifada. The committees were responsible for such tasks as preparing for emergencies, cultivating self-sufficiency (including home-schooling for children) and night-time security patrols, as well as organising the daily activities of the Intifada: strikes, demonstrations, boycotts of Israeli products and non-payment of taxes.

In response, the Israeli military confronted unarmed protesters with live ammunition, jailed or deported organisers, imposed curfews, cut off water, electricity and fuel supplies, demolished houses, closed schools for months on end and shut universities for three years. By the time Israel and the PLO signed the Declaration of Principles that began the Oslo Process in September 1993, Israel had killed more than 1070 Palestinians (almost all unarmed) and imprisoned over 120,000 (according to B’Tselem figures). No family was spared the collective punishment. Forty-seven Israeli civilians were killed during the Intifada. ....

 

 

[Luzifer's right hand]

42 minutes ago, Zorral said:

17 NOVEMBER 2023
On Non-Violent Resistance
Manal A. Jamal

https://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2023/november/on-non-violent-resistance?

 

I like it that your quoted part starts without this.

Quote

The Western media has all too often focused on the Palestinian armed struggle, from Black September to the PLO’s armed presence in Lebanon, the suicide of bombings of the late 1990s and early 2000s, the Second Intifada and Hamas’s more recent missile attacks on Israel. Often completely ignored, however, is that from the beginning, non-violent resistance has been central to the Palestinians’ struggle for freedom.

No mention at all on why western media focuses on the "armed struggle" as the article calls terror attacks that it avoids mentioning. 1972 is actually the year of the Munich terror attack. 

The next ten years saw multiple terror attacks abroad.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Luzifer's right hand

[Relic]

4 hours ago, Darryk said:

They're not doing a good job of rescuing the hostages 

One might conclude that rescuing hostages is not the priority here.

[Craving Peaches]

Reportedly men and women are being separated, with only women being allowed past the checkpoint to evacuate to South Gaza.

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

The next ten years saw multiple terror attacks abroad.

So ... you deny there was ever any non-violent protests by Palestinians.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Relic said:

One might conclude that rescuing hostages is not the priority here.

It really is, otherwise it wouldn't be Israel's central demand. 

[Luzifer's right hand]

8 minutes ago, Zorral said:

So ... you deny there was ever any non-violent protests by Palestinians.

I don't but this article downplays the violent aspect from the very start. 

[Zorral]

It doesn't downplay anything ... the subject is Palestinians doing non-violent protests and the consequences to them when they did.  What's so difficult to understand about that?

But since it is impossible to understand, let's get really annoying.

Hillary Clinton Is Lying About the History Between Hamas and Israel
The way Clinton blames Hamas for all the violence shows what’s wrong with the U.S. perspective on the Middle East.

By Jon Schwarz

Before joining First Look Media, Jon Schwarz worked for Michael Moore’s Dog Eat Dog Films and was a research producer for Moore’s “Capitalism: A Love Story.” He’s contributed to many publications, including the New Yorker, the New York Times, The Atlantic, the Wall Street Journal, Mother Jones, and Slate, as well as NPR and "Saturday Night Live." In 2003, he collected on a $1,000 bet that Iraq would have no weapons of mass destruction.

https://theintercept.com/2023/11/17/hillary-clinton-hamas-israel/

 

 

[Craving Peaches]

A UN-run school in the Jabalia camp has been struck with lots of casualties reported.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Bael's Bastard]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

It really is, otherwise it wouldn't be Israel's central demand. 

Can't tell you how many fellow progressive Jews I know, Jews who generally denied or downplayed the seriousness of antisemitism on the left, who have had their whole world shattered seeing Jews blamed for Hamas using Gazans as human shields and seeing Jews accused of caring more about killing Gazans than freeing the hostages.

[Rippounet]

Another voice from the Israeli left, historian Gadi Algazi, considered one of the first refuzniks refusing to serve in the occupied territories:

Quote

 

What is typical of Israel's policy is to eliminate other options and then claim to have no choice but to resort to bombing. Israel destroyed the Palestinian national movement and, in return, faced the emergence of Hamas. In Lebanon, Israel destroyed the Amal movement and received Hezbollah in response. Each time, Israel worked to eliminate organizations willing to reach a historical compromise, ending up face-to-face with enemies to bomb.

A recurring image in Israel is the self-perception of being a "villa in the jungle": a jungle that needs to be regularly trimmed. Commentators and military figures once again promise that a final and total victory is within reach, allowing for a fresh start. It is not surprising, therefore, that it is now so difficult to envision political alternatives to violence. The policy of pursuing occupation and eliminating alternatives has precisely resulted in despair and a pervasive sense of not having a choice. Those who hesitate today to call for an end to the war— as if what has transpired so far is not already horrifying enough— should at least consider the real long-term consequences, what people will remember, and how the cycle of bloody vengeance begets more bloodshed.

[...]

The number of deaths in Gaza is not absent from public discourse, but the vast majority of people refuse to acknowledge the suffering of the Palestinians. This is not the first time, but the extent of the phenomenon is unprecedented.

It's important to keep in mind that the vast majority of Israelis are unaware of the Arab world and Gaza, and this ignorance has been cultivated and maintained for years. Few know that in 2017, thousands of Gazans protested against Hamas and were suppressed. There is little interest in how Hamas has tightly controlled Gaza with an iron fist.

This allows for the conflation of all Palestinians in Gaza with Hamas. More fundamentally, our historical responsibility in the suffering of Palestinian refugees, who remain the majority in the enclave, is often overlooked.

[...]

What seems more dangerous to me at the moment is the idea of expelling Palestinians from Gaza. It's a very dangerous and longstanding dream, expressed since the 1950s and revived by Ariel Sharon in the 1970s...

Currently, an attempt to achieve this goal—frankly referred to as a second Nakba ("catastrophe")—could destabilize Arab regimes. A more achievable goal, already articulated by the military, is to shrink the Gaza ghetto, concentrating two million people in the south of the enclave after reducing the north to ruins.

[...]

In the short term, Hamas has strengthened popular adherence to the prevailing ideology, evident in the rise of nationalism. However, there is a simultaneous sense that the Israeli state, operating in the name of its citizens, lacks the ability to address social, political, and security issues. It is perceived as capable only of waging war.

The State of Israel is currently reduced to a large war machine and seems incapable of providing adequate psychological support for the survivors of October 7. It is also inadequate in materially and institutionally assisting its population. Without civil society, the daily needs of the most vulnerable would go unmet. This exposure of the state's incompetence, combined with racism prevalent in a segment of society and heightened fear after October 7, opens the door to private armed militias and fascist tendencies. Among those opposing Netanyahu today, some hope for a leader who is even more extreme.

https://www.mediapart.fr/journal/international/171123/chasser-les-palestiniens-de-gaza-est-un-reve-tres-dangereux-et-deja-ancien

 

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

15 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Can't tell you how many fellow progressive Jews I know, Jews who generally denied or downplayed the seriousness of antisemitism on the left, who have had their whole world shattered seeing Jews blamed for Hamas using Gazans as human shields and seeing Jews accused of caring more about killing Gazans than freeing the hostages.

It was always there. They just didn't want to believe it. 

[Zorral]

FROM THE LIVEBLOG OF FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 17, 2023
IDF suspends soldier who threw stun grenade into West Bank mosque

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-suspends-soldier-who-threw-stun-grenade-into-west-bank-mosque/

 

[Rippounet]

Lots of people on the left always had legitimate doubts about building a Jewish ethno-State. Lots of Zionists and Israelis as well, if you look back to the past (as of now, the Israeli left has almost disappeared).
As a rule, people on the left are not fond of ethno-States and ethno-nationalism. But many, for reasons of their own, were willing to delude themselves into believing that a Jewish ethno-State might be different.
What's happening today shatters that illusion, because it makes it increasingly difficult to distinguish Netanyahu and his government's policies from Israel itself, as a project, because for most people Israel is still a recent creation, which means the way it is perceived is largely dependent on what's happening in the here and now.
And the more this goes on, and the harder it will be: Israel brazenly committing war crimes in front the entire world will mechanically lead almost everyone to question whether it should exist at all.
Is it unfair? Yes. Lots of other States get away with war crimes without seeing their very existence called into question. But dismissing all left-wing criticism of Israel as anti-semitic won't help. Netanyahu's Israel eagerly falling for Hamas's trap is the problem here... Right now the greatest threat to Israel isn't Hamas, it's Netanyahu.

[Relic]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

It really is, otherwise it wouldn't be Israel's central demand. 

A public demand, sure. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

9 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

As a rule, people on the left are not fond of ethno-States and ethno-nationalism. 

Almost everyone on the left is cool with Japan being an ethnostate. There are numerous examples of ethnostates all across Europe that don't get treated the same way by the left either. 

But keep France French, right? 

8 minutes ago, Relic said:

A public demand, sure. 

It's their central demand. They've said a ceasefire can happen if the hostages are returned. Hamas has called for a one sided ceasefire without guaranteeing every hostage will be released.  

[Kalbear]

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Almost everyone on the left is cool with Japan being an ethnostate. There are numerous examples of ethnostates all across Europe that don't get treated the same way by the left either. 

But keep France French, right? 

It's their central demand. They've said a ceasefire can happen if the hostages are returned. Hamas has called for a one sided ceasefire without guaranteeing every hostage will be released.  

They have not said that, actually. They've said that they can do a limited ceasefire if a large amount of hostages are released that will only last a few days.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hanegbi-says-no-ceasefire-unless-hamas-releases-a-massive-number-of-hostages/

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

13 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

They have not said that, actually. They've said that they can do a limited ceasefire if a large amount of hostages are released that will only last a few days.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hanegbi-says-no-ceasefire-unless-hamas-releases-a-massive-number-of-hostages/

But Hamas, through their limited public statements, has said that a ceasefire to them means Israel stops attacking while they're open about their right to continue attacking. In other words, not a real ceasefire at all. 

[Rippounet]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Almost everyone on the left is cool with Japan being an ethnostate. There are numerous examples of ethnostates all across Europe that don't get treated the same way by the left either.

That's pretty poor whataboutism tbh. These states are not in a position where they keep violating international law on a regular basis, and no one on the left has ever been cool with Japanese war crimes. In fact, Japan is very high on the list of historical evil ethno-nationalist states, and people are only "cool" with it because it isn't particularly militant today. I personally learned about the gaikokujin tooroku when it still existed, and I was taught about its deeper signification as well.

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

But keep France French, right?

That was the slogan of the far-right Front national, whose successors have recently been marching in support of Israel.
Not sure what point you think you're making here, but they're being coherent on this one.