Israel - Hamas War X

[TheKitttenGuard]

Haaretz stated IDF took down the AL Shifa tweet and video.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-15/ty-article-live/two-officers-killed-in-gaza-fighting-idf-enters-part-of-shifa-hospital/0000018b-d124-df9a-ab8b-dfec8ca10000?liveBlogItemId=173409564#173409564

Netanyahu really needs to leave if he really care for Israel. This is a farce, if Israel really wants to commit an act of Genocide they need to start to understand that there is big price coming and they are not just going to be viewed as the aggrieved party. The sad truth that the U.S appear hellbent on ignoring this fact and Nentayahu is symbol of all this.

[Mudguard]

At this point, the IDF needs to immediately let in independent journalists to document the search.  In the first day, there does not appear to have been any fighting within the hospital, so I don't see how they can claim it's too dangerous, if the journalists are willing to accept the risks.  

If they had presented videos and pictures of an underground HQ after the first several hours or so, I wouldn't have any problems believing the evidence.  It would have been impossible to stage things that quickly, assuming there was an extensive amount of evidence being shown, and not just a handful of go bags that could have easily been placed in 5 minutes.  But after a day or two and after coming up embarrassingly short during the first day?  People are going to have doubts about the new evidence, which could potentially be mitigated by allowing journalists to document the search.

But the longer it takes for them to show us the evidence, the harder it will be to believe that it wasn't staged.  Already, it doesn't make any sense for them to not have gone directly for the HQ.  They say they know exactly where it is, but instead of going right for it, they spend a day searching buildings outside the area of interest for random shit.  Makes zero sense.  And it's not like this search is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.  We are talking about trying to find Hamas' HQ, when they already claim its location is well known, and they already have architectural designs of the complex, including the subterranean additions. 

I think it's very likely they've searched the basements of the various buildings, and so far, there has been no smoking gun found, otherwise they would have shared it with the public.  Maybe they are hoping to find the HQ still in another part of the complex, but it seems far fetched at this point.

[Crixus]

12 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

UN Security Council Resolution calling for extended humanitarian pauses has passed.

Finally - it was passed because unlike vetoing, the US, UK and Russia simply abstained. The first two because the resolution did not explicitly condemn Hamas, to which my response is: wtf not?? If such an inclusion is the only obstacle towards getting votes, why not just fucking include it, particularly since everyone knows it to be true? Like, if Hamas had only ever targeted military bases with rockets, and only attacked IDF on Oct 7, one could still see the reasoning behind the reluctance to do so because you could frame this as legit fighting/attacking military targets. But they didn't - they regularly attack civilians, culminating in the horrific, barbaric shit last month.  

[Crixus]

7 hours ago, Mudguard said:

At this point, the IDF needs to immediately let in independent journalists to document the search.  In the first day, there does not appear to have been any fighting within the hospital, so I don't see how they can claim it's too dangerous, if the journalists are willing to accept the risks.  

If they had presented videos and pictures of an underground HQ after the first several hours or so, I wouldn't have any problems believing the evidence.  It would have been impossible to stage things that quickly, assuming there was an extensive amount of evidence being shown, and not just a handful of go bags that could have easily been placed in 5 minutes.  But after a day or two and after coming up embarrassingly short during the first day?  People are going to have doubts about the new evidence, which could potentially be mitigated by allowing journalists to document the search.

But the longer it takes for them to show us the evidence, the harder it will be to believe that it wasn't staged.  Already, it doesn't make any sense for them to not have gone directly for the HQ.  They say they know exactly where it is, but instead of going right for it, they spend a day searching buildings outside the area of interest for random shit.  Makes zero sense.  And it's not like this search is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.  We are talking about trying to find Hamas' HQ, when they already claim its location is well known, and they already have architectural designs of the complex, including the subterranean additions. 

I think it's very likely they've searched the basements of the various buildings, and so far, there has been no smoking gun found, otherwise they would have shared it with the public.  Maybe they are hoping to find the HQ still in another part of the complex, but it seems far fetched at this point.

This, together with the embarrassing, proven-to-be-false propaganda that @Zorral linked above, the hateful statements by a variety of state/government officials and of course, the huge death toll = shitty optics. Also, any country waging war that presents itself as a secular, lawful democracy and ends up with such a huge civilian death toll should be held to account - not saying they need to share sensitive intel, but some authentic evidence, corroborated by neutral third parties after the fact, should be expected. 

The government is also not doing itself any favours by calling for the UN to be defunded, discrediting any humanitarian or other organisations because they don't just sign off on what is happening, and now attacking allies like Canada and France for making statements like 'stop killing kids' and 'too many deaths'. It's like they expect complete carte blanche. No one deserves that, including the US (though fuck knows they generally get it in practical terms, along with other powerful countries, else Bush and Blair may have faced actual consequences for lying about a war that led to massive destruction and death, instead of doing the speech circuit and painting and writing books). 

[Darryk]

On 11/14/2023 at 10:43 PM, Zorral said:

As I pointed out -- Some of them persons with vast amounts of money and connections.

ZOMG the Rothschilds 

[Mudguard]

So they did allow the BBC to visit Al-Shifa after the first day of searching, but it was essentially another PR event.

Quote

Our visit was tightly controlled; we had very limited time on the ground and were not able to speak to doctors or patients there.

Essentially, they were taken to the MRI building and shown the same weapons and computer that was shown in the earlier video that was posted on Twitter.  Nothing new was shown to them, and they couldn't interview anyone.  After being shown the same stuff we already saw, they were whisked away.

One interesting tidbit though was that the IDF PR guy admitted Hamas wasn't presently there.

Quote

"At the end of the day, this is just the tip of the iceberg," he said. "Hamas aren't here because they saw we were coming. This is probably what they were forced to leave behind. Our assessment is that there's much more."

This contradicts their claims that Hamas was preventing Al-Shifa staff from accepting the fuel or that Hamas was preventing civilians from leaving the hospital.  There's no reasonable way such things could be done remotely, unless you believe in extensive collusion between everyone with a phone in the hospital and Hamas, and that somehow the staff was preventing civilians from leaving.  Of course, if this was the case, why not let the BBC reporters interview some civilians?  Probably because none of those things happened.

Why not let the BBC reporters stay on site and follow the next phases of the search?  They admit Hamas isn't here anymore, so the danger doesn't appear to be greater than in other war zones that reporters work in.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Mudguard

[Darryk]

On 11/14/2023 at 10:52 PM, Rippounet said:

Of course some forms of anti-semitism have nothing to do with Israel

"some" ?????!!!!!

On 11/14/2023 at 10:52 PM, Rippounet said:

I've met an anti-semite or two who wouldn't have been able to locate Israel on a map

You've not hung out with many people if you've only met one or two.

On 11/14/2023 at 10:52 PM, Rippounet said:

Because the neo-nazis have turned into supporters of Israel

Uh, no. 

[Rippounet]

1 hour ago, Darryk said:

Uh, no. 

Yes.

[kissdbyfire]

I suppose we're now living in the new normal.

 

[Darryk]

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

Yes.

There may be a very small faction of Neo Nazis who support Israel but for the most part:

• They believe Jews faked the holocaust to get Israel founded
• Jews are using control over the American government to leech funds for Israel.

The support of Israel among new Nazis seems to be mainly in Europe.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

Yes.

Are you conflating neo-Nazis with Christian fascists? 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

4 hours ago, Crixus said:

Finally - it was passed because unlike vetoing, the US, UK and Russia simply abstained. The first two because the resolution did not explicitly condemn Hamas, to which my response is: wtf not?? If such an inclusion is the only obstacle towards getting votes, why not just fucking include it, particularly since everyone knows it to be true? Like, if Hamas had only ever targeted military bases with rockets, and only attacked IDF on Oct 7, one could still see the reasoning behind the reluctance to do so because you could frame this as legit fighting/attacking military targets. But they didn't - they regularly attack civilians, culminating in the horrific, barbaric shit last month.  

Hamas and Likud both suck.  They both feed off the violence of the other.  

[Zorral]

Ceasefire NOW!

There are, at this moment, 1063 responses to this story.  The overwhelming number express, at best skepticism, and many just sheer belief, that this, this is what IDF got?  Also, the expressions as to why by now anybody would believe anything IDF etc. claims.

How Israel built its case to raid Gaza’s al-Shifa Hospital

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/15/israel-gaza-al-shifa-hospital-raid-case/

Quote

 

.... The Washington Post was unable to independently verify who the weapons belonged to or how they came to be inside the radiology unit.

“These arms by themselves hardly seem to justify the military fixation on al-Shifa, even setting the law aside,” said Brian Finucane, a senior adviser at the International Crisis Group and former legal adviser at the State Department.

Pressed in an interview Wednesday on CNN, another IDF spokesman, Richard Hecht, was cautious in his comments about what the raid had revealed. “We found certain things,” he said. “That’s all I can say at this stage.”

IDF forces found no sign of hostages at the site, Israel’s Army Radio reported. ....

This comment is fairly typical:

 

Quote

 

The few pieces of "evidence" are the sorts of things that wind up in hospital lockups all over the US. Can't tell you how many guns and clips and paraphenalia wind up there, taken off of living or later dead patients when they were admitted.

Almost 2 days scouring the place and no Hamas super center or even a suggestion of anything. Terrifying patients that are there grievously injured, children suffering amputations and surgeries without anesthesia, premature babies dying from lack of 0xygen tanks or electricity to warm bassinets and so much more, because of Israel's relentless weeks- long assault. Israeli military with guns drawn walking through the halls and wards of people mourning the loss of their whole families to Israel's revenge.

We continue to support and rationalize this collective punishment of innocent people, far more barbarous than anything Hamas is capable of, probably only because they are lacking our American Weapons systems, bombs and 308 B in "defense" spending a year and apparently our unfettered America support of this butchery.

 

Those who feel otherwise don't deal with the content, they scream "trendy antisemitism", "Jewhaters", "lovers of Hamas", etc., and people in the west care more for an LGBTQ athlete taken prisoner by the Russians than the killers of Jews. 

Folks, this does not work.  And hasn't for a very long time.  I was already being accused of "performing chic and trendy" when expressing shock (because such action, such sanctioned action, contradicted everything I'd been believing all my life Israel was) at the attacks on West Bank Palestinians back many years ago already.

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Zorral

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, Zorral said:

a senior adviser at the International Crisis Group

Something about the name of the group tickled a memory, and a quick Google reminded me why. 

A ceasefire will certainly make sense when Hamas sues for peace. Now would be better than later, certainly, but it's in Hamas's hands.

[Zorral]

Nov. 16, 2023, 10:43 a.m. ET Updated  Just Now

Israel-Hamas War
Israeli Forces Comb Gaza Hospital for 2nd Day

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/11/16/world/israel-hamas-gaza-war-news

Quote

Here’s what we know:
The Israeli Army has not presented much evidence that Hamas used Al-Shifa Hospital as a base. A military spokesman said the search would take time

In a shift, the U.S. does not block a U.N. resolution calling for humanitarian pauses in Gaza.

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Zorral

[Zorral]

I am sharing this full article by Nicolas Kristoff via a gift link.  Highly recommend we all read it because it expresses so clearly the grievous dilemma we share, that there is no right side wrong side here, no people we condemn, whether Palestinians or Israelis.

What We Get Wrong About Israel and Gaza

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/15/opinion/israel-gaza-facts.html?

unlocked_article_code=1.-0w.tVAg.YKAzw3Hra8K9&smid=url-share

*Whereas we do condemn Hamas, Bibiilksetc.  This is unlike the Ukraine war, in which most of us fully support Ukraine and wholly condemn Putin and his Russia.

[Altherion]

5 hours ago, Crixus said:

Finally - it was passed because unlike vetoing, the US, UK and Russia simply abstained. The first two because the resolution did not explicitly condemn Hamas, to which my response is: wtf not??

I think the resolution is a carefully crafted compromise between the countries that support Hamas (yes, not just the Palestinians, but Hamas) and those that support Israel. On the one hand, it calls for an immediate and unconditional release of all hostages and on the other, it calls for extended humanitarian pauses sufficient for the UN to ship in aid. This was just barely enough to get Russia on the one side and the US and UK on the other to abstain rather than veto it. If the resolution had explicitly condemned Hamas, it would probably have been vetoed by Russia.

Of course, as it stands, it's pretty pointless since Hamas is not going to release the hostages for nothing and given this fact, Israel has no incentive to stop fighting.

[Fragile Bird]

6 hours ago, Crixus said:

Finally - it was passed because unlike vetoing, the US, UK and Russia simply abstained. The first two because the resolution did not explicitly condemn Hamas, to which my response is: wtf not?? If such an inclusion is the only obstacle towards getting votes, why not just fucking include it, particularly since everyone knows it to be true? Like, if Hamas had only ever targeted military bases with rockets, and only attacked IDF on Oct 7, one could still see the reasoning behind the reluctance to do so because you could frame this as legit fighting/attacking military targets. But they didn't - they regularly attack civilians, culminating in the horrific, barbaric shit last month.  

This is the regular pattern at the UN whenever there’s a major issue. One side in a controversy will be condemned but there will be silence about the other side. This regularly occurs in the Security Council, hence you’ve seen a lot of criticism whenever one of the permanent members blocks a vote. Ergo, the criticism against the US for being hypocrites, but the Russians and the Chinese do the same.

I think there’s lots of stuff on the internet discussing how many times Israel gets condemned without condemnation of countries that are threatening to wipe out Israel and I’m not going to post endless links about it. You would think that condemning Hamas for what they did is, as you say, a wtf why not, but there are many members who simply refuse to do so.

eta: as Altherion posted above, there are actual supporters of Hamas in the UN.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Fragile Bird

[kissdbyfire]

22 minutes ago, Zorral said:

I am sharing this full article by Nicolas Kristoff via a gift link.  Highly recommend we all read it because it expresses so clearly the grievous dilemma we share, that there is no right side wrong side here, no people we condemn, whether Palestinians or Israelis.

What We Get Wrong About Israel and Gaza

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/15/opinion/israel-gaza-facts.html?

unlocked_article_code=1.-0w.tVAg.YKAzw3Hra8K9&smid=url-share

*Whereas we do condemn Hamas, Bibiilksetc.  This is unlike the Ukraine war, in which most of us fully support Ukraine and wholly condemn Putin and his Russia.

Excellent article. @Relic will see the author uses the same analogy they used.

The second myth is that Palestinians can be put off indefinitely, strung along by Israel, the United States and other countries. That was Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s strategy, his way of avoiding a Palestinian state, and it worked for a time — the way a pressure cooker works, until it explodes.

[Kalbear]

Israel appears to be starting offensive operations in the South fairly soon based on dropping leaflets to evacuate to known shelter areas. Given that the shelters are already past capacity and people are scavenging furniture to burn to use for cooking it's not clear where they're going to go.

Quote

 

A leaflet dropped Wednesday on communities to the east of Khan Younis, the largest city in the southern part of Gaza, warned people living there to move and “head towards known shelters.”

The four communities – Al Qarrah, Khuza’a, Bani Suhaila, and Absaan – sit close to the perimeter fence separating the Gaza Strip from Israel, suggesting possible new incursion points by Israeli forces looking to take control of the south.

The director of the Norwegian Refugee Council, which has staff in Gaza, suggested yesterday in a social media post that members of his local team had seen the leaflet, and the Reuters news agency said it had spoken to people who had also seen it.