Israel - Hamas War X

[Bael's Bastard]

The genocide accusations are baseless antisemitic Holocaust inversion. Not that victims of genocide are inherently incapable of committing genocide, but Jews are factually not doing so. When the Nazis were committing actual genocide they were relentlessly killing 10-15,000 Jews per day with the capabilities they had. Israel has dropped more bombs than people have been killed (militants or otherwise), an absurdity if they were trying to commit genocide against Gazans.

[kissdbyfire]

And there we are. Again. For the umpteenth time, criticism of this Israeli government and its actions in this war immediately become finger-pointing and accusations of antisemitism to shut up everyone who is critical of Netanyahu and his cronies. 

[Bael's Bastard]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

And there we are. Again. For the umpteenth time, criticism of this Israeli government and its actions in this war immediately become finger-pointing and accusations of antisemitism to shut up everyone who is critical of Netanyahu and his cronies. 

For fuck's sake, I've been very careful not to call all the unhinged bullshit people have posted in these threads antisemitic. Nor have I attempted to shut anyone up. Everyone has been posting whatever crazy bullshit pops out of their unfiltered fingertips. But some things ARE antisemitic and I sure as fuck am not going to refrain from calling it out when it is being spread. The baseless accusations against Israel of genocide are absolutely antisemitic, whether spread by supposed human rights orgs or by some asshole on the internet.

[Altherion]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And there we are. Again. For the umpteenth time, criticism of this Israeli government and its actions in this war immediately become finger-pointing and accusations of antisemitism to shut up everyone who is critical of Netanyahu and his cronies. 

What are you talking about? That post was clearly directed at the person who is accusing the Israelis of currently committing genocide which is completely absurd and absolutely an antisemitic trope.

[Kalbear]

40 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Right. Whereas the non non-violence is working wonderfully. 

I mean...yes? Israel has existed for over 70 years, has never been defeated in war, is doing well per-capita, has a very advanced military and has significant power over their area. By comparison to the 1910s and 1940s it is working a LOT better. 

 

37 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Nah, I got the point, but unlike Black Americans, Palestinians have had their own national governments and elected leaders for decades who make or break any drive for self-determination and peace.

They still have to rely entirely on dealing with Israel, and Israel for decades has had no real interest in fostering a peace agreement and was instead more than happy to try and fracture Palestinian leadership and encourage division. 

Put it another way: MLK would have achieved nothing without LBJ. Right now the Palestinians don't really have a whole lot of MLK on their side, but Israel has nothing like LBJ either.

[Zorral]

Just now, Kalbear said:

Israel has existed for over 70 years, has never been defeated in war, is doing well per-capita, has a very advanced military and has significant power over their are

None of which would be the case w/o the overt military, financial and diplomatic pressures of the US at Israel's back.

As, I just pointed out, was the case with the success of MLK.

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, Zorral said:

None of which would be the case w/o the overt military, financial and diplomatic pressures of the US at Israel's back.

Not entirely true. Israel pretty much won their earlier wars on the strength of themselves. Later on they had military support, but so did their enemies (from the Soviet Union). 

I don't see how this really makes a point though. The US isn't going to give up Israel any time soon (as seen by the US's tepid response to Israel's civilian killings) so how Israel is doing things now is clearly still working for them. It's not working for others in the region, and this is the kind of thing that works until it doesn't, but it's clearly successful. Being a major friend of the US has been a very good way to gain power in a region for a whole lot of countries. 

One of the reasons I think that Israel should change their behavior is that I believe they have a very real risk of being too toxic, even for the US. Especially when Trump or the next Republican autocrat comes into power and gets paid off by Saudis. 

[Tywin et al.]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Maybe. But should that be the point now? Who started hating who when or who started hating the other first?  
To be honest, I don’t even believe that question can be answered at this point, though I’m sure I’ll be told I’m wrong because X started, or Y started.

Most conflicts have a starting point you can reasonably work from. This one doesn't. That said, if you start from the creation of the state of Israel you do ignore a lot of important context and many atrocities committed against Jews between WW1 and WW2 that drove so many out of the region in the first place. Jews didn't leave the region because they thought the weather in Europe was nicer...

Quote

But the only possible way to a peaceful existence for both peoples is to try to work out solutions that would be acceptable for both, one baby step at a time. And I refuse to accept that there is no possible solution because that is simply ridiculous. Is it going to be quick and easy? Of course not, much the opposite in fact. Does that mean it shouldn’t even be attempted? Again, of course not. All that said, I think any path to a peaceful existence is now blocked by extremists on both sides.
 

“Non-violence for me is the art of being a human being. It’s the celebration of my existence.”

Violence is intrinsic to the human experience. Best to check your fantasies at the door.

Honestly though, these two sides haven't been able to and certainly can't now. They've been failing at it for hundreds of years. They need a split a la India and Pakistan and then maybe after a long time they can slowly normalize relations. Expecting anything else is a pipe dream.  

[Ran]

The US didn't really start to markedly support Israel with arms until after the Six Day War. It had had some minor arms and aircraft sales prior to that, but in genera at the same timel it sold similar equipment to Jordan and others of Israels neighbors and antagonists.

In 1948, veteran American and British pilots played a big part in helping to smuggle arms into Israel, but most of those arms were purchased from countries like France and Czechoslovakia; the latter was especially important -- they had a ton of surplus stuff that had originally been intended for the Luftwaffe, like Messerschmitt Bf 109s under a new name, and the Wermacht, and were happy to sell it to the Israelis.

In other news, Hillary Rodham Clinton on Hamas and the current Israeli government, all very sensible.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Ran

[IheartIheartTesla]

To bring this discussion of non-violence back to the Indian subcontinent (as prior discussions have), MLK was of course a great student of nonviolence as practiced by Gandhi and his followers and even took a trip to India in the late 50s. The reason both these movements worked to a certain extent is two fold, in my mind: the moral clarity of their positions which were easy to support, and the 'conscience' of the opposing side. As much as I'm not a fan of the British Empire, they were nowhere as brutal as say the Nazis would be, and its laughable to think of nonviolence as a means of opposing the latter (something Gandhi actually suggested).

I think there is enough moral ambiguity in the Israel-Palestine issue for any MLK-style movement to not gain much traction at this point in time. Everyone's minds have been made up. 

[Ran]

7 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

they were nowhere as brutal as say the Nazis would be, and its laughable to think of nonviolence as a means of opposing the latter (something Gandhi actually suggested).

Apropos of nothing, Harry Turtledove wrote an alt history story titled "The Last Article" that uses that premise. TL;DR: It does not go well.

[Kalbear]

55 minutes ago, Ran said:

In other news, Hillary Rodham Clinton on Hamas and the current Israeli government, all very sensible.

Quote

 

Rejecting a premature cease-fire does not mean defending all of Israel’s tactics, nor does it lessen Israel’s responsibility to comply with the laws of war. Minimizing civilian casualties is legally and morally necessary. It is also a strategic imperative. Israel’s long-term security depends on its achieving peaceful coexistence with neighbors who are prepared to accept its existence and its need for security. The disaster of October 7 has discredited the theory that Israel can contain Hamas, ignore the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinian people, and freeze Israeli control over Palestinians forever.

Going forward, Israel needs a new strategy and new leadership. Instead of the current ultra-right-wing government, it will need a government of national unity that’s rooted in the center of Israeli politics and can make the hard choices ahead. At home, it will have to reaffirm Israeli democracy after a tumultuous period. In Gaza, it should resist the urge to reoccupy the territory after the war, accept an internationally mandated interim administration for governing the Strip, and support regional efforts to reform and revive the Palestinian Authority so it has the credibility and the means to reassume control of Gaza. In the West Bank, it must clamp down on the violence perpetrated by extremist Israeli settlers and stop building new settlements that make it harder to imagine a future Palestinian state. Ultimately, the only way to ensure Israel’s future as a secure, democratic, Jewish state is by achieving two states for two peoples. And in the region, Israel should resume serious negotiations with Saudi Arabia and others to normalize relations and build a broad coalition to counter Iran.

 

Man, she would have made a really good president. Pity she wasn't very good at running for one. 

[Bael's Bastard]

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

None of which would be the case w/o the overt military, financial and diplomatic pressures of the US at Israel's back.

As, I just pointed out, was the case with the success of MLK.

Not true. Israel's greatest military successes all came as a young socialist country that the US gov was quite hostile towards. The US didn't jump on the bandwagon until after the Six Day War completely changed everything and especially after the peace deal with Egypt, as even during the YK War the US used its new position of "support" to delay weapons shipments to Israel. The US spent decades pressuring Israel any time invasions/wars against them turned in their favor.

[Zorral]

None of which changes the fact that Israel has been supported in every way by Powers from the beginning.  Also, like much else, there's a lot of mythology around the early days of Israel that like so many mythologies are accepted as facts.

There were quite a few very wealthy and connected 'private' supporters of the Cause, who were able to finance military grade weapons and much else in those early years.

Which points out another primary difference between the Civil Rights Movement and MLK and Israel.

No matter what the atrocities and horrors historically in one place and another, at the same times those horrors were being inflicted, in way or another, often in currently 'peaceful' locations, generational wealth was able to be accrued by a significant number of the communities -- which never happened for African Americans, who weren't even able to have families.  We are speaking 16-17 generations of that process in the USA.  The biggest funder of MLK was Harry Belafonte.  Quite different than being funded by a branch of the Rothschilds.

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Zorral

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, Zorral said:

None of which changes the fact that Israel has been supported in every way by Powers from the beginning.  Also, like much else, there's a lot of mythology around the early days of Israel that like so many mythologies are accepted as facts.

It...kind of does. Israel was supported not by powers, but by people. It was largely not given a lot of support for quite a while. It isn't mythology - it's precisely the opposite. Acknowledging that is kind of a big deal. 

I'm sure Israel would have a harder time of doing things that they have done in the last 20-30 years were it not for unlimited, unquestioned US support and alliances - but that wasn't the way it always was, and Israel is not some puppet of the US that can't do anything on its own. Even today. They have the capabilities to manufacture a whole lot of their own weaponry and devices, and point of fact a whole lot of the US and NATO arsenals are manufactured exclusively in Israel. 

Israel would have a significantly harder time of things if the US didn't back them, and they may have a major problem with, say, all of the Middle East going and invading them now, but they'd still likely win without any other help. That is honestly a major part of being Israeli and their goals - that no matter what happens they have the ability to defend themselves. Blinken said recently that Israel does not need the US support but they have it anyway, and that has been Israel's goal for their capabilities too. 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Kalbear

[Bael's Bastard]

2 minutes ago, Zorral said:

None of which changes the fact that Israel has been supported in every way by Powers from the beginning.  Also, like much else, there's a lot of mythology around the early days of Israel that like so many mythologies are accepted as facts.

That's a lie not a fact.

[Relic]

35 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

 Pity she wasn't very good at running for one. 

But... her EMAILS!! 

Anyway, i wonder what her public position would be were she in Biden's place. Might be singing a different tune. 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Relic

[Craving Peaches]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/14/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-al-shifa-hospital.html

Quote

The strikes analyzed by The Times did not appear to be targeting underground infrastructure. Two of the most severe strikes hit upper floors of the maternity ward.

...

[Zorral]

34 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Israel was supported not by powers, but by people.

As I pointed out -- Some of them persons with vast amounts of money and connections.

So much so it even remains a constant of dramas on television, film and novels.  Even in Michener's The Source!

Edited November 14, 2023 by Zorral

[Ran]

Just now, Zorral said:

As I pointed out -- People with vast amounts of money and connections.

Any Rothschilds among them?