Israel - Hamas War X

[Daeron the Daring]

13 hours ago, Kalbear said:

And that would mean it's not an established right. Even the UN gives this a right within the borders of their own country. 

I guess it's up to interpretation.

13 hours ago, Kalbear said:

I don't agree that the right to return is an established basic human right. It is a right to return to your country of citizenship, but what if that country doesn't exist any more? The UN has a whole lot of debate about this right now as well. I reject this as a basis for understanding here. 

The current situation of the palestinians is the creation of the wrongs they were subjected to in the past. Saying that they have no right to return because they lack a recognised state (and hence are no citizens of any recognised country) is simly not true. It's not the societal legal framework what makes them human beings, it's them being one.

But the idea/concept of compensation for displacement (which can happen via the right to return) doesn't exist for israeli palestinian citizens either.

That there's no legally binding obligation towards Israel in this matter is probably because it would be impossible to implement such a thing outside the framework of the 'final' peace negotiations, the result of which would be a two separate or one state, with equal rights for everyone.

13 hours ago, Kalbear said:

It is, however, a very weird stretch of logic to say that Jews should have a right to get the property and land stolen from them by Nazis but Palestinians should not get recompense for being kicked out of their homes.

I absolutely agree. I am very much in favor of state-led implementations of reparations towards jews who endured systemic injustice in the past. Not sure who expressed their disagreement towards the idea of it, (certainly not me) altough I've seen this brought up as a counterargument against the right to return. (I honestly may have missed it, altough I read like 90% of the discussion from the first topic)

But two wrongs don't make one right, and nobody can say that palestinians don't have a right to demand such a thing because jews give up on the same thing towards european and middle-eastern countries.

[Heartofice]

10 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

So the existence of ethnostates is more palatable because countries with Jewish populations couldn't get their act together enough to let them live in freedom inside their borders, necessitating a Jewish ethnostste, which by the choice of its location (and it was a choice), is going to have to project sufficient force so their neighboring ethnostste will not contemplate using their own forces to end said state. In the meantime, the people displaced by the establishment of this ethnostate must remain stateless.

I gotta say, I'm having a hard time understanding this. I think Israel's experience is an excellent argument against ethnostates.

I think the question is more, how do you ensure the safety of Jews in a region full of nations and groups that are likely to try and wipe them off the face of the planet. All I'm seeing so far is this vague idea that 'people are nice' and so there isn't any realistic chance of that happening. 

If Israel became a state with a Jewish minority, who is guaranteeing their safety? Why would Israel want to risk such a situation. 

[Rippounet]

2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I think the question is more, how do you ensure the safety of Jews in a region full of nations and groups that are likely to try and wipe them off the face of the planet.

Oh, we know the answer to that one: i) make sure the Jews have enough firepower to kill everyone else and ii) make sure the others know their place.

Of course, thinking this way has been a stellar success.

[Heartofice]

6 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Oh, we know the answer to that one: i) make sure the Jews have enough firepower to kill everyone else and ii) make sure the others know their place.

Of course, thinking this way has been a stellar success.

Well it has succeeded in preventing Middle Eastern countries invading and trying to wipe Israel off the planet.

[Ran]

Something they have tried and failed to do more than once, at that.

[Darzin]

Like it or not Israel has all the power and all the nukes and has won every war waged against it. So any peace plan that expects them to give all that up is a nonstarter. Like seriously Israel has won war over existential war against Arabs trying to destroy a Jewish state and people expect them to give that up at the negotiating table against factions who at best can muster a few tens of thousands of militia members?  

Israel doesn't particularly need or want peace which is something the Palestinian factions and their maximalist demands aren't really calibrated for. Israel is incredibly lucky that  a fanciful vision of Palestine from the river to sea so prevails on the street. Because a Palestinian MLK demanding equal rights for West Bank residents would be very hard to counter. The current situation benefits Israel in the short term but long term is incredibly unstable.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Darzin

[Darryk]

The fact is a one-state solution can't be allowed to happen because the Arab majority would stop Jewish immigration to the country, which would defeat the purpose of Israel existing in the first place.

The rising anti-Semitism lately just makes it even more clear why Israel needs to exist. Everywhere I look there's people accusing Jews of pushing abortion (so they can kill white babies), immigration (so they can replace white people), Marxism (for obvious reasons) and gun control (so the white people can't protect themselves).

Even a friend of mine believes this shit although obviously keeps his conspiracy theories on the down low around me, but sometimes it comes out. Like he asked me what the abortion laws in Israel were like and was clearly implying that Jews don't allow abortion in Israel but push it everywhere else.

[mormont]

19 minutes ago, Darzin said:

Because a Palestinian MLK demanding equal rights for West Bank residents would be very hard to counter. 

Experience suggests not. Or do you believe that such Palestinians have simply never existed?

I find this sort of sentiment, regularly expressed in these discussions, puzzling. Do people think that somehow, no Palestinian has ever pursued a non-violent, equal rights campaign?

They have. But Israel is not interested in engaging with them, and nor is Hamas or the PA (nor their supporters, from the US to Arab countries). In fact both sides tend to ignore them at best, actively harass them at worst. 

It makes no sense to believe that no Palestinian has ever tried the MLK road. The question you should be asking yourself is not why that hasn't happened, but why you've never heard of it happening. 

[Bael's Bastard]

The greatest threat to Netanyahu and his most right wing coalition partners is a Palestinian leader who actually intends to make peace demanding final status negotiations for a two state solution. Support for a two state solution has fluctuated among Israelis and Palestinians, mostly because of cynicism that there is a real partner on the other side. The second intifada, election of Hamas, Hamas capture of Gaza from Fatah, Fatah pay for slay program and frequent denial of Jewish history in the land and the Holocaust killed any faith Israelis had in a partner for peace or any urgent drive they had to make the peace process central to elections. The desire is there, just not the willingness to put life on hold waiting for Palestinians to get serious. Most Israelis do not want to annex the WB (outside the consensus communties near Jerusalem) or absorb millions of Palestinians, but the aftermath of the Gaza disengagement has made a unilateral withdrawal from the WB a non-starter. Terror, BDS, international pressure, etc. will not change that. Palestinian leaders who want two states and are capable of delivering support on their side absolutely can.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Bael's Bastard

[Bael's Bastard]

15 minutes ago, mormont said:

Experience suggests not. Or do you believe that such Palestinians have simply never existed?

I find this sort of sentiment, regularly expressed in these discussions, puzzling. Do people think that somehow, no Palestinian has ever pursued a non-violent, equal rights campaign?

They have. But Israel is not interested in engaging with them, and nor is Hamas or the PA (nor their supporters, from the US to Arab countries). In fact both sides tend to ignore them at best, actively harass them at worst. 

It makes no sense to believe that no Palestinian has ever tried the MLK road. The question you should be asking yourself is not why that hasn't happened, but why you've never heard of it happening. 

It is disingenuous to claim or pretend that Palestinian political leadership has ever been anything except Arafat, Abbas, and Hamas, none of whom have seriously pursued a two state solution and peace with Israel (Arafat and Abbas both played chicken with peace, but ultimately bailed whether they didn't believe in it or didn't believe their people could accept it).

[Darzin]

26 minutes ago, mormont said:

Experience suggests not. Or do you believe that such Palestinians have simply never existed?

I find this sort of sentiment, regularly expressed in these discussions, puzzling. Do people think that somehow, no Palestinian has ever pursued a non-violent, equal rights campaign?

They have. But Israel is not interested in engaging with them, and nor is Hamas or the PA (nor their supporters, from the US to Arab countries). In fact both sides tend to ignore them at best, actively harass them at worst. 

It makes no sense to believe that no Palestinian has ever tried the MLK road. The question you should be asking yourself is not why that hasn't happened, but why you've never heard of it happening. 

I believe they've existed I just meant if such leaders had influence or prominence and advocated for Palestinian rights in Israel, rather than as a separate nation. Part of the reasons the Bantustans failed is the population never accepted their legitimacy. 

[Crixus]

22 hours ago, Heartofice said:

No, I'm saying there is large scale hatred of Israel, much of it fuelled by anti semitism within the palestinian community. Do you think that isn't true?

Not at all. Though anti-Semitism isn't just in the 'Palestinian community' - it's found in communities the world over, including Christian ones. Or are you saying anti-Semitism is perpetrated solely by Muslims?

And do you think Islamophobia doesn't exist, particularly in the West? Or (let me guess) do you think it is somehow warranted? 

It seems rather convenient to put the onus of anti-Semitism entirely on Muslims whilst ignoring the fact that the biggest single atrocity against Jews was at the hands of European Christians, and that anti-Semitism is very much in existence amongst far right groups in the West today - though many are generously inclusive enough to have branched out to Muslims too.

I think @Rippounet shared an article in a previous thread about the West's collective psychological guilt on this, and how that has somehow been wholly transferred to Muslims. To me, it is entirely possible and honest to acknowledge anti-Semitism (and its history, because I am a firm believer in history providing context for the present, rather than handwaving it as being irrelevant) among both groups - and that it has been institutionalised by both at various points, including the last century. 

It also seems disingenuous to wonder WHY Palestinians may harbour such hatred - if you can look at forced mass expulsion and mass displacement, murder and inhumane treatment over the last 75 years - and happening at a horrific scale right bloody now - and wonder why those being affected may not be free of resentment or prejudice or worse, I would have no choice but to assume you're either entirely devoid of empathy (unless applied very selectively), profoundly ignorant, or simply unable to put basic facts together to draw straightforward conclusions. 

Let me also say I despise all religions. I wish they had become extinct a long time ago. But I don't think that gives me the licence to paint all those who follow a specific religion as evil/fanatics/terrorists. 

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, Darryk said:

Everywhere I look there's people accusing Jews of pushing abortion (so they can kill white babies), immigration (so they can replace white people), Marxism (for obvious reasons) and gun control (so the white people can't protect themselves).

What the actual fuck???

God Trumpanistas and their bullshit make me want to vomit.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

56 minutes ago, mormont said:

Experience suggests not. Or do you believe that such Palestinians have simply never existed?

I find this sort of sentiment, regularly expressed in these discussions, puzzling. Do people think that somehow, no Palestinian has ever pursued a non-violent, equal rights campaign?

They have. But Israel is not interested in engaging with them, and nor is Hamas or the PA (nor their supporters, from the US to Arab countries). In fact both sides tend to ignore them at best, actively harass them at worst. 

It makes no sense to believe that no Palestinian has ever tried the MLK road. The question you should be asking yourself is not why that hasn't happened, but why you've never heard of it happening. 

I think the point is that if the vast majority of Palestinian activists in Palestine were to reject Hamas and the more aggressive methods they advocat and adopt purely non-violent methods a la Dr. King, it would be difficult for the world to look away similar to what happened in Selma.

Then again, (thinking as I type) Selma could be seen as a unique moment and that without the cameras and the violence offered to protesters in Selma  no change may have occured.  People have, sadly, become inured to violence against peaceful protests.  So… maybe… I’m flat wrong.

I don’t know…

[Darzin]

9 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

What the actual fuck???

God Trumpanistas and their bullshit make me want to vomit.

Anti-semitism isn't really a Trump thing. He loves the Jews! Remember?

[Heartofice]

12 minutes ago, Crixus said:

Not at all. Though anti-Semitism isn't just in the 'Palestinian community' - it's found in communities the world over, including Christian ones. Or are you saying anti-Semitism is perpetrated solely by Muslims?

No of course, anti-semitism can be found anywhere, it can be found in christian far right groups as well.

Are muslims more likely to be anti semitic than the general population? I'd suggest that yes they would. You can look at a number of polls and see that muslim opinion of jews is general much more negative than the rest of the population and are more likely to hold anti-semitic views too:
https://isgap.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Jikeli_Antisemitic_Attitudes_among_Muslims_in_Europe1.pdf

Not especially new polling in that link but I would bet it would be even more pronounced now.
 

19 minutes ago, Crixus said:

Let me also say I despise all religions. I wish they had become extinct a long time ago. But I don't think that gives me the licence to paint all those who follow a specific religion as evil/fanatics/terrorists. 

Sure, I agree, we shouldn't paint all people of the same religion the same way. That also doesn't mean there isn't a clear problem, which shouldn't be ignored. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 minutes ago, Darzin said:

Anti-semitism isn't really a Trump thing. He loves the Jews! Remember?

There is so much hatred of Jews bubbling under the Trumpanistas.  

[kissdbyfire]

Possibilities...

 

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

It is disingenuous to claim or pretend that Palestinian political leadership has ever been anything except Arafat, Abbas, and Hamas, none of whom have seriously pursued a two state solution and peace with Israel (Arafat and Abbas both played chicken with peace, but ultimately bailed whether they didn't believe in it or didn't believe their people could accept it).

MLK was not an elected leader or representative either. You're very much missing the point of that conversation.

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

What the actual fuck???

God Trumpanistas and their bullshit make me want to vomit.

Ain't trumpanistas. They were that way long before Trump. That's who a whole lot of Republicans were and are. That's the base.