Theon I in TWoW

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

So, I have started my reread of...the released chapters of the Winds of Winter, and to continue my dive into Theon. 

1. I wish Theon would just tell Stannis he didn't kill Bran or Rickon. I don't know how Stannis would react, but why not? Stannis's primary reason for executing Theon is that. But perhaps Theon wants to die, I'm not sure. 

2. Theon wanted Asha to run to him and hug him. I wish he was even more direct about this than he was...but it is the first time I really saw Theon admitting what he really wants/his primary motivation really is : To be loved. He was a hostage who was kept at a distance and never allowed to "really" be a member of the family for most of his life. Despite this, his own biological family is even MORE distant than this hostage family, with his father/brothers essentially treat him like crap. Theon wants Asha to love him. He wanted Robb to love him. He wanted Eddard and Catelyn to love him. He wanted the Winterfell servants to love him like they loved the Starks. Theon wanted to be loved. The saddest part is it sounds like his mother DID love him, and he didn't go see her. But ...I think I understand that part the most. 

"Instead of rushing forward to embrace him, she had taken half a step backwards." - This is the line where I think he is admitting what he wanted. 

3. I don't want Theon to die, and I know how unrealistic it is. I want him to continue on a path to redemption. I want him to finally be loved because he finally embraces people without his fake confidence/fake smile and instead with true feelings/wants. I know it won't happen, but I want it so bad. 

4. I know this is too personal, but....Theon has inspired me to redouble my efforts to love myself. How much I want Theon to have a happier ending has made me realize...if I can give Theon a chance at love, if I believe he deserves love. Then so do I. So here is for GRRM accidentally giving some therapy by making me love a character that at one point I absolutely hated (here is hoping that one day I can love myself in that same way). Peace out y'all. 

[kissdbyfire]

I wrote about this in what feels like ages ago... 

https://forthehearttree.wordpress.com/

[Lady Ella]

There would be no point telling Stannis he didn't kill Bran and Rickon. Why would Stannis believe him without proof? The northmen would want Theon dead anyway just for taking Winterfell. Plus, Bran and Rickon are safer for the moment if most people believe them dead. And Theon probably believes that he deserves to die. He did murder two boys, after all.

Nice catch about Theon wanting Asha to embrace him. I didn't notice that. The sad thing is, I think Asha does care about Theon. She just doesn't show it very well. I also think it's very sad he didn't go to see his mother. How much of a difference might that have made? And Robb did love Theon, at least until Theon stole his castle and "murdered his brothers". That's the sad thing about it - Theon destroyed the one good relationship he had.

[Mad King Bolton]

Theon isn't going to die.  Not here or in the near future.  He will make it through by...well, not the skin of his teeth, but y'know, by a slim margin.  I'm sure eventually he'll die, but again, not this way.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

I don't think that Stannis and the northmen will be willing to hear Theon out even if he confesses everything that happened at Winterfell and revealed the early treachery of the Boltons. 

The only one who can save him is either Bran or Bloodraven by making a "miracle" with the Heart Tree.

[kissdbyfire]

13 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I don't think that Stannis and the northmen will be willing to hear Theon out even if he confesses everything that happened at Winterfell and revealed the early treachery of the Boltons. 

The only one who can save him is either Bran or Bloodraven by making a "miracle" with the Heart Tree.

That's exactly what I think will happen. 

[Lord Varys]

There is no reason to assume Theon's life would or should be saved by way of him confessing he murdered two other boys to pass them for the Stark sons. Stannis wouldn't spare him for this, at least.

Theon also doesn't deserve redemption or mercy - and his only usefulness to the plot is that of a POV for crucial scenes. With Asha there, too, he might quickly outlive his usefulness - if not, then they might spare him as a potential pretender to make trouble for Euron ... but even that's quite silly considering that some crippled, traumatized eunuch is most definitely not going to impress so much as a single Ironborn.

If he lives up until the battle he could regain some standing with some people if he were to play in the putting down of Ramsay - say, by killing him personally, saving Asha or even Stannis in the process of that. That isn't that unlikely as it sounds, as Theon 1 established that, so far, Stannis keeps Theon very close to his side to ensure that the Northmen don't just butcher him on sight, so he might actually be in the position to do something during a battle if he is still kept close to Stannis.

2 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

The only one who can save him is either Bran or Bloodraven by making a "miracle" with the Heart Tree.

The point is, though, that chances are pretty low that Bran/Bloodraven will be able to work some 'miracles' before there is a proper blood sacrifice giving them sufficient 'magical fuel' or 'juice' to do something impressive.

Even if they did, though, unless we would have the face in the tree talk in Bran's recognizable voice and him kind of 'proving' that his is Brandon Stark of Winterfell (extremely unlikely to happen, even more so as I'd think that Bran/Bloodraven themselves would have no reason to present themselves as mortal men to their potential worshippers), who on earth would interpret whatever 'miracle' happened there as a sign from the gods to spare the scum that is Theon Greyjoy?

Pretty much no one - especially not the Northmen who would likely be the ones doing the interpretation of any 'signs and portents' sent them by the old gods.

There are signs in ADwD that Bran might be willing to forgive Theon what he did ... but this doesn't mean or entail that he will spare his life. Could just mean that he forgives him on a personal level but takes his blood to nourish himself and the trees, for the good of mankind (of course).

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@Lord Varys

And just who exactly has the authority to decide who deserves mercy/redemption and who doesn't?

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@Lord Varys

And just who exactly has the authority to decide who deserves mercy/redemption and who doesn't?

I do, obviously, like any other reader of those books.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

On 11/24/2023 at 1:01 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I wrote about this in what feels like ages ago... 

https://forthehearttree.wordpress.com/

I'm reading this for the first time, and it answered one of my biggest questions regarding Theon's story/path. I've always wondered why GRRM completely (or almost completely) stripped Theon of his identity and soul. I knew it had to be more than just mere punishment (and I've never been into the "kingsmoot" theories.) I mean, I'm sure that was definitely part of it, Theon deserved a harsh punishment. But why break him as much as he did? 

So do you think he will be sacrificed and physically die at the tree? Or do you think he'll live longer than we are expecting? Possibly acting as a voice for Bran again in the future?

Edited December 27, 2023 by Ser Arthurs Dawn

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

I'm reading this for the first time, and it answered one of my biggest questions regarding Theon's story/path. I've always wondered why GRRM completely (or almost completely) stripped Theon of his identity and soul. I knew it had to be more than just mere punishment (and I've never been into the "kingsmoot" theories.) I mean, I'm sure that punishment was definitely part of it, Theon deserved a harsh punishment. Why break him as much as he did? 

So do you think he will be sacrificed and physically die at the tree? Or do you think he'll live longer than we are expecting? Possibly acting as a voice for Bran again in the future?

I don’t think he'll die at the tree... I think he will be brought to the tree b/c Asha's argument to Stannis will work - he's not stupid and he knows burning people alive won't earn him any respect from the northerners. So he will decide to chop off Theon's head à la Ned Stark. And then, surprise surprise! But I'm not sure this is what you asked...

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t think he'll die at the tree... I think he will be brought to the tree b/c Asha's argument to Stannis will work - he's not stupid and he knows burning people alive won't earn him any respect from the northerners. So he will decide to chop off Theon's head à la Ned Stark. And then, surprise surprise! But I'm not sure this is what you asked...

I was worried it might not make sense, I've been struggling to articulate my thoughts lately because of my lyme. But you did answer it, thank you!!  

[Lord Varys]

Never thought about Theon become Bran's first flesh puppet. That could actually be an interesting plot point. In his present state he would even welcome the destruction of his own self if that's what it takes to earn Bran's forgiveness.

The only way they might spare Theon's physical life is if the guy were to kind of lose it completely and suddenly act as if he were some kind of divine oracle, speaking with the voice of the gods.

Why else would anyone not want to kill him?

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Never thought about Theon become Bran's first flesh puppet. That could actually be an interesting plot point. In his present state he would even welcome the destruction of his own self if that's what it takes to earn Bran's forgiveness.

The only way they might spare Theon's physical life is if the guy were to kind of lose it completely and suddenly act as if he were some kind of divine oracle, speaking with the voice of the gods.

Why else would anyone not want to kill him?

k

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Never thought about Theon become Bran's first flesh puppet. That could actually be an interesting plot point. In his present state he would even welcome the destruction of his own self if that's what it takes to earn Bran's forgiveness.

The only way they might spare Theon's physical life is if the guy were to kind of lose it completely and suddenly act as if he were some kind of divine oracle, speaking with the voice of the gods.

Why else would anyone not want to kill him?

He won’t be the first b/c Bran skinchanged into Hodor more than once. Hodor was his training wheels. 

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

He won’t be the first b/c Bran skinchanged into Hodor more than once. Hodor was his training wheels. 

Yeah, but I assume if that plot is continued Bran might have multiple people who are like Thistle would have been had Varamyr had success - they would be permanently his skin, so to speak, without anything of the real former personality being 'alive'.

Thinking a bit more - they might end up intending to sacrifice more than just Theon on the island. Arnolf Karstark, his second son Arthor, and some of the grandsons were captured alive by Stannis' men. So perhaps they are the first to water the tree with blood, allowing Bloodraven/Bran to work some magic even before it is Theon's turn.

While it would be a pretty good ending for him on the island, what we do know about George writing more Theon chapters seems to indicate he won't die too soon. But, of course, it is also quite possible that outside factors simply stop the sacrifice before they get around to it. An earlier attack, unrest in the camp, some news we don't know yet, Stannis deciding he wants to milk Theon for some more information before the upcoming battle, etc.

The probability that 'some magical stuff at the island' magically causes people to not want to kill Theon are very low indeed. Only Theon could possibly recognize Brandon Stark ... and nobody would possibly believe him. The clansmen would deem something like that obscene.

As a divine oracle they might spare him as long as he talks some sense as an oracle, but that's it.

I'm also somewhat inclined to believe that Bran/Bloodraven will only intervene during the battle, doing something that could indicate that the gods are on Stannis' side - by way of ravens and crows and perhaps even other animals attacking the Freys/Boltons.

If Theon does something heroic or at least meaningful during the battle that could earn him another reprieve. As long as he is useful for Stannis in general. The guy knows no mercy, so even that wouldn't earn him a pardon, of course.

[The Sleeper]

There is quite a bit of set up for Theon becoming Bran's vehicle. Bran's arc with Hodor, Varamyr and Theon's own arc. In short Theon is broken, familiar with Bran and has been likened and lived with dogs. All the prerequisites for him to be possessed by Bran have been set up.

As for convincing the people present that this is in fact what is happening, that seems easily manageable, too. Bran and Bloodraven could very plausibly arrange for some kind of divine omen. For instance, crows in mass speaking at once or raising the wind. There should also be a way to confirm Bran's identity. The Liddle who Bran's group encountered on their way north, could well be present or have shared details of the encounter with other members of his clan.

Moreover, it is a way for Bran to re enter the plot without the trouble of having him travel all the way back south and brings all these previous arcs together. 

[The Sleeper]

On 11/24/2023 at 9:01 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I wrote about this in what feels like ages ago... 

https://forthehearttree.wordpress.com

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/161101-the-gods-are-not-done-with-me/

I had a similar idea. 

[sifth]

Pretty sure Theon isn't going to die. Asha needs to use him to overthrow Euron and unmake the results of the Kingsmoot.

[Hippocras]

On another thread I have been discussing Urrathon Night-Walker and the possibility this behind the scenes character with the glass candle is either Euron or Euron's teacher.

One of the arguments in favour of the theory is the story of Urrathon IV Goodbrother which GRRM seems to have planted in the obscure histories as a hint:

Urrathon IV Goodbrother - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org)

This story suggests, among other things, that Theon's absence from the Kingsmoot can be used to invalidate Euron's election. It is the primary argument IMO for why Theon might be kept alive, for now. All it might take would be someone to make the case to Stannis that Euron poses a very significant threat to "his" Kingdom, and that therefore Euron's right to rule the Iron Islands needs to be contested which can't happen if Theon is dead. It is very likely in fact that Tristifer and Asha make this case to Stannis in their meeting with him in TWoW.

Stannis is quite cut off from the world at the crofter's village near Winterfell. However Tycho Nestoris and the Ironborn who arrived with him might have brought word from the outside, including news of Euron's activities in the Reach. It just so happens that Stannis's wife is a Florent and her brother's son fled to Oldtown after Garlan Tyrell brough an army to claim their castle. So Stannis has family connections to a place that Euron is about to attack. And Melisandre's vison indicates, possibly, that Euron's attacks on the Reach are what she mistook for a tide swallowing Eastwatch, and that Euron is therefore one aspect of the Great War of light and dark that Mel speaks of.