What were King Egg's Reforms?

[The Bard of Banefort]

In TWOIAF, it's stated that Aegon V spent his reign passing or attempting to pass reforms that were met with resistance from the nobility. Assuming that these reforms were influenced by Egg's travels as a squire, and based on what we see in the main series, what do you think some of these reforms were?

There's at least one that I think we can confidently link back to Egg:

Quote

Do you see that window, ser?" Jaime used a sword to point. "That was Raymun Darry's bedchamber. Where King Robert slept, on our return from Winterfell. Ned Stark's daughter had run off after her wolf savaged Joff, you'll recall. My sister wanted the girl to lose a hand. The old penalty, for striking one of the blood royal. Robert told her she was cruel and mad. 

Dunk was supposed to lose a hand and foot for striking Aerion, and the trial by combat that commenced in lieu of that was what led to Prince Baelor's death. Jaime's quote from AFFC makes it sound like this punishment was outlawed long before his time, which would line up with Egg's reign (or even Maekar's, if Egg convinced him to do it first).

Other examples that trouble Egg in A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms include Eustace Osgrey's smallfolk being forced to fight in a battle they are not properly trained for, and hedge knights like Dunk and Kyle the Cat losing their possessions to wealthy lords during Butterwell's tourney.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

8 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

In TWOIAF, it's stated that Aegon V spent his reign passing or attempting to pass reforms that were met with resistance from the nobility. Assuming that these reforms were influenced by Egg's travels as a squire, and based on what we see in the main series, what do you think some of these reforms were?

There's at least one that I think we can confidently link back to Egg:

Dunk was supposed to lose a hand and foot for striking Aerion, and the trial by combat that commenced in lieu of that was what led to Prince Baelor's death. Jaime's quote from AFFC makes it sound like this punishment was outlawed long before his time, which would line up with Egg's reign (or even Maekar's, if Egg convinced him to do it first).

Other examples that trouble Egg in A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms include Eustace Osgrey's smallfolk being forced to fight in a battle they are not properly trained for, and hedge knights like Dunk and Kyle the Cat losing their possessions to wealthy lords during Butterwell's tourney.

Tax reform that benefitted the poor (and took money from the nobles). Probably limiting things nobles could freely do to the poor. I would guess lowering their ability to just kill/punish peasants at will. For example of a failed reform, perhaps if Aegon had gotten what he wanted, the Hound could be tried for killing Mycah? It seems unlikely, but due to the Tansy Too Tall scene, wasn't she doing a puppet show. Protection of freedom to make puppet shows that made fun of the nobility lol (nobility would hate that). 

[Lord Varys]

It might be that Egg revoked the royal blood law there, but that would have been a very minor reform nobody but, perhaps, some members of the royal family opposed as physical attacks on royalty would have been rare and the law as such profited only a handful of people - the royals themselves.

I'd be not so sure about it, though, as Egg will see quite some attacks on royalty throughout his life, most notably the gruesome attack on his cousin Aelora as well as, perhaps, the murder of Haegon Blackfyre. Since his own rise to the throne was not exactly unanimous there might also have been attacks and assassination attempts on him and his family after he took the throne and started his reform agenda. Sure enough, Egg would not want another Ashford incident to happen ... but he would also not suffer attacks and threats against his wife and children. And we do know that Aemon told Egg to finally grow up when he took the throne. He certainly remained an idealist as a king, but it seems he was an idealist who had no problems getting his hands bloody.

Regarding his actual reforms we can expect a reduction of the rights and privileges of lords rather than him granting new rights to commoners (although the latter might also be the case). Jaehaerys II and Aerys II had little trouble restoring the old order and that should have been harder if Egg had changed the society by way of creating new (legal or judicial) institutions run by commoners.

In details I'd think that lords would have lost the right of pits and gallows on the petty lord level, and I think there would have been attempts to establish a royal judicial system limiting or rivaling the power of the lords. He could created sheriffs, for instance. The treasury bureaucracy might have also been expanded, not with the intention to massively increase the revenue of the Crown but to stop lords from paying their own taxes by over-exploiting their peasants.

There would have been easier ways for the commoners to petition the Crown to interfere with local misrule, perhaps also by way of new royal representatives on the village or town level.

I could also imagine Egg trying to build a standing army to enforce the will of the Crown. We hear about his knights having to interfere repeatedly in the affairs of the Westerlands during Tytos' misrule - it could be he always had to call his banners, etc. ... or he raised taxes/tariffs, etc. in the Crownlands to be able to feed a couple of hundred/thousand household knights and even more men-at-arms, serving as a peacekeeping force he could send out to punish lords abusing their powers (as he saw it).

There would have been even bigger plans, of course, plans he thought he needed the dragons for.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I don’t think it’s that assailants can get away with hitting royalty so much as that there would need to be some kind of trial first. Baelor clearly thought that Dunk was justified in defending Tanselle, and in TSS, Dunk has to fight Longinch because Rohanne and Eustace refuse to bring their case to Lord Rowan. Whatever happens, cutting off someone’s hand for hitting a prince fell far enough out of favor that Robert considered it cruel and unusual punishment less than a century later.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don’t think it’s that assailants can get away with hitting royalty so much as that there would need to be some kind of trial first. Baelor clearly thought that Dunk was justified in defending Tanselle, and in TSS, Dunk has to fight Longinch because Rohanne and Eustace refuse to bring their case to Lord Rowan. Whatever happens, cutting off someone’s hand for hitting a prince fell far enough out of favor that Robert considered it cruel and unusual punishment less than a century later.

Arya was of the highest nobility, however.

Killing Mycah was like swatting a fly, to most of them.  The law had either become more brutal, as far as commoners were concerned, or else nobody cared what the law said.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don’t think it’s that assailants can get away with hitting royalty so much as that there would need to be some kind of trial first. Baelor clearly thought that Dunk was justified in defending Tanselle, and in TSS, Dunk has to fight Longinch because Rohanne and Eustace refuse to bring their case to Lord Rowan. Whatever happens, cutting off someone’s hand for hitting a prince fell far enough out of favor that Robert considered it cruel and unusual punishment less than a century later.

There was a trial in Dunk's case. Although the reason for it is pretty weird as Baelor Breakspear is king in all but name, and Maekar just his little brother and Aerion an asshead younger son.

In the absence of Daeron II his word should have been law, meaning if he had wanted to dismiss the case of Aerion and Maekar he could have easily done so. That he didn't and instead risked his own life makes for a fun story, but is still strange.

28 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Arya was of the highest nobility, however.

Killing Mycah was like swatting a fly, to most of them.  The law had either become more brutal, as far as commoners were concerned, or else nobody cared what the law said.

Robert didn't seem to want a trial, so the Mycah thing is just a murder he ignores. Arya is also not on trial, it is just an informal hearing with Ned and Robert which grows larger because Cersei shows up there, too.

[Alester Florent]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

There was a trial in Dunk's case. Although the reason for it is pretty weird as Baelor Breakspear is king in all but name, and Maekar just his little brother and Aerion an asshead younger son.

In the absence of Daeron II his word should have been law, meaning if he had wanted to dismiss the case of Aerion and Maekar he could have easily done so. That he didn't and instead risked his own life makes for a fun story, but is still strange.

Is it possible that the Hand's authority doesn't stretch to matters concerning the royal family personally, or at the very least that there's a big grey area there? While it's a bit different in Baelor's case, of course, I can imagine that kings wouldn't be keen on the Hand having the authority to dispense justice concerning their sons and grandchildren without their express say-so.

Baelor tells Dunk that there will have to be a trial, with three judges, in which he would only be one of three, so apparently can't dismiss the charges out of hand once they've been brought. Rather like Tywin's trial of Tyrion, in which Tywin is also king in all but name, but apparently still needs Mace and Oberyn to sit alongside him.

There is surely also a consideration that Dunk's actions were extremely public and some process of justice must be seen to be done. I suspect that if he'd had a completely free hand Baelor would still have punished Dunk, but given him a relatively light punishment: a day in the stocks or whatever, rather than the death or mutilation Aerion was pressing for.

The whole scenario in that story is extremely contrived though, even so.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

Is it possible that the Hand's authority doesn't stretch to matters concerning the royal family personally, or at the very least that there's a big grey area there? While it's a bit different in Baelor's case, of course, I can imagine that kings wouldn't be keen on the Hand having the authority to dispense justice concerning their sons and grandchildren without their express say-so.

Thing is, Baelor isn't just Hand of the King, he is also Protector of the Realm, a title all the previous monarchs but Rhaenyra kept for themselves (and she may have given it to Daemon only as a treat or because she felt it an improper title for a woman). Daeron II died in the spring, but him investing Baelor with that kind of authority might have been a sign that he was ailing already or at least kind of sharing the kingship with his heir.

As Hand, Protector, elder brother/uncle, and future king Baelor has the authority to command his sons, brothers, nephews. There can't be a question about that. And he could have exerted that behind closed doors with a minimal loss of face for Maekar, Daeron, and Aerion. He could tell them how things would go and they are forced to obey.

The reason why he wouldn't do that in the story is likely that he prefers a conciliatory approach and has no interest in broadening the gulf between him and Maekar which clearly exist. I mean, the guy also tells Egg to love his brother Aerion ... he is kind of hopeless there.

And he surely also only gradually gets to know Dunk and sees his qualities, eventually deciding to join his team.

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

Baelor tells Dunk that there will have to be a trial, with three judges, in which he would only be one of three, so apparently can't dismiss the charges out of hand once they've been brought. Rather like Tywin's trial of Tyrion, in which Tywin is also king in all but name, but apparently still needs Mace and Oberyn to sit alongside him.

Tywin also was free to have no trial, to accuse somebody else (by forcing Cersei to retract her accusation, say), or to pardon Tyrion on the spot.

The reason why didn't seems to be that he was quite happy to destroy his son that way (remember, he must have also been aware of Shae's confession in advance in light of the fact that he fucked her most likely not only afterwards!) and because the Tyrell alliance demanded that Mace be pacified. He was the one pushing for a trial. If Jaime had been accused of this crime there wouldn't have been a trial, of course, and if the Tyrells had demanded one a hundred times.

Technically, one imagines, Lord Ashford is in charge of a trial on his lands and Baelor goes along with that. But that is just him being polite and nice. He speaks with the King's Voice, so he can do what he wants. He downplays his own power, obviously.

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

There is surely also a consideration that Dunk's actions were extremely public and some process of justice must be seen to be done. I suspect that if he'd had a completely free hand Baelor would still have punished Dunk, but given him a relatively light punishment: a day in the stocks or whatever, rather than the death or mutilation Aerion was pressing for.

Not at the point when Baelor decided to fight for Dunk's cause. You don't fight against your own brother and nephews if you just think a guy had a right to a fair trial.

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

The whole scenario in that story is extremely contrived though, even so.

I think it could have better if the Hand prince had also been the father of the asshead prince. So we would have had a scenario where the Hand prince named some more judges to seem not totally biased, etc. but the whole thing would be clearly a sham trial. And then the other prince would play the Baelor role.

Of course, with the larger framework one can speculate or pretend that Baelor tried to avoid using his actual power too much in the wake of the Blackfyre Rebellion, to appear above the factions, a just future king, etc. Also to not give the impression that House Targaryen was ripping itself apart so early after the Redgrass Field. But then he does exactly that by actually fighting his brother and nephews in a fight which might last to and involve the death of many or all champions.

Hardly a surprise that Peake and Daemon II staged their rebellion barely two years later if Daeron II's sons and grandsons start to kill each other over trivialities.

[Darth Sidious]

Egg spent too much time with Dunk. More than was good for him for his time. He could have passed his reforms if he were a stronger king. Too bad he got the throne through election. He probably wanted to grant lands and rights to the regular people of the land. He lacked the power of Jaeherys. The J man had enough power to force the north to stop the lord’s right to sleep with other men’s brides. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

59 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said:

Egg spent too much time with Dunk. More than was good for him for his time. He could have passed his reforms if he were a stronger king. Too bad he got the throne through election. He probably wanted to grant lands and rights to the regular people of the land. He lacked the power of Jaeherys. The J man had enough power to force the north to stop the lord’s right to sleep with other men’s brides. 

J man had a giant, fire-breathing dragon.

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

J man had a giant, fire-breathing dragon.

And the real mover behind well, Queen Alysanne's laws, had another dragon of her own.

[SeanF]

I don’t know to what extent peasants are tied to their estates, as villeins, in this world. Perhaps one intended reform was to phase out villeinage.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

3 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

Egg spent too much time with Dunk. More than was good for him for his time. He could have passed his reforms if he were a stronger king. Too bad he got the throne through election. He probably wanted to grant lands and rights to the regular people of the land. He lacked the power of Jaeherys. The J man had enough power to force the north to stop the lord’s right to sleep with other men’s brides. 

He spent the right amount of time. Fighting for a better world is good, even when you don’t succeed. Egg became a better person because of Dunk, and that is good. 

[Hugorfonics]

Legelized weed and canceled student debt.

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Legelized weed and canceled student debt.

Truly the greatest king Westeros has ever seen

[Darth Sidious]

On 11/27/2023 at 11:34 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

J man had a giant, fire-breathing dragon.

Yes he did. Egg is a different story.  Egg was kinda wimpy. Something could take place in a future story which could change my mind about him. But he is weak in my eyes until then. I don’t think he has the guts to bond with a dragon. He doesn’t carry himself with authority. You can’t fake it with dragons. They know when the human is weak. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 12/11/2023 at 1:14 PM, Darth Sidious said:

Yes he did. Egg is a different story.  Egg was kinda wimpy. Something could take place in a future story which could change my mind about him. But he is weak in my eyes until then. I don’t think he has the guts to bond with a dragon. He doesn’t carry himself with authority. You can’t fake it with dragons. They know when the human is weak. 

....I think you may have read a different book than me, lol. He was 9 or 10 in these books, and he actively stands up for others at several points, never shies away from scary situations, and essentially constantly acts brave. I really don't know how anyone could come away with this opinion. 

Well, actually I do. Egg probably doesn't have the same worldview as you, and god forbid that. Let's insult him. As someone called wimpy all the time as a child, despite the fact that I CONSTNATLY stood up to bullies and fought back, let me tell you - Being physically strong does not equal brave, nor does being physically weak equal mean you lack bravery or guts. My bullies were twice my size usually, yet I always fought back. Trust me, the true coward was them. That's why they chose me as their target, and not someone their own size. 

"They know when a human is weak" - Perhaps you should consult them then, as you are dead wrong about this. 

[Gilbert Green]

I am even less eager to find out about Egg's reforms, than I am to find out about Aragorn's tax policies.  I'm sure he attempted good reforms, just as I am sure Aragorn's tax policies were excellent.  I'd rather just leave it at that.

[sifth]

Egg was probably a good king. Not going to lie, finding out that Tywin destroyed all of his reforms, just gave me another reason to hate him.

[Gilbert Green]

12 hours ago, sifth said:

Egg was probably a good king. Not going to lie, finding out that Tywin destroyed all of his reforms, just gave me another reason to hate him.

Yes, that's certainly the idea.  Egg was a good king who wanted to help and serve his fellow men; opposed by selfish wicked corrupt men who wanted to oppress their fellow men.   And I'm perfectly fine with that.   I just dread too many specifics, lest Egg seem less like a man of his time, and more like a modern insert.