Israel - Hamas War XII

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Zorral said:

“Viscerally, Biden is famous for empathizing with a lot of people,” the person said. “He doesn’t have that same feel for the Palestinians.”

 

And it shows…

[Zorral]

We Are No Strangers to Human Suffering, but We’ve Seen Nothing Like the Siege of Gaza
By Michelle Nunn, Tjada D’Oyen McKenna, Jan Egeland, Abby Maxman, Jeremy Konyndyk and Janti Soeripto

Ms. Nunn is president and C.E.O. of CARE USA. Ms. McKenna is C.E.O. of Mercy Corps. Mr. Egeland is secretary general of the Norwegian Refugee Council. Ms. Maxman is president and C.E.O. of Oxfam America. Mr. Konyndyk is president of Refugees International. Ms. Soeripto is president and C.E.O. of Save the Children U.S.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/11/opinion/international-world/us-government-gaza-humanitarian-aid.html

Quote

 

We are no strangers to human suffering — to conflict, to natural disasters, to some of the world’s largest and gravest catastrophes. We were there when fighting erupted in Khartoum, Sudan. As bombs rained down on Ukraine. When earthquakes leveled southern Turkey and northern Syria. As the Horn of Africa faced its worst drought in years. The list goes on.

But as the leaders of some of the world’s largest global humanitarian organizations, we have seen nothing like the siege of Gaza. In the more than two months since the horrifying attack on Israel that killed more than 1,200 people and resulted in some 240 abductions, about 18,000 Gazans — including more than 7,500 children — have been killed, according to the Gazan health ministry. More children have been reported killed in this conflict than in all major global conflicts combined last year.

The atrocities committed by Hamas on Oct. 7 were unconscionable and depraved, and the taking and holding of hostages is abhorrent. The calls for their release are urgent and justified. But the right to self-defense does not and cannot require unleashing this humanitarian nightmare on millions of civilians. It is not a path to accountability, healing or peace. In no other war we can think of in this century have civilians been so trapped, without any avenue or option to escape to save themselves and their children.

Most of our organizations have been operating in Gaza for decades. But we can do nothing remotely adequate to address the level of suffering there without an immediate and complete cease-fire and an end to the siege. The aerial bombardments have rendered our jobs impossible. The withholding of water, fuel, food and other basic goods has created an enormous scale of need that aid alone cannot offset. ....

Then, this, which will be, as Jeet Heer reports:

The Abu Ghraib scandal sent shock waves through the Middle East with repercussions to this day. What's happening now is on a far larger scale than Abu Ghraib. This will be Biden's legacy.

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Zorral

[Altherion]

23 hours ago, Kalbear said:

here's a good comparison example - the battle of Raqqa in 2017. Massive shelling took place, bombing was quite severe and 'dynamic' - meaning that it was not planned directly but was a call-in from on the ground troops, and therefore was more indiscriminate. It caused anywhere from 1500 to 1900 civilian deaths, 80% of the structures of the city were made uninhabitable - and killed at least 1400 combatants with another 700 captured. Some good lessons and AAR here too. I say this is comparable because ISIS specifically planned on making this as hard as possible, used human shields, and it was one of the worst battles of the ISIS campaign - and they still had a 1-1 ratio of civilian deaths to combatant deaths. 

But if you look at that wiki page, then surely you realize why the civilian casualties were so low. The wiki article puts as "Tens of thousands of civilians displaced", but what it means is that practically everyone ran away so that even though 80% of the structures in the city were hit, relatively few people died. This is not possible in Gaza because the civilians have nowhere to go -- it's a tiny piece of land bordered by Israel (which obviously will not allow anyone in), Egypt (which also refuses to allow any refugees) and the Mediterranean Sea. The situation is not comparable at all.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Altherion said:

But if you look at that wiki page, then surely you realize why the civilian casualties were so low. The wiki article puts as "Tens of thousands of civilians displaced", but what it means is that practically everyone ran away so that even though 80% of the structures in the city were hit, relatively few people died. This is not possible in Gaza because the civilians have nowhere to go -- it's a tiny piece of land bordered by Israel (which obviously will not allow anyone in), Egypt (which also refuses to allow any refugees) and the Mediterranean Sea. The situation is not comparable at all.

That's not the only story, but Israel could very quickly solve that problem if they chose to do so. That they consider all Palestinians potential combatants - including women and children - is on them. 

The situation is not comparable only because of Israel's decisions. 

[Zorral]

The U.N. General Assembly counters a U.S. veto with a mass vote for a cease-fire.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/12/world/middleeast/un-general-assembly-israel-cease-fire.html?smid=url-share

Quote

 

Dennis Francis of Trinidad and Tobago, the current president of the U.N. General Assembly, speaking before a note on a nonbinding resolution demanding “an immediate humanitarian cease-fire” in Gaza.Credit...Angela Weiss/Agence France-Presse —

The U.N. General Assembly demanded an immediate cease-fire in the Israel-Hamas war in an overwhelming vote on Tuesday that highlighted much of the world’s desire to bring the bloody conflict to an end.

About three-quarters of the body’s members voted in favor of the nonbinding resolution, underscoring the isolation of Israel and the United States, which last week blocked a cease-fire resolution in the Security Council.

Resounding applause and cheers erupted after the vote was announced: 153 in favor, 10 against and 23 abstentions. The resolution required two-thirds majority for passage.

“How many more thousands of lives must be lost before we do something?” Dennis Francis, a diplomat from Trinidad and Tobago currently serving as president of the General Assembly, said in an address to the chamber before the vote. “No more time is left. The carnage must stop.”

The resolution was put forth by the U.N.’s Arab Group and the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, which represents Arab and Muslim countries. Despite their support of the nonbinding resolution, none of the 57 members of the Muslim organization have offered Gazans refugee status in their countries.

More than 15,000 people, many of them women and children, have been killed in Gaza, according to local health officials, since Israel declared war on Hamas after the militant group launched a terrorist attack on Oct. 7, killing more than 1,200 people and taking 240 others hostage.

General Assembly resolutions are never legally binding, but they carry political weight and are a symbolic reflection of the wider perspective among the U.N.’s 193 members.

The countries that joined the U.S. and Israel in rejecting the cease-fire resolution on Tuesday were Austria, the Czech Republic, Guatemala, Liberia, Micronesia, Paraguay and Papua New Guinea and Nauru. Among the countries that abstained were Britain, Hungary, South Sudan and Germany. ....

 

Total eff up, TOTAL, by Israel and the US -- and by the US even in the US.

[Mudguard]

Looks like the IDF has begun flooding the tunnels with seawater.  

https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-12-12-23/h_df5dafccc41f6a3c38876f05aa24960c

Quote

The Israelis informed the US that they have begun “carefully testing out” flooding some of Gaza's tunnels with seawater “on a limited basis” to test the ability to degrade the tunnel network on a larger scale, a US official told CNN on Tuesday.  

The Israelis are still unsure of whether it will work, the official said, but they assured the US that they are being careful to only test it in tunnels where they do not believe hostages are being held.

It's hard to know how fast the tunnels are being flooded, and whether some portions would flood so quickly that escape would be impossible.  Depending on how the tunnels are connected, you could have a flash flooding type scenario in some portions of the tunnels, even if it looks like the tunnel in other areas were being flooded very slowly.  The IDF would have had to map out completely the tunnel section being flooded and be sure that it wasn't connected to another tunnel system to be sure that no hostages were located in the tunnels to be flooded.  Theoretically, this is possible, but who knows if this was actually done.

Long term concern though is that this is going to ruin the aquifer and render Gaza uninhabitable.  How likely is such a scenario?  No idea.  I'm not sure how much salt can be filtered out by the rocks as the salt drains to the aquifer.  And would rainfall eventually push all the salt into the aquifer?  I doubt that any environmental testing was done before they started pumping.

[Zorral]

BibiIDFetc. keep making worse horrors hour by hour.

Biden says Israel is losing support worldwide over ‘indiscriminate bombing’ in Gaza

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/12/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-palestine/

[fionwe1987]

At this point, can we stop pretending the bombing is targeted, humane, and the only way forward? Or are we going to see continued hymns sung to the mythical restraint if the IDF?

[Zorral]

IDF can't get over being played. So thousands of Palestinian babies, children, women and guys must die in the worst ways possible to show, well, you know what. Even though they are appalling the world, and now, even, finally, Israel's staunch supporter, all his life, President Biden. This is how Bibietc. have repaid Biden.  But then, Bibietc.s always had contempt for Biden.

Catastrophe for the whole world that need global partnership to save the environment and any vestige of democracy and humanity.

Thank you Hamas, for playing Israel and the rest successfully for decades now.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Zorral

[karaddin]

Maybe its just my perspective living in a country that's fucked a bunch of its surface soil via salinity from over-irrigation and my early adult years having a years long extreme drought but its the potential eco-destruction of the tunnel flooding that really horrifies me. The people that are directly killed by flooding the tunnels might be horrendous, but its still 'countable' in the sense that its going to be a concrete number of people, but the impact if this fucks the acquifer cannot be measured and is extremely long term. 

I cannot imagine doing that to an area that neighbours my own water sources even if I didn't give a fuck about the people that live there. Is there seriously no overlap between the acquifer below Gaza and those below Israel?

Editing to answer my own question: If https://water.fanack.com/palestine/water-resources-in-palestine/ is a trustworthy source (I've never seen it before, but the brief skim looking for the map doesn't look like its a particularly political source) then there's a distinct coastal acquifer below Gaza, coastal Israel and the areas of Israel directly inland from Gaza, but the main acquifers are completely distinct around the rivers which I guess does make sense. Still I'd never fuck with the water.

Edited December 13, 2023 by karaddin

[kissdbyfire]

25 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Thank you Hamas, for playing Israel and the rest successfully for decades now.

I don't buy it. I don't buy that Israel has been played in any way. It feels like they are gleefully embracing the opportunity to destroy Gaza, up their aggressive and illegal settlement project n the West Bank, and rid the region of as many Palestinians as possible. 

Of course, the atrocious terrorist attack by Hamas makes everything even worse for Palestinians. Because the horrific death toll and extreme viciousness and cruelty employed by Hamas made the Israeli government angry and more determined in its mission but also because they know they dropped the ball by ignoring the several warnings, so  on top of everything else, they were humiliated. 

It also feels, at least for now, that the more the international community cries for a ceasefire and calls out their numerous violations, the more they double down, triple down, quadruple down.

 

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don't buy it. I don't buy that Israel has been played in any way. It feels like they are gleefully embracing the opportunity to destroy Gaza, up their aggressive and illegal settlement project n the West Bank, and rid the region of as many Palestinians as possible. 

Giving the phrase "From the river to the sea" a whole other meaning, in the process. Especially since part of the plan is to bring in the sea, to seed perpetual destruction so return to the land becomes impossible.

I feel nothing but contempt for the Israeli state, anymore. It is living proof that ethnostates are evil.

[Zorral]

13 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don't buy that Israel has been played in any way. It feels like they are gleefully embracing the opportunity to destroy Gaza, up their aggressive and illegal settlement project n the West Bank, and rid the region of as many Palestinians as possible. 

This is true, but I am commenting long term, when most of the Palestinians are dead or expelled, which is happening far more quickly than some imagined could be done -- this will trigger international antisemitic violence internationally such as has not been experienced over a century by now.  And Israel will be standing alone.  Not even the US will be protecting them with their military umbrella, particularly after the utter contempt bibietc. have shown for Biden right now. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/13/netanyahu-israel-biden-criticism-gaza/

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.... A billboard with Biden’s picture that hung for weeks across from the U.S. ambassador’s residence in Jerusalem reading “Thank you Mr. President” was replaced last week with a poster of Rep. Elise Stefanik, the New York Republican who grilled three university presidents over antisemitism on campus. ....

Nor will Israel be able to shield itself any longer behind the long time sufferings of its people.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/13/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-palestine/

Quote

.... The health system has collapsed in Gaza, and the besieged enclave is experiencing “a public health disaster,” Lynn Hastings, the top U.N. humanitarian official for the occupied Palestinian territories, said Wednesday, adding that about a million people — or almost half the population of Gaza — are crowded into Rafah in the south. President Biden said “indiscriminate bombing” is eroding international support for Israel, in some of the sharpest criticism from Israel’s closest ally over its offensive in Gaza since the latest war with Hamas began. ....

Not to mention those videos of IDF humiliating, torturing, mutilating Palestinian, including the language in which they speak of Palestinians, that have gone out there to the entire world -- I put up the link to that in this thread yesterday.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Zorral

[Relic]

Here we are, 9 and a half weeks later, and the death tool is creeping up to 19,000 people, mostly civilians, mostly women and children, with no end to this atrocity in sight. History will remember and judge us for this. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Relic

[Relic]

Meanwhile, business is booming for the warhawks. Let it never be said that the USA didn't know how to make a buck off the bones of innocents. 

The administration approved the emergency sale to Israel of nearly 14,000 rounds of tank ammunition worth more than $106 million, the State Department said.

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Thank you Mr. President” was replaced last week with a poster of Rep. Elise Stefanik,

Wasn't Stefanik tweeting some vile & disgusting antisemitic shit just a while ago? Or am I mistaking her for any other asshat Republican?

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Relic said:

Meanwhile, business is booming for the warhawks. Let it never be said that the USA didn't know how to make a buck off the bones of innocents. 

The administration approved the emergency sale to Israel of nearly 14,000 rounds of tank ammunition worth more than $106 million, the State Department said.

And btw wasn't that done bypassing congressional approval or something? If not this, something else very similar involving more guns, more ammo, more ways to kill people for a truckload of money. 

[Zorral]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Wasn't Stefanik tweeting some vile & disgusting antisemitic shit just a while ago? Or am I mistaking her for any other asshat Republican?

She's the one who went after the universities such as Penn State and Harvard for antisemitism.  Penn State's president, a woman, walked into the fascists' trap in their war against education, and she got removed.  However, the president of Harvard, a woman and BLACK, saw the trap, because been there had that go on my whole life, did not, and is still president of Harvard. But now its out there for the glee of all the fascists that higher education is antisemitic -- which, of course They are too, but They use it all and stupid Dems far for their shyte every time because they are terrified of making anybody mad, even antisemites and racists.

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, Zorral said:

She's the one who went after the universities such as Penn State and Harvard for antisemitism.  Penn State's president, a woman, walked into the fascists' trap in their war against education, and she got removed.  However, the president of Harvard, a woman and BLACK, saw the trap, because been there had that go on my whole life, did not, and is still president of Harvard. But now its out there for the glee of all the fascists that higher education is antisemitic -- which, of course They are too, but They use it all and stupid Dems far for their shyte every time because they are terrified of making anybody mad, even antisemites and racists.

Oh yeah, I followed all that. But that's not what I meant originally... I seem to recall Stefanik tweeting some antisemitic bollocks a few (or many?) months ago? Like I said, I may be confusing her w/ one of the other nutters in the GOP, but I'm almost certain it was Stefanik... Gonna try to dig it up in a bit. Because if my memory serves, it's just another classical example of Maga hypocrisy - not that we don't have a shit ton of such examples already. They're all so gross!

[kissdbyfire]

@Zorral, here's some of what I was talking about.

https://www.jta.org/2023/12/11/politics/is-that-really-her-liberal-jews-say-elise-stefanik-hailed-as-a-hero-of-the-house-antisemitism-hearings-has-baggage-of-her-own

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In the past, however, the upstate New York Republican has drawn condemnation for comments echoing the white supremacist “great replacement theory,” which in its original form claims that Jews are orchestrating the mass immigration of people of color into Western nations in order to replace their white populations. In 2021, Stefanik’s campaign posted on social media that Democrats plan to “overthrow our current electorate” by allowing undocumented immigrants to enter the country.

And: