Israel - Hamas war XIII

[Ran]

5 minutes ago, Zorral said:

You are saying the sociopaths that Putin's taken out of prison and released now back into population and committing the same crimes back home as they did before -- and then upon Ukrainians -- aren't as wicked as Hamas. 

No, I'm saying that the Ukrainian defenders of Mariupol were not as wicked as Hamas.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Ran

[Zorral]

How bad the Israelis are, how so bad it is in Gazas --was shown today that the US didn't veto this time, humanitarian pauses for Gaza to receive aid, but merely abstained.  The UN by a vast majority sees what Israel is doing, has done, as criminal.

Next time around, hopefully the US won't abstain, and will stop providing Israel with military and financial aid.

[Ran]

29 minutes ago, Zorral said:

humanitarian pauses for Gaza to receive aid

It should be noted that Israel has recently offered a renewed ceasefire and humanitarian pause, if Hamas resumed returning hostages. Hamas has refused.

I think this bill was just fine, and I'm not surprised the US didn't block it, since it basically helps Israel while not attempting to force them to stop prosecuting their legitimate war against Hamas.

There's also hundreds of trucks, daily, that are not getting into Gaza not because of the IDF -- they have cleared them to enter -- but because the UN is botching its organization efforts. Hopefully the increased funding will not be wasted on aid that won't get into Gaza, but will instead fund a better-organized effort to get aid in more efficiently.

[kissdbyfire]

I think there’s more to this abstention today by the US.

[Zorral]

42 minutes ago, Ran said:

the UN is botching its organization efforts

Ha!

[House Balstroko]

I think many of the people in western countries protesting against the situation in Gaza are harming the Palestinian cause with idiotic slogans like “By the River to the Sea” ( unfortunately, those do still occasionally pop up, though are thankfully less prevalent than they used to be). 
 

It is imperative that groups advocating for the liberation of Palestine, do so by first recognising the reality that Israel is a sovereign nation. A Palestinian state can only consist of the West Bank and Gaza, nothing more. 

[GrimTuesday]

23 minutes ago, House Balstroko said:

I think many of the people in western countries protesting against the situation in Gaza are harming the Palestinian cause with idiotic slogans like “By the River to the Sea” ( unfortunately, those do still occasionally pop up, though are thankfully less prevalent than they used to be). 
 

It is imperative that groups advocating for the liberation of Palestine, do so by first recognising the reality that Israel is a sovereign nation. A Palestinian state can only consist of the West Bank and Gaza, nothing more. 

Demanding that a people just accept their dispossession, especially one that is still within living human memory is gross. Jewish people have the right to safety and security, but not at the expense of another people. One multiethnic state where both Israelis and Palestinians are afforded equal rights and the safety and protection of all people is guaranteed by the state from the river to the sea is the only just solution. This does not mean the dispossession of Israelis, but reparations will have to be made to Palestinians.

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think there’s more to this abstention today by the US.

There really isn't. It's not like The US did it because of some policy shift, it's more so the US negotiated to make this a craven, meaningless motion that does nothing to stop the Israeli ethnic cleansing campaign (in so far as the UN could ever do anything to stop this). Humanitarian pauses are meaningless, it's a small window of peace before the horrors of war start up again and is little more than PR.

[Zorral]

The UN stops delivery of food and supplies to Gaza as a communications blackout hinders coordination  

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/18/the-un-stops-delivery-of-food-and-supplies-to-gaza.html

‘It doesn’t get any worse:’ UN says more than 1 in 4 people in Gaza are starving because of war
 Dec 21

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/it-doesnt-get-any-worse-un-says-more-than-1-in-4-people-in-gaza-are-starving-because-of-war#:~:text=At the start of the,has been entering for weeks.

Quote

 

.... Thursday’s report from the U.N. underscored the failure of weeks of U.S. efforts to ensure greater aid reaches Palestinians. At the start of the war, Israel stopped all deliveries of food, water, medicine and fuel into the territory. After U.S. pressure, it allowed a trickle of aid in through Egypt. But U.N. agencies say only 10 percent of Gaza’s food needs has been entering for weeks.

This week, Israel began allowing aid to enter Gaza through its Kerem Shalom crossing. But a blast Thursday morning hit the Palestinian side of the crossing, forcing the U.N. to stop its pickups of aid there, according to Juliette Touma, spokesperson of UNRWA, the U.N. agency for Palestinian refugees. At least four people were killed, the nearby hospital reported. Palestinian authorities blamed Israel for the blast, but its cause could not immediately be confirmed.

Delivery of aid to much of the Gaza Strip has become difficult or impossible due to continued fighting, U.N. officials have said. ....

 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/14/middleeast/united-nations-staff-deaths-gaza-intl-hnk/index.html

 

 

[DireWolfSpirit]

11 hours ago, Ran said:

I know the feeling of impotence must bother you, but that's because you are in fact impotent in this matter (as are we all), and the sooner you accept that, the better for your mental health.

This is where I landed very nearly immediately.

There is absolutely nothing redeeming or relieving with this entire depressing conflict.

Im on no side but the side of deep disappointment in this long ugly inability of peoples failure to avoid living in conflict.

Just pathetic and no progress or faith that this is anything but another stop on a ridiculous circular track that we will end up at the exact same spot in another 10-15 years no doubt.

Its the "holy land" because the failures all around are of biblical proportion.

Edited December 23, 2023 by DireWolfSpirit

[kissdbyfire]

Can’t say I’m surprised.

https://www.972mag.com/israel-bombing-endangered-hostages-gaza/
 

Quote

Another source told +972 and Local Call that the Israeli army tried to avoid killing hostages, but the emphasis at first was placed on military goals. “In the first two or three weeks, we didn’t have enough intelligence about the hostages, and they were not the top priority,” the source said. “We didn’t start the day with an update on the status of the hostages. It wasn’t our top priority then — and the truth is, they aren’t today either. Unfortunately, I don’t think the army can [free the hostages through rescue operations]. I don’t think we will be able to release hostages without a deal.”

Interview w/ Yuval Abraham, the journo who wrote the article quoted above.

 

[Zorral]

We aren't entirely impotent in all aspects of this dreadful matter.  We can put loads of pressure on the current occupant of the White House to push with all force possible to at least allow the people of Palestine to be get food and water and medical care.  He NEEDS our votes.  That this time around instead of vetoing the UN resolution, we abstained only, which is a big shift right there.  The UN agencies clearly are wanting to provide aid and assistance -- they are not 'botching' it -- they are prevented, not botching, not matter what Israel says, and Israel prevents it by the US provision of military gear and money -- which, o ya, goes to US arms builders, contractors and suppliers.

 

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, Zorral said:

not matter what Israel says

Yes, we know that you have this opinion as a general rule. What else is new?

[kissdbyfire]

16 minutes ago, Zorral said:

goes to US arms builders, contractors and suppliers.

 

A "win-win that we need to continue", according to Blinken. 

Edited December 23, 2023 by kissdbyfire

[Zorral]

THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
It’s Time for the U.S. to Give Israel Some Tough Love
Dec. 22, 2023

Gift link:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/22/opinion/israel-war-gaza.html?unlocked_article_code=1.IE0.yoS4.ur3ig780r96i&smid=url-share

~~~~~~~~~~

Despite Israel supporters attempting to shut down this information and those who see it  (while putting out their vision just as constantly) -- here it is again in a major media venue:

The compromise resolution, negotiated to avoid a veto from the United States, stopped well short of calling for a cease-fire. Aid workers say they cannot address the enclave’s deep needs because of intense Israeli airstrikes and fighting on the ground.

Gift link -- no paywall:
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/12/23/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news#aid-workers-criticize-a-un-resolution-on-gaza-aid-as-insufficient-without-a-cease-fire

Quote

 

United Nations and other aid workers warned on Saturday that a new U.N. Security Council resolution calling for stepped-up aid for Gaza’s embattled civilians would fail to stop the spiraling humanitarian crisis because it did not demand a full halt to the fighting.

The resolution called on the U.N. Secretary General to appoint a special coordinator for aid to Gaza and establish a mechanism to speed up aid delivery in consultation with all relevant parties.

But without a cease-fire to accompany the stepped-up assistance, aid officials said they cannot address the insufficient food and fuel entering the territory, the collapse of Gaza’s commercial sector, frequent comminations disruptions or the inability of relief workers to reach many areas because of intensive Israeli airstrikes and ground operations.

“Right now, we cannot deploy humanitarian aid. It’s impossible,” said Guillemette Thomas, the medical coordinator for Doctors Without Borders in Jerusalem, adding that the shutdown of communications networks has forced it to rely on satellite phones to coordinate food distribution. “People need to be able to get food and water without the fear of being bombed or killed or shot at any moment. We need to be able to move within the strip to access people,” she added.

“The only thing that would be helpful is a cease-fire.”

It was not clear whether the resolution would push Israel, which is not on the Security Council and so did not have a vote, to modify its approach to the war. While such resolutions are considered binding, countries often ignore them.

The resolution referenced a measure passed last month calling for “humanitarian pauses” and called for the “immediate and unconditional release of all hostages,” a demand that Hamas, which still holds about 120 Israelis, was unlikely to heed, hoping instead to exchange them for Palestinian prisoners held by Israel.

Israeli leaders have vowed to keep fighting until Hamas is destroyed and insist on checking all goods bound for Gaza to prevent the entry of weapons and other supplies that could benefit Hamas’s military effort.

After 11 weeks of war between Israel and Hamas in Gaza, international alarm has risen over the plight of the territory’s more than 2 million people, who are increasingly cut off from the outside world, displaced, cold and hungry. About 85 percent of Gaza’s people have fled their homes, and fierce Israeli bombardments have killed more than 20,000 people, about 70 percent of them women and children, according to the health authorities in Gaza.

This week, the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification, an international partnership of aid organizations, classified Gaza’s entire population as in crisis or worse in terms of access to food. It noted that this was the “highest share of people facing high levels of acute food insecurity” that the partnership has seen for any given area in nearly two decades of tracking.

Human Rights Watch this week accused the Israeli government of “using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare,” which it called “a war crime.”

People climbed on aid trucks carrying supplies, including water, in Rafah, in the southern Gaza Strip, on Sunday.Credit...Fatima Shbair/Associated Press
The Security Council resolution passed on Friday had been meticulously negotiated to avoid objections from the United States, which had vetoed a resolution earlier in December calling for a cease-fire. The United States said then that it backed Israel’s position that stopping the offensive would allow Hamas to rearm and continue to threaten Israel.

The new resolution, which passed after repeated delays with a vote of 13-0, with the United States and Russia abstaining, focused on aid delivery, not stopping the fighting.

It called on the warring parties to “allow, facilitate and enable the immediate, safe and unhindered delivery of humanitarian assistance” to civilians in Gaza and to “create the conditions for a sustainable cessation of hostilities.”

It was not clear how soon the special coordinator for aid to Gaza would be appointed and how fruitful their efforts would be. Nor did the resolution immediately undo any of the snarls that have limited the amount of aid entering Gaza, including a stringent search regime by the Israeli authorities, who say they want to prevent the entry of any goods that could benefit Hamas.

“The resolution maintains Israel’s security authority to monitor and inspect aid entering Gaza,” Israel’s ambassador to the United Nations, Gilad Erdan, said after the vote.

Juliette Touma, the director of communications for U.N.R.W.A., the largest U.N. agency in Gaza, said it may be too soon to know the full impact of the resolution.

“It is welcome, but only time will tell what real difference this resolution is going to make, and it needs to increase the humanitarian assistance that has been going into Gaza.”

The war began after a Hamas-led assault on southern Israel on Oct. 7, which killed about 1,200 people and saw 240 others taken back to Gaza as captives, according to Israeli officials. Since then, Gaza has been under siege by Israel, with very limited, and vastly insufficient amounts of aid entering via Gaza’s border with Egypt.

Last week, after significant international pressure, Israel opened its main cargo crossing into Gaza and began letting aid in. That crossing, Kerem Shalom, was open for the first time in this war after an Israeli cabinet vote on Dec. 15 to approve temporarily letting food and other humanitarian aid through.

When the direct crossings from Israel to Gaza were closed, aid trucks were forced to travel from Egypt to Kerem Shalom for inspection by the Israeli military, and then to return to Egypt and enter Gaza from there, drawing out and complicating the process.

The opening of Kerem Shalom was called for as part of the recent hostage deal with Hamas, and Israel was also under immense pressure from United States officials to provide trucks passage through it. If he crossing continues to operate, it could provide some relief, but the cabinet’s approval for its use was temporary.

Ms. Touma said that the aid entering Gaza during the war was woefully insufficient, less than 10 percent of what Gaza received before the war. And the fighting made distributing even limited aid impossible in many parts of Gaza.

“The ongoing military operation and the bombardment are definitely a challenge because you can’t deliver humanitarian assistance under a sky full of airstrikes, and there is very little assistance coming in,” Ms. Touma said.

The small amounts of aid entering Gaza and the complete collapse of the territory’s commercial sector mean that many families have exhausted their resources and are increasingly going hungry, according to aid groups and Gaza residents.

 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Zorral

[Ran]

Israel has offered a ceasefire. Hamas refused it. Go bitch at Hamas.

[kissdbyfire]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hanegbi-israel-wont-negotiate-with-hamas-on-hostages-now-will-remove-it-from-power/

"Hanegbi: Israel won’t negotiate with Hamas on hostages now, will remove it from power"

There's a ton more outlets w/ similar stories. I won't tell anyone to "go bitch to Israel" or whoever b/c I don't think that's what we are supposed to be doing? We have many people participating in these threads w/ very different opinions, but that's part of a healthy debate IMO. 

Edited December 23, 2023 by kissdbyfire

[Tywin et al.]

11 minutes ago, Ran said:

Israel has offered a ceasefire. Hamas refused it. Go bitch at Hamas.

They also broke the last one, but it's still Israel's fault! 

[Ran]

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

There's a ton more outlets w/ similar stories.

Did you see the date.on that article? What happened later?

Just memory hole whatever causes cognitive dissonance, I guess.

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, Ran said:

Did you see the date.on that article? What happened later?

Just memory hole whatever causes cognitive dissonance, I guess.

I did see the date. The point is, positions were reversed then, and yet I didn't see anyone complain about Israel unwillingness to deal w/ the terrorists then, even though they seem to be willing now. I don't know whether the murder of the 3 hostages put some pressure on the Israeli government to try harder to get more hostages. Perhaps that's what changed for them, especially in light of the reporting by Yuval Abraham linked up thread, w/ quotes about the hostages "not being a priority".  

[Ran]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

The point is, positions were reversed then, and yet I didn't see anyone complain about Israel unwillingness to deal w/ the terrorists then

It was the start of the war. Only children or the naive believe that statements made regarding diplomacy or negotiations are ever the final word. As there are few children around here, that is likely why few complained.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Ran