Israel - Hamas war XIV

[Kalbear]

15 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

They are! But so are Jews and yet only the latter are called colonizers. Or accused of wanting an ethnostate. Or of wanting to commit genocide despite that the former are actually being louder about the last two parts. There's no denying this. 

How many of the current Israeli government are from the area originally?

How many are from Europe?

How many Palestinians are allowed to return to Israeli land? How many jews regardless of previous origin are?

How many settlements did the Palestinians create in Israeli occupied lands?

So yeah, no denying that - but that also isn't the winning argument you think it is. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

28 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

How many of the current Israeli government are from the area originally?

How many Palestinians alive today claiming a right to return ever even had a grandparent who lived in Israel before it was created? We can play this game all day.
 

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How many are from Europe?

Why were they in Europe in the first place? They weren't all from Europe.
 

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How many Palestinians are allowed to return to Israeli land? How many jews regardless of previous origin are?

They should be allowed to return to a new state, one that is more prosperous than Gaza and the WB are now combined. 
 

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How many settlements did the Palestinians create in Israeli occupied lands?

 Palestinians should receive all of the settlements in the WB, so not sure what you're trying to argue here. 
 

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So yeah, no denying that - but that also isn't the winning argument you think it is. 

Nor is siding with a group that's only goal is killing everyone on the other side and repeating their talking points. 

[GrimTuesday]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

They are! But so are Jews and yet only the latter are called colonizers. Or accused of wanting an ethnostate. Or of wanting to commit genocide despite that the former are actually being louder about the last two parts. There's no denying this. 

That's because a bunch of European Jews went to Palestine and did some colonialism. You literally have Zionist leaders talking about how they are going there to expel the Palestinian Muslims and civilize the provincial Arab/Mizrahi Jews with their superior european culture. They were even doing shit like the Yemenite Children Affair where there was a program of removing thousands of Mizrahi Jewish children (mostly from Yemen but also from other regions as well) from their parents and placing them with Ashkenazi Jewish families and it is only been acknowledged by the government that maybe something happened in the last few years after it had been covered up for decades, including three government inquiries. This is the same shit we did in the US to indigenous children.

21 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

How many Palestinians alive today claiming a right to return ever even had a grandparent who lived in Israel before it was created? We can play this game all day.

At the very least, it is a significant majority of them. It's laughable to use this considering my Grandparents are older than the state of Israel. When was the last time your family lived in Israel? Most Jews claiming a right to return haven't had direct ancestors living in the land that we know today as Israel in hundreds of years. With the exception of those who immigrated there directly before or in the aftermath of the creation of the state of Israel.

Edited December 27, 2023 by GrimTuesday

[Conflicting Thought]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

They are! But so are Jews and yet only the latter are called colonizers. Or accused of wanting an ethnostate. Or of wanting to commit genocide despite that the former are actually being louder about the last two parts. There's no denying this. 

but you are in favor of ethnostates, no? and you are against genocide, yes? thats good! so why arent you against the genocide being commited against palestinians? or are you going to deny that a genocide or ethnic cleansing is being commited? you are so worried about calls of genocide from some palestinians ( and i think rightfully so, genocide and ethnic cleansing is bad) but i dont see that level of concern or empathy to the actual actions being done by the state of israel that many scholars say is an actual genocide/ethnic cleansing happening right now, all i see from you (and others) is the denial that its even happening or justyfing it as something that has to be done (of course you dont call it genocide or ethnic cleansing,even tho im sure that if it was the palestinians doing what israel is doing you would call it what it is). 

how can someone take you serously when you say that palestinians are louder in calling for genocide when the actual material reallity is the other way around, when we have example after example of rethoric  and more importantly action by the people in power (and not just mayors that nobody knows) calling for genocide.

[Jace, Extat]

8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

But it wasn't just violence, a lot of money went into rebuilding afterwards. To make sure people would not have reason to find fascism/extremism attractive again. Unlike in WW1 and the Treaty of Versailles, which helped create conditions where fascism/extremism was more attractive to the people.

Gaza gets billions in aid every year from the U.N. with Hamas gone and unable to steal all that money the area can be rebuilt. 

6 hours ago, Rippounet said:

There's a fun little game to play here. See:

I don't want to watch allies bomb cities. I don't want to watch anybody do that. But if violence is the game then China is going to win. It's up to the Taiwanese to produce leadership that can start to get a handle on the reactionary parts of the population.

...

 

This is a very well written piece of wrong. 

Hamas attacked first. They decided the terms of the exchange. 

I appreciate your desire for non-violent resolutions to crises but it's just not how the world operates. There is no common ground to find with Hamas, it's a death cult and a jihadist organization. They must be dealt with. 

You use a superb narrative trick with the repetitive reframing of my statement, but the other conditions don't apply. Hamas isn't in those countries, the Ukrainians never attacked Russia first. The Uyghurs didn't produce a terrorist statelet out of U.N. aid and Iranian funding. South Korea and Taiwan do not send marauders into China or North Korea searching for innocents to slaughter. 

My argument is not that weak states or minorities should be bullied by stronger states without recourse. We stand with Ukraine against Russia, even though they're going to lose. Because Russia attacked first. 

Again, I enjoy your argument for a moral and ideal world response to horror and tragedy, but at the end of the day you are more or less arguing that a great power play impotent when confronted by war and terror. That's just not possible, I'm afraid, and while you are entitled to your opinion I think it's wrong. And I don't think that a majority of people would support whatever responsive policies would emerge from your worldview when a real crisis hits. 

 

 

But that's okay, baby 

Like, I'm glad that there are people in the Palestinians' camp. They're going to need that support after the war with donations and volunteers and political support in the west. Rebuilding Gaza, without Hamas and with a responsible government that shares your dedication for peace and moral intercourse will be the work of decades. It's not a small task and deserves big support. 

We disagree here, now, because today is a time of war. But I think you're a good dude. I don't have beef with anybody on this forum because of their opinions and I think it's important to talk about this stuff. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Jace, Extat

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, GrimTuesday said:

That's because a bunch of European Jews went to Palestine and did some colonialism. 

Again, why do you think many felt forced to leave and go to Europe in the first place? Were they asked kindly? Or maybe they were forced out through violence. Just a thought.

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At the very least, it is a significant majority of them. It's laughable to use this considering my Grandparents are older than the state of Israel. When was the last time your family lived in Israel? Most Jews claiming a right to return haven't had direct ancestors living in the land that we know today as Israel in hundreds of years. With the exception of those who immigrated there directly before or in the aftermath of the creation of the state of Israel.

I have family living there right now. Also have family that didn't fair so well during WW2 after they felt like they had no choice but to leave. You're clearly speaking on a subject you don't understand. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

44 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

but you are in favor of ethnostates, no?

I think for small groups it makes sense. A new Palestine under what I proposed would also be an ethnostate and that's okay, much like for example the Kurds should have one. The hope is that it becomes a benevolent one. Israel has failed a lot in that regards, but the conditions are very complicated. 

 

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and you are against genocide, yes? thats good! so why arent you against the genocide being commited against palestinians?

When have I supported it? Find one post. 
 

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or are you going to deny that a genocide or ethnic cleansing is being commited?

This is more complicated. I think these could end up being the result. The rush to use the terms is an overstatement, especially when the side that kicked off this war openly expressed those were their very specific goals, yet most of you seem to forget that. 

 

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but i dont see that level of concern or empathy

Have I not written like damn near a hundred times a lot of what the IDF is doing is wrong and that it's fucked up to cut off food and water to people? Or to like, ya know, make sure what you're bombing is actually the target you need to hit. 

Or was it me saying Netanyahu is a disgusting piece of shit for years prior to this that confused you? 

[TrueMetis]

3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

But you then have to add another wrinkle, the third party was previously thrown out of that same area which was their cultural homeland through violence, so why aren't the people who did so also colonizers? 

... They are. The fuck are you on about? I literally called the British, Ottoman, and Roman's colonizers earlier in the thread, when I said that did you think I was excluding the other empires that invaded the area? Or are you just doing the same mealy mouthed weasel bullshit you've been doing this entire time by leveling made up accusation at people and deliberately reading in as bad faith a possible.

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

They are! But so are Jews and yet only the latter are called colonizers. Or accused of wanting an ethnostate. Or of wanting to commit genocide despite that the former are actually being louder about the last two parts. There's no denying this. 

Accused of wanting an ethnostate? Them wanting an ethnostate is official policy, policy *you* defended and advocated with your "most states are ethnostates" nonsense. Enough of this gaslighting bullshit Tywin.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Enough of this gaslighting bullshit Tywin.

What's gaslighting is acting like only one side wants an ethnostate. Or how Hamas is much louder about wanting to kill Jews, aka genocide, but they're liberators, and even if they're shithead terrorists, who cares what they say despite them being the government in Gaza and are the ones who blew this powder keg open. That's what gaslighting is. 

[Zorral]

Israel-Gaza war: Hamas reports 241 deaths in Gaza inside 24 hours
26th December 2023, 08:08 EST

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67825465

How much book will there be 30,000 by the end of the week?  Half at least, always women and children.  Ay-up, making Israel very safe for now and the future.  Ya think?

Edited December 27, 2023 by Zorral

[fionwe1987]

38 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Or how Hamas is much louder about wanting to kill Jews, aka genocide, 

This is no longer true. Israel is louder, in words and in actions, and in effect, when it comes to killing or displacing Palestinians. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by fionwe1987

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

28 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

This is no longer true. Israel is louder, in words and in actions, and in effect, when it comes to killing or displacing Palestinians. 

Not when Hamas says they want to repeat Oct 7th over and over again and their credo has been identical to the Nazis. What do you think they would do if we flipped the strengths of both sides' militaries? Think they'd even try to warn people in Tel Aviv? We all know the answer to that. 

[GrimTuesday]

43 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Again, why do you think many felt forced to leave and go to Europe in the first place? Were they asked kindly? Or maybe they were forced out through violence. Just a thought.

And when did they go to Europe? The answer is hundreds of years ago in most cases, and no they didn't leave for kicks and giggles, they were violently driven from their land (and it wasn't Palestinians who did it). This changes nothing about the status of the region and the inhumanity of the conditions Israel keeps Palestinians in.

The problem with this idea that the Israelis have a right to return that supersedes the rights of Palestinians to return is that one side was removed hundreds of years ago, well beyond living memory, and the other side was removed 75 years ago. There are people who are still alive today who were forced to flee their family homes by the Israeli army in 1948, a lot of them still have their house keys for fucks sake.

The dispossession of the Jews over a thousand years ago does not give them the right to return in such a manner that it dispossess those who were living there in the modern day. This should also be the case for a Palestinian right to return, where they wouldn't get to dispossess the Israelis who are living there currently.

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I have family living there right now. Also have family that didn't fair so well during WW2 after they felt like they had no choice but to leave. You're clearly speaking on a subject you don't understand. 

Cool for you, I hope they are safe and well, but you're bringing this up to distract from the fact that you said something incredibly silly that was meant to cast doubt on the legitimacy of the Palestinian struggle. My entire point is that most Jews going to Israel have no connection to the country outside of the fact that they are Jewish and they have family who immigrated there either directly before, or after the creation of the state of Israel. The fact that you have family who live there now has no bearing on anything I said.

39 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Have I not written like damn near a hundred times a lot of what the IDF is doing is wrong and that it's fucked up to cut off food and water to people? Or to like, ya know, make sure what you're bombing is actually the target you need to hit. 

Or was it me saying Netanyahu is a disgusting piece of shit for years prior to this that confused you? 

Lets be honest here, you and most of the liberal zionists hate Netanyahu because his policies negatively impact Israeli civil life, Palestinians aren't a consideration except insuring that they are kept in their place and don't cause a ruckus. Nothing about the liberal challengers to Netanyahu does anything for the Palestinians, there is basically no one in Israeli political society who wants to do anything more than manage the conflict just as Netanyahu has done, and that's the ones who aren't actively calling for genocide, they've been given outsized amounts of power because Netanyahu needed them to avoid going to jail.

[Kalbear]

3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

How many Palestinians alive today claiming a right to return ever even had a grandparent who lived in Israel before it was created? We can play this game all day.

Basically every single one. Especially those in Gaza and the west bank.

3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Why were they in Europe in the first place? They weren't all from Europe.
 

I do so love it when you evade the question because you know you've got no leg to stand on.

3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

They should be allowed to return to a new state, one that is more prosperous than Gaza and the WB are now combined. 
 

Why not where they are from originally? After all, your point was that Israel isn't an ethnostate, so surely they should be allowed as refugees and families of refugees of a war to return to their original land, right?

Or...could it be that the two sides actually aren't exactly the same here?

3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Palestinians should receive all of the settlements in the WB, so not sure what you're trying to argue here. 

You said both sides are the same, except one gets criticized for colonizing and the other doesn't. I'm pointing out that that is full of shit and one side is still, actively colonizing - so calling them colonizers is 100% accurate. 

3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Nor is siding with a group that's only goal is killing everyone on the other side and repeating their talking points. 

Who is siding with that group? There are a whole lot of people out there who think Palestinians have gotten a real shitty deal and deserve more - and they aren't terrorists. This again is the thing I'm sad about most - that any time anyone criticizes Israel or gives any kind of pro Palestinian argument you lump them in the blanket side of wanting to wipe out Israel. 

I am pointing out that lots of people and nations have contributed to this, and saying that they are the same or equivalent just ignores truth that you find unpalatable.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Basically every single one. Especially those in Gaza and the west bank.

Show some evidence for that claim. You can't have it both ways, that half of Gaza is under 20 and their grandparents lived and grew up in what's now Israel when the state is 75 years old. Those two numbers don't work. Gaza and the WB? Sure, but all of Israel, no.
 

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I do so love it when you evade the question because you know you've got no leg to stand on.

What leg? Many Jews were forced to flee MENA during a number of purges. 
 

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Why not where they are from originally? After all, your point was that Israel isn't an ethnostate, so surely they should be allowed as refugees and families of refugees of a war to return to their original land, right?

Or...could it be that the two sides actually aren't exactly the same here?

I said it is an ethnostate and Palestinians should have their own with the better territory, ie the WB, with all the settlements given over for free. JFC, do I have to write this in crayon for you? I've only said it numerous times. 
 

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You said both sides are the same, except one gets criticized for colonizing and the other doesn't. I'm pointing out that that is full of shit and one side is still, actively colonizing - so calling them colonizers is 100% accurate. 

And the other is actively calling for a complete colonization. Again this isn't hard. 

 

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Who is siding with that group? There are a whole lot of people out there who think Palestinians have gotten a real shitty deal and deserve more - and they aren't terrorists. This again is the thing I'm sad about most - that any time anyone criticizes Israel or gives any kind of pro Palestinian argument you lump them in the blanket side of wanting to wipe out Israel. 

They have gotten a shitty deal. When have I said otherwise? However, a plurality of them have associated themselves with Hamas and in turn Hamas has fucked up any chance of a two state solution in the near future. This is why I've said they and the PA need new leadership along with Israel doing the same. There's never going to be a perfect deal, but a reasonable one that could lead to peace is possible. 
 

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I am pointing out that lots of people and nations have contributed to this, and saying that they are the same or equivalent just ignores truth that you find unpalatable.

I'm not actually all that ideological and can compromise. The problem here is leaders on both sides of this war and those adjacent are and want total victory. That's why nothing will probably change for decades while so many needlessly suffer. 
 

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Not when Hamas says they want to repeat Oct 7th over and over again and their credo has been identical to the Nazis. What do you think they would do if we flipped the strengths of both sides' militaries? Think they'd even try to warn people in Tel Aviv? We all know the answer to that. 

Yes, even with Hamas saying those things, Israel is more effective in actually killing and displacing Palestinians than Hamas has been in what it wants to do to Israelis.

The point we're trying to make is that the awful rhetoric of Hamas doesn't justify doing unto Palestinians what Hamas wants to do to Israelis. That makes no kind of sense. 

If the situation were flipped in terms of military strength, yes I expect Hamas to be extracting vengeance on Israeli lives at the same scale or worse as what Israel is doing in Gaza today. And in that hypothetical, I would spend my energies condemning Hamas, not implying the Israeli's deserved such losses because some Likud lunatic had rhetoric about settling Gaza and the West Bank and running out all the "human animals".

[Jace, Extat]

You're dancing around Oct. 7th, acting like the Israelis are responding to rhetoric instead of deadly and deliberate attack. 

C'mon, now!

"Wants to do to Israelis."

Come on...

Edited December 27, 2023 by Jace, Extat

[Conflicting Thought]

Just now, Jace, Extat said:

You're dancing around Oct. 7th, acting like the Israelis are responding to rhetoric instead of deadly and deliberate attack. 

C'mon, now!

"Wants to do to Israelis."

Come on...

acting like this whole shitshow started october 7th, like, c'mon now

[fionwe1987]

6 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

You're dancing around Oct. 7th, acting like the Israelis are responding to rhetoric instead of deadly and deliberate attack. 

C'mon, now!

"Wants to do to Israelis."

Come on...

No, I really am not. October 7th was less effective action to carry out Hamas's aims than what Israel has done since. Unless we're under the impression that 16000 is less than 1700. If we're disagreeing about basic math, then please let me know. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

24 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Yes, even with Hamas saying those things, Israel is more effective in actually killing and displacing Palestinians than Hamas has been in what it wants to do to Israelis.

Except Hamas isn't just saying it, they committed the worst terrorist attack Israel ever experienced and then said their goal is to do the same thing over and over again. Until they destroy Israel and kill almost everyone in it. And you would want your government to be chill about such a threat? 

 

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The point we're trying to make is that the awful rhetoric of Hamas doesn't justify doing unto Palestinians what Hamas wants to do to Israelis. That makes no kind of sense. 

 It doesn't. Who has ever argued that here? All I've said is doing nothing was never an option either. 

 

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If the situation were flipped in terms of military strength, yes I expect Hamas to be extracting vengeance

Fuck that. Hamas would destroyed every city they could preemptively, because it's exactly what they've said they'd do. Listen to people when they tell you shit like this. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Tywin et al.