Israel - Hamas war XIV

[mormont]

2 hours ago, Jace, Extat said:

It seems to me that there are only two likely outcomes.

Your best case is that the Israeli government and some coalition of U.N.-led allies participate in a reconstruction of Gaza and support of a responsible government therein. Think Berlin in 1946, with different governments taking responsibility for different projects and management. This is your path towards something that maybe could be long term peace.

The Israeli government has ruled out both outcomes, so I don't believe either is 'likely'.

As for Ty's flight of fancy, as I've said before, it's a 'solution' that nobody involved is contemplating and that doesn't satisfy anyone. Israel doesn't want it, the Palestinians don't want it, the international community don't want it, nobody wants it. Whatever its other merits or demerits, that makes it not a solution. A solution nobody wants isn't a solution!

People can talk about it if they like, but the point of discussing it for pages and pages (as we have done in this thread and other iterations) utterly escapes me. You might as well be discussing the idea of relocating Palestinians to live in a giant balloon.

13 minutes ago, Ran said:

Imagine how much richer and more beautiful Gaza would have been if militant groups didn't funnel untold hundreds of millions of dollars into weapons, terrorism, and underground tunnel networks, and instead spent it on good governance, public works, economic expansion, etc.

The role of successive Israeli governments in creating and maintaining that situation should not be ignored.

[Zorral]

3 minutes ago, mormont said:

The role of successive Israeli governments in creating and maintaining that situation should not be ignored.

Cruelty committed without fear of repercussion or criticism or even notice and comment and judgment is the point.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Zorral

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

24 minutes ago, mormont said:

A solution nobody wants isn't a solution!

The solution both sides want is dominating the other side. Once you reach that point you have to make hard choices.

[Zorral]

Well, they asked for it and deserve it.

The human rights situation in the West Bank has ‘deteriorated rapidly,’ a U.N. report finds.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/12/28/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news/the-human-rights-situation-in-the-west-bank-has-deteriorated-rapidly-a-un-report-finds?

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The United Nations said on Thursday that respect for human rights had “deteriorated rapidly” in the Israeli-occupied West Bank since Oct. 7, calling on Israel to take immediate action to end settler violence and the excessive use of force by its military.

The office of the U.N.’s human rights commissioner said it had documented the deaths of 300 Palestinians, along with mass arrests and ill treatment that it said could amount to torture in the West Bank after the Oct. 7 Hamas-led attacks on Israel.

“The use of military tactics means and weapons in law enforcement contexts, the use of unnecessary or disproportionate force, and the enforcement of broad, arbitrary and discriminatory movement restrictions that affect Palestinians are extremely troubling,” the U.N.’s human rights chief, Volker Türk, said in a statement accompanying a new 22-page report from his office about the situation in the West Bank.

“The intensity of the violence and repression is something that has not been seen in years,” he added.

The report said that the Israeli military was responsible for 291 of the 300 deaths it had verified. Most of the fatalities occurred in clashes and confrontations during Israeli military operations using disproportionate and lethal force, the report said. The Israeli military’s increased use of airstrikes also resulted in civilian casualties, it said. ....

.... Even before Oct. 7, settler violence was hitting its highest levels since the United Nations began keeping records in the mid-2000s. But Palestinians have said that settlers have since become increasingly emboldened, and U.S. officials have expressed concern that the surge in attacks could be a potential trigger for wider violence as Israel wages war in Gaza against Hamas. ....

 

 

[Conflicting Thought]

51 minutes ago, Ran said:

Imagine how much richer and more beautiful Gaza would have been if militant groups didn't funnel untold hundreds of millions of dollars into weapons, terrorism, and underground tunnel networks, and instead spent it on good governance, public works, economic expansion, etc.

A real shame.

Yo, broski, it doesnt work like that, none of it works like that. But i guess now i know where you come from, some ahistorical, revisionist viewpoint.

[Jace, Extat]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

The Israeli government has ruled out both outcomes, so I don't believe either is 'likely'.

Well, shit. Y'know?

The west is in desperate need of dynamic leadership that can actually work diplomacy towards responsible outcomes. The leaders we have now make Chamberlain look like a bulwark of democracy. It's a real fucking problem. But this has to be resolved with U.N. powers putting their money and troops where their mouths are once Hamas is defeated. And Israel has to let them in.

Israel's current government is doomed, new policies can be encouraged with new leadership. Hopefully after the war constructive heads can prevail.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Jace, Extat

[Relic]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

Imagine how much richer and more beautiful Gaza would have been if militant groups didn't funnel untold hundreds of millions of dollars into weapons, terrorism, and underground tunnel networks, and instead spent it on good governance, public works, economic expansion, etc.

A real shame.

Imagine there's no countries, its not hard to do 

nothing to kill or die for, no religion too 

Anyway, yes! Imagine if people were nice to each other! Imagine if self-interest wasnt what dominated geo-politics. Now imagine being stuc in Gaza and getting bombed on for some shit you didnt do. It's not hard to do! A real shame. =( 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Relic

[Kalbear]

7 hours ago, Ran said:

That's your take on it. If the people of Gaza held a referendum and all those who voted yes to settle in the West Bank went, why are they being "deported" or at "gunpoint"?

Just FYI, the trail of tears was by this token also voluntary - it required treaty ratification by the native American nations with the US as well. While it was not done by majority choice with the Cherokee, it was with two other nations. They were given land and money in exchange for relocating. 

And it is absolutely ethnic cleansing. It is often cited as the textbook example.

This is the libertarian ideal - that the choice is made voluntarily because there is no other viable option presented and the threat of force is implied.

 

[Kalbear]

2 hours ago, mormont said:

 

People can talk about it if they like, but the point of discussing it for pages and pages (as we have done in this thread and other iterations) utterly escapes me. You might as well be discussing the idea of relocating Palestinians to live in a giant balloon.

I don't want to speak for others. The reason I keep bringing it up is that it is one of the most odious ideas I've heard floated as a rational solution that explicitly encourages similar ethnic cleansing solutions elsewhere in the world. I bring it up not to debate the solution at all - it is as meaningless and fantastical as imagining all jews going to Mars, or moving Israel to the pacific ocean - but to continue to emphasize that deporting Palestinians from their home is a massive crime against them and humanity and is the primary reason that Palestinians exist as an ethnic group - that forced trauma of Nakba. 

And encouraging another Nakba is reprehensible to me. Especially to the Palestinians. Imagine wanting to relocate native Americans again as a proposed solution for how offensive it is.

I'll stop talking about it because there are more important things to discuss. But that's why.

[Hmmm]

I was discussing with Mudguard about Hamas' sexual violence during the October 7 some threads back, and we disagreed on whether it should be called widespread and systematic or not. Prior reporting in the media was a bit vague regarding the frequency of it, though it is nothing new by now that such things happened. 

This new piece by the New York Times provides more details and some numbers: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html (Very graphic and disturbing reading of course).

To summarize, sexual violence seems to have been very common.

I have a hard time seeing how the Israeli public could be convinced to accept a two state solution at this point. I hope I am wrong, but I believe that Hamas was probably successful in at least that goal of theirs.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Hmmm

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Hmmm said:

 I hope I am wrong, but I believe that Hamas was probably successful in at least that part of their goal. 

A goal that is wholeheartedly shared by Netanyahu and his goons.

As usual the nasty criminal arseholes get what they want while both their peoples suffer. 

[Zorral]

ISRAEL-HAMAS WAR 6:00 A.M.
What Israel Lost Before October 7 The worst year in the country’s history began with Netanyahu’s return to power.
By Noga Tarnopolsky, a freelance journalist based in Jerusalem

One year after Netanahyu’s return to office, half of the nation’s territory — the north and the south — are uninhabitable.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/12/what-israel-lost-before-october-7.html

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.... The war hasn’t helped Netanyahu’s standing. In nearly 100 polls taken since it began, 70 to 80 percent of Israelis say he should resign. On the night of December 27, nearly one year to the day since the formation of his government, 15 out of 18 wounded soldiers at Jerusalem’s Hadassah hospital declined his offer of a visit.

Barak remembers feeling deeply frustrated when Netanyahu won the tight 2022 election, “not because he won or there had been some change from the previous electoral cycles,” he said, “but because of the typical weakness of the left, unable to see the whole picture and failing to join forces.”

One year after Netanahyu’s return to office, half of the nation’s territory — the north and the south — are uninhabitable. Entire communities have been incinerated. One-quarter of the residents of the communal village of Nir Oz were murdered or captured. Every day, soldiers come home in body bags. Air-raid sirens have become commonplace in Tel Aviv, where there has been a run on ceramic-armor vests. Israelis no longer open their doors when someone knocks.

Israel, Barak said, “is weaker than it was one year ago, but Israelis are a defiant species.” But for the country to repair itself, Barak said, Netanyahu has to go: “It is the most urgent step to be taken. We suffered a major blow. We fought. By mid-January, the time will come for him to go.”

Barak is counting on Benny Gantz and Gadi Eisenkot, former army chiefs of staff who joined Netanyahu’s unity war cabinet from the opposition benches, to resign within weeks.

“They will leave the government, and much larger demonstrations even than what we saw against the judicial coup will erupt, with, at their heart, members of the communities that were slaughtered and thousands supporting them,” Barak said, “and they will be joined by reservists back from their service.”

 

 

[Zorral]

Two investigations put renewed scrutiny on Israel’s Gaza offensive
By Ruby Mellen, Itay Stern, Bryan Pietsch and Loay Ayyoub
Updated December 29, 2023 at 10:07 a.m. EST|Published December 29, 2023 at 9:39 a.m. EST

"“Beyond it being a horrifying war crime,” said Ben Natan, “it is 100 percent clear to me that this will not lead us to peace and quiet, but onto the next round, which will be deadlier, to both Israelis and Palestinians alike.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/29/israel-gaza-investigation-hamas-hostage/

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TEL AVIV — The findings of two Israeli investigations into the country’s offensive on Gaza have cast new light on what is being termed one of the century’s most destructive wars, even as Israeli officials maintain there will be no let up in action.

The investigations, announced Thursday, said the shooting by the Israel Defense Forces of three Israeli hostages trying to escape “could have been prevented” and that a December strike on a Gaza refugee camp caused unintentional harm to nearby buildings — as well as potentially those sheltering inside of them.

They address the main points of condemnation of the offensive both internationally and domestically: its catastrophic civilian toll and the government’s failure to do more to protect and secure the release of the remaining hostages in the Gaza Strip. ....

.... Among Israelis, while disapproval of the government over the events of Oct. 7 remains high, so does popular support for the war. But pockets of society have started to call for an end to hostilities. Hundreds gathered Thursday evening in Tel Aviv for a rally calling for a cease-fire.

“I came to protest two main things,” said Oren Ben Natan, one of the attendees. “Firstly, how our government abandoned 108 hostages who are still held by Hamas. And second, the massacre in Gaza.” The 24-year-old held a sign that said “There is no security without a political solution” while onlookers across the street shouted curses at the demonstrators.

“Beyond it being a horrifying war crime,” said Ben Natan, “it is 100 percent clear to me that this will not lead us to peace and quiet, but onto the next round, which will be deadlier, to both Israelis and Palestinians alike.”

 

 

[Zorral]

Was wondering about this.

Israel’s ultra-Orthodox, exempt from military service, now enlisting
By Ruby Mellen, Itay Stern and Heidi Levine
December 28, 2023 at 3:20 p.m. EST

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/28/ultra-orthodox-israel-defense-forces/

Quote

 

.... Their exemption from mandatory conscription has long been a point of contention in a country where military service is an integral part of the national identity. It led to the downfall of the government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in 2019, the start of a four-year election crisis.

The Haredim have adamantly opposed being made to serve, on the grounds that they should be spending all available time studying the Torah. They worry that young Haredim sent to the army may never return to their religious duties.

Their size and clout have led Israeli leaders to cater to their demands. They’ve also been excused from observing national education standards and paying some taxes.

The rush now to enlist, while still taboo among some Haredim, is showing how the Hamas attack and Israel’s war, in which its forces have killed 21,320 and injured 55,603 people in Gaza, are reshaping, even drawing together, disparate segments of this divided country, including along some of its deepest fault lines.

“We have the Haredi community legitimizing the army, the Haredi community lowering their stigma to boys that are enlisting,” said Nechumi Yaffe, a lecturer in the School of Social and Policy Studies at Tel Aviv University. “We have the Haredi community saying yes, it is very important to have an army and I would be more willing to draft myself.”

 

 

[Zorral]

Today, in the tournament of winning hearts and minds and sympathies of the world:

It’s not just bullets and bombs. I have never seen health organisations as worried as they are about disease in Gaza
Devi Sridhar Dec. 29 Prof Devi Sridhar is chair of global public health at the University of Edinburgh

A quarter of its population could die within a year due to outbreaks of disease caused by this unprecedented conflict.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/29/health-organisations-disease-gaza-population-outbreaks-conflict

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The Israel-Gaza war has set several world records. It’s the deadliest conflict for journalists in 30 years. It has caused the largest single loss of life for United Nations staff in the history of the organisation. It is set to have the worst ever total number of attacks on healthcare facilities and their personnel, and has devastated schools, with 51% of education facilities damaged. International rules such as the Geneva conventions have not been respected: hospitals and ambulances have been targeted, medical relief organisations such as Doctors Without Borders (MSF) and Save the Children are under attack, and have lost staff members.

The Israel-Gaza war is also deadly for children, reportedly the deadliest conflict for children in recent times: roughly 160 children were being killed a day last month according to the World Health Organization. Compare this with three a day in the recent conflict in Syria, two a day in Afghanistan, and 0.7 a day in Ukraine. The total number of children killed is already more than 5,300 says Unicef, the United Nations Children’s Fund. They didn’t choose to be born there, and are innocent, but are bearing the brunt of these attacks.

Tragically, the nearly unprecedented death and injury we have seen so far is likely to only be the beginning. From looking at similar conflicts across the world, public health experts know that we are likely to see more children dying from preventable disease than from bullets and bombs. While the Israeli government has spoken about safe zones for families to flee to, these aren’t anywhere near what we would consider safe public health zones. They don’t have clean water, functional sanitation and toilets, enough food, or trained medical staff with medicine and equipment. These are the basic needs that any human, especially babies and children, need to stay healthy and alive.

The WHO spokesperson Dr Margaret Harris has said that diarrhoea rates among children in refugee-like camps (sheltered housing) in Gaza were, in early November, already more than 100 times normal levels, and with no treatments available, children can become dehydrated and die quickly. Diarrhoeal diseases are the second leading cause of death in children under five worldwide, and they are caused by contaminated water sources and lack of access to oral rehydration fluids. Upper respiratory infections, chickenpox, and painful skin conditions have also increased, and there are fears that the recent floods may result in untreated sewage mixing with fresh water used for drinking and cooking, and cause a cholera outbreak. ....

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Like Tal Mitnick, I refused to serve Israel as a soldier. It’s important to understand why
Etan Nechin Dec. 29

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/29/tal-mitnick-israel-soldier-military-service-society

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.... Yet even with the ubiquity of the military, an undercurrent of dissent exists. Like Mitnick, I also refused IDF enlistment. Examples of refusals are rare but have happened throughout Israel’s history. There are the 3,000 reserve soldiers who protested against the first Lebanon war in 1983, of whom 160 were jailed for their refusal to serve. And also figures like Knesset member Ofer Cassif, who objected to serving in the West Bank, as well as pilots rejecting missions they considered illegal, and a handful of teenagers annually facing jail for opposing service in the occupied territories, with groups like Mesarvot supporting their journey.

Unlike a majority of conscientious objectors who make up a slender slice of Israel’s populace and often hail from its upper tiers, I came from a small village at Israel’s periphery and went to school on a kibbutz where the ethos of service and sacrifice was strongly felt. Expressing hesitation about the militaristic culture and already deemed problematic by my school, I was tagged during my army processing to be sent to an assessment board.

Opting out of service isn’t straightforward. Refusal is rare partly because the army leaves little room for dissent. The Israeli high court of justice has ruled that while absolute pacifism is a valid reason for exemption, “selective refusal” – rejecting specific duties – is illegal. This stance, especially the refusal to serve in the occupied territories, is seen as a threat to national unity. Those few exempted on grounds of pacifism are also restricted from discussing the occupation or Israel’s politics more widely.

The IDF’s handling of refusers is also not consistent. Some face trials and multiple imprisonments before being discharged by a military psychiatric board. Others, like myself, are sent directly to this board. There, I had to articulate my beliefs to a tribunal of officers, which at 17 were more intuitive than clearly defined. The main method the army uses to release refusers is by declaring them mentally unfit for service, implying that in Israel dissent is equated with insanity. ....

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/dec/29/israel-gaza-war-live-updates-hamas-egypt-delegation-ceasefire-cairo?

UN humanitarian chief 'strongly condemns' attack on aid convoy
The UN’s top aid official has issued a strong condemnation after reports that Israeli troops opened fire on an aid convoy in the Gaza Strip on Thursday.

Quote

As we reported earlier, the head of the UN agency for Palestinian refugees (UNRWA) affairs in Gaza said Israeli soldiers fired at an aid convoy as it returned from northern Gaza along a route designated safe by the Israeli military.

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Palestine foreign ministry 'welcomes' South Africa's launch of genocide case against Israel at ICJ
Palestine’s foreign ministry has welcomed South Africa’s decision to launch a case at the International Court of Justice in which it accused Israel of “genocidal” acts in Gaza.

 

[Darryk]

My sister-in-law's brother-in-law (Moroccan Jew) went to Israel a week ago to visit his daughter who's just joined the Israeli navy and he says the country's in a worse state than he's ever seen it. The general sentiment among Israelis is:

• The current government needs to go
• The hostages need to be brought back at ANY cost
• Peace is no longer an option

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Darryk said:

My sister-in-law's brother-in-law (Moroccan Jew) went to Israel a week ago to visit his daughter who's just joined the Israeli navy and he says the country's in a worse state than he's ever seen it. The general sentiment among Israelis is:

• The current government needs to go
• The hostages need to be brought back at ANY cost

I can understand, even though I'll never truly know how the families of the hostages must feel.

 

1 hour ago, Darryk said:

• Peace is no longer an option

Saying "peace is no longer an option" is itself making an option, an option to continue to live like this, an option to keep the bloodshed going. I can understand making that option initially, because you're angry and hurting, but I do hope this changes in time, or both Israelis and Palestinians are doomed to more suffering and pain. 

[Darryk]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Saying "peace is no longer an option" is itself making an option, an option to continue to live like this, an option to keep the bloodshed going. I can understand making that option initially, because you're angry and hurting, but I do hope this changes in time, or both Israelis and Palestinians are doomed to more suffering and pain. 

I'm sure it will change over time as the heat of pain and rage gradually wears off.

[Jace, Extat]

21 hours ago, Darryk said:

I'm sure it will change over time as the heat of pain and rage gradually wears off.

If there can be peace between Tyrael and Kalestine then anything is possible. 

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Jace, Extat

[Larry of the Lawn]

21 hours ago, Darryk said:

I'm sure it will change over time as the heat of pain and rage gradually wears off.

Do you think all the civilian deaths happening in the meantime will generate any pain or rage?