Israel - Hamas war XIV

[GrimTuesday]

30 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

So were the Jews by force, so end this canard. And keep in mind, when Israel was created, it was the Jewish side that reluctantly accepted a path to two states. The Palestinian side said fuck no.

Man, you really keep leaving out that for the most part, the Israelis came from outside of Palestine and at the outset, it was objectively a colonial project that became increasingly violent when the native population rejected it. The idea that the Palestinians should have accepted the partitioning of their land to be given to European Jews is such an absurd proposition.

Acknowledging the Nakba is not a canard, a canard is something that is unfounded, the dispossession of Palestinians at the hands of the Israelis is a historical fact.

Edited January 4 by GrimTuesday

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

6 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

They want the Iron Dome so they can be independent in the actions they want to take.  

I understand the reason and "need" for it. It though addressing a symptom of an underling disease and that is the continual occupation. That the defense is done so they do not need to address the occupation.

The actions Israel taken are not to end their occupation, it is to avoid and minimize the consequences of its continuation.

The Iron Dome is to prevent thousands of rockets constantly fired from destroying entire cities 

5 minutes ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

You know what's canard? Making an appeal to a forced expulsions of jews from Judea in the 1st century CE 

Stopped reading after this. Just look up the 1920s. 

Edited January 4 by Tywin et al.

[Zorral]

7 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Now imagine waves of suicide bombings ordered by the Mexican government with them openly saying they want to destroy the US

But a counterfactual that did not not happen, like the person here who tried to drag African Americans fantasizing doing something they did not do,

You are scaping the bottom in desperation.

Edited January 4 by Zorral

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 minute ago, Zorral said:

But a counterfactual that did not not happen, like the person here who tried to drag African Americans fantasizing doing something they did not do,

You are scaping the bottom in desperation.

It did happen in Israel though. Fuck it's amazing how little so many of you know about this. 

[Zorral]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

it's amazing how little so many of you know about this. 

We do know.  Why do you think it happened?

[GrimTuesday]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

It did happen in Israel though. Fuck it's amazing how little so many of you know about this. 

You keep bringing this up, but do you know why it happened, without just saying that it is because they hate Jews and want to see them all dead?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 minute ago, Zorral said:

We do know.  Why do you think it happened?

Because the leaders on the other side said death to all Jews and they said it before Israel was created, when it was created and ever since. But that gets a pass. 

Edited January 4 by Tywin et al.

[Zorral]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

Because the leaders on the other side death to all Jews and they said before Israel was created, when it was created and ever since. But that gets a pass. 

I knew this would be your response.  

https://www.heyalma.com/israel-guide/history-of-israel-palestine-before-1948/

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

7 minutes ago, Zorral said:

I knew this would be your response.  

https://www.heyalma.com/israel-guide/history-of-israel-palestine-before-1948/

 

Right, and read that better. Just look for the word "attack." 

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

They were still bad when it was my turn to go back for the summer in the mid 2000's, hence why I didn't. So ask yourself, why did they need something like the Iron Dome? It wasn't safe.

It was however far safer. Which is why the idea that Israelis got more extreme when facing fewer terrorist actions is weird as hell.

The mid 2000s was also about 17 years ago ‐ 7 years after that Israelis were thinking much more about a 2 state solution. To me the main differences are Israel being very unhappy with the US deal with Iran (2014), followed by Trump giving Israel whatever it wanted and completely fucking over Palestinians (2017-2021) and then Netanyahu going even more right wing (2021-2023). During this period attacks from Palestinians went lower and lower, to the point where Israeli government believed that hamas had largely given up due to futility.

Edited January 4 by Kalbear

[TrueMetis]

The Mexico example is interesting because it forgets for this analogy to be equivalent the US would also have to be literally invading Mexico and setting up new towns for Americans to live in. But uh, if you do that than the situation kind of changes doesn't it? Especially when you remember how many of those border states used to be part of Mexico. IDK not sure this analogy was very well thought through. Like legitimately in this situation I can't imagine the majority of the world not condemning the US and taking far more concrete action against it than what has happened to Israel.

Kind of like that whole "Oh but they were willing to take *the desert*" thing and I'm sure the indigenous nomads of the area who's way of life was completely disrupted in favour of a more western style of living were just in awe of the generosity. Really hard to shrug off those accusation of colonialism when the mindset is clearly still "we took what was underdeveloped by our standards and developed it according to our standards and therefore it's ours."

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

It was however far safer. Which is why the idea that Israelis got more extreme when facing fewer terrorist actions weird as he'll.

The mid 2000s was also about 17 years ago ‐ 7 years after that Israelis were thinking much more about a 2 state solution. To me the main differences are Israel being very unhappy with the US deal with Iran (2014), followed by Trump giving Israel whatever it wanted and completely fucking over Palestinians (2017-2021) and then Netanyahu going even more right wing (2021-2023). During this period attacks from Palestinians went lower and lower, to the point where Israeli government believed that hamas had largely given up due to futility.

Notably on the flip side even before October 7 2023 was an highly deadly year to be a Palestinian.

 

[Zorral]

27 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Right, and read that better. Just look for the word "attack." 

Look for some other words too, that you didn't copy.  I gave you opportunities here to see what has been going on for over a century, for pete's sake. You are ... desperately in denial.

Denial is how are lost hearts, minds and wars.

Also, you know, overlooking the facts that ethnic cleansing is so far the only solution that Israel's ruling, CORRUPT elite can come up with, takes the loss even further.  You have noticed of course, that both 'crimes against humanity' and 'ethnic cleansing' are coming up more and more frequently even in the words of Biden's administration the main stream media all around the world.  The tragedy is that the US (well tRumps all for this chaos of evil and carnage, as are Orban and Putin and even probably Iran) never said boo to Israel's tactics and treatment of Palestinians all these years.  Until now.

Edited January 4 by Zorral

[TheKitttenGuard]

49 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The Iron Dome is to prevent thousands of rockets constantly fired from destroying entire cities 

The Rocket fire are from areas that are under an occupation. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

20 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

It was however far safer. Which is why the idea that Israelis got more extreme when facing fewer terrorist actions is weird as hell.

Not really. It just depends if you want to include the entire 21st century or the periods in which things didn't happen. But to the latter point more and more threats were made which sadly pushed Israelis to the right which then led them to enact policies which just enflamed things more. 

Quote

To me the main differences are Israel being very unhappy with the US deal with Iran (2014), followed by Trump giving Israel whatever it wanted and completely fucking over Palestinians (2017-2021) and then Netanyahu going even more right wing (2021-2023). During this period attacks from Palestinians went lower and lower, to the point where Israeli government believed that hamas had largely given up due to futility.

All fair points. 

[Zorral]

During this period attacks from Palestinians went lower and lower, to the point where Israeli government believed that hamas had largely given up due to futility.

And in this time the Israeli extremists pushing into the West Bank, the treatment of Palestinians everywhere, whether Gaza or Jerusalem, got worse and and worse and worse.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

7 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Look for some other words too, that you didn't copy.  I gave you opportunities here to see what has been going on for over a century, for pete's sake. You are ... desperately in denial.

Denial is how are lost hearts, minds and wars.

Denial is overlooking how basically every time attack was used in your article was one side attacking the other, mostly over rumors. 

Read what you link.

4 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

The Rocket fire are from areas that are under an occupation. 

Is all of Israel occupied in your mind? 

[Clueless Northman]

51 minutes ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

You know what's canard? Making an appeal to a forced expulsions of jews from Judea in the 1st century CE during the reign of Emperor Titus.

Nope, that actually came a bit later. The First Jewish Revolt failed and ended with a sizable part of the Jewish population dead, but the rest wasn't expelled. The massive expulsions came after the Second Revolt, which ended up with possibly just as many dead. There's a reason why most peoples only revolted once against Rome: the Empire was so ruthless and the devastation and deaths were so big that conquered peoples tended to stay put for a very long time. Judaea being one of the very fre exceptions.

Heck, I was surprised to see that the National Museum in Jerusalem pretty much stated that, if the First Revolt was perfectly understandable and legitimate, the Bar Koshba Revolt was suicidal and a major mistake, and shouldn't have been attempted - the Jewish people should've known they would fail with disastrous consequences. It was also funny to see their take on the Maccabean Revolt, which they considered as pushed by extremist backwards ideologues against the more progressive and open-minded mainstream and majority hellenized Jews. Though of course that was what was written in the English notices; we weren't with our Israeli old friend, so I should ask him one day if the Hebrew notice say the same

[TheKitttenGuard]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Is all of Israel occupied in your mind? 

The occupation is primarily the West Bank. Though, IMO, the Gaza disengagement from 2003-05 was more putting Gaza into a twilight "Gitmo" legal situation were Israel did maintain a lot of controls on Gaza without responsibilities.

Quote

Not really. It just depends if you want to include the entire 21st century or the periods in which things didn't happen. But to the latter point more and more threats were made which sadly pushed Israelis to the right which then led them to enact policies which just enflamed things more. 

Israel is a Nuclear Nation

Israel has one of the most advance militaries in the area.

At the some point, you are responsible for the fear you have if you put up and have all these protections.

So much of Israel and Allies under that the Palestinians or Arabs think Israel is weak and we will show them you not. I think the Palestinians and Arabs have know for a very long time what Israel is capable and it is not the deterrence you want and anything to establish is just to be more brutal and it is just a more grim and horrible future, and yes I think  Israelis made those decisions and was not forced to make them.

[Kalbear]

55 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Not really. It just depends if you want to include the entire 21st century or the periods in which things didn't happen. But to the latter point more and more threats were made which sadly pushed Israelis to the right which then led them to enact policies which just enflamed things more. 

Yeah, this is bullshit. Track how many Israeli deaths there were from 2000 to 2006 (when they occupied and settled Gaza directly, along with the second intifadah) to 2007 on (where hamas was in control of Gaza). Track how many actual terrorist actions happened in those periods. Heck, even threats made were down - which was a ploy by hamas to lull Israel - so even that point is wrong. 

The idea that threats caused Israel to go more right wing but actual bombings in cafes didn't is just a ridiculous idea. It's far more likely that Israel went more right wing because the rest of the world has done so, combined with Netanyahu being both more desperate for any support and israel getting everything they want from the US and the international community. 

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

25 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

The occupation is primarily the West Bank. Though, IMO, the Gaza disengagement from 2003-05 was more putting Gaza into a twilight "Gitmo" legal situation were Israel did maintain a lot of controls on Gaza without responsibilities.

Israel still controls a lot of Gaza when it comes to utilities. So does Egypt, albeit to a lesser extent. Hamas controls the area, has plenty of supplies with multiple wealthy states giving them money and shares next to nothing with the people there and won't make peace with Israel. Just imagine what they could have done to help their own people with the money spent creating the tunnels. 

Quote

Israel has one of the most advance militaries in the area.

At the some point, you are responsible for the fear you have if you put up and have all these protections.

Why do you think they need said protections in the first place?