Israel - Hamas war XIV

[Kalbear]

Also, on polling: while Gantz is ahead and Netanyahu is behind, the largest plurality is 'I don't know' and the difference between the two is only 8%. That goes down to only 7% if only Jews are asked. 

https://en.idi.org.il/articles/52085

In any case I'd echo what was said before - the assumption that Netanyahu will be gone or that he will be replaced by someone more willing to favor a two-state solution is at best presumptive thinking. 

[DireWolfSpirit]

On 1/4/2024 at 12:44 PM, maarsen said:

Not really a surprise as IS is a Sunni Muslim group who consider the Shia majority in Iran to be apostates.  Iran is not an Arab state either but are Persians.

I said I was surprised, I wasnt extending it to others reaction because I'd be guessing at who they thought was responsible.

Im also aware Iranians are Persian not Arab but mentioned they have had previous attacks by Arab Separatists according to the Reuters reporting my post was taken from.

"Tehran often accuses its arch enemies, Israel and the United States, of backing anti-Iran militant groups that have carried out attacks in the past. Baluchi militants and ethnic Arab separatists have also staged attacks in Iran."

The Reuters report laid this most recent attack at ISIS-K's feet and calls their branching out of Afghanistan as a concerning spread in its operations.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/iran-vows-revenge-after-biggest-attack-since-1979-revolution-2024-01-04/

[kissdbyfire]

Collective punishment, just like ethnic cleansing, is being pushed by government officials & members of the Knesset from the very start. This mp sounds like a psycho, and her Twitter feed is scary. Scarier still that her views are probably the views of the vast majority of the members of parliament  and that it's unlikely that she is the scarier one out there.

And the translation:

 

 

[Zorral]

We need a scary emoji.

[DanteGabriel]

15 minutes ago, Zorral said:

We need a scary emoji.

We also need an emoji for "surely that person is just an extremist crank representing no one whose statements have no actual governmental support" -- would save a lot of verbiage in these threads.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

16 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

We also need an emoji for "surely that person is just an extremist crank representing no one whose statements have no actual governmental support" -- would save a lot of verbiage in these threads.

She literally called for nuking Gaza. She's an idiot. 

Also, I keep saying it here, Hebrew doesn't always translate that well, especially when it's the kind used in Israel. It's a really weird language. Most Jews in the US and Europe barely understand it. I sure as shit don't despite studying it for nearly a decade. 

[DireWolfSpirit]

13 hours ago, Zorral said:

Several of the outposts and roads are on privately owned Palestinian land, the report said, in violation of Israeli law. ....

Land theft any way you look at.

These assholes should be taken into custody and dumped off right into the middle of the worst Gazan warzone and made to stay there for as long as the missiles are falling.

 

[Conflicting Thought]

3 hours ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

She literally called for nuking Gaza. She's an idiot. 

Also, I keep saying it here, Hebrew doesn't always translate that well, especially when it's the kind used in Israel. It's a really weird language. Most Jews in the US and Europe barely understand it. I sure as shit don't despite studying it for nearly a decade. 

doesnt change the fact that people in very powerfull positions within the israeli govement are saying this things and acting on them, like you could say that about all of them, stop downplaying what is being said, they are actually doing very horrible destructive shit.

so what is she saying then? is it so badly translated that the real meaning is lost on us, she isnt actually saying what she is saying? this is next level apologia

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

27 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

doesnt change the fact that people in very powerfull positions within the israeli govement are saying this things and acting on them, like you could say that about all of them, stop downplaying what is being said, they are actually doing very horrible destructive shit.

They are doing horribly destructive shit. No one is arguing that's not true. Just, ya know, maybe don't cite the most crazy people with the suggestion this represents everyone. Again, this dumbass wants to nuke a piece of land right next to her's. It's totally insane, 
 

Quote

so what is she saying then? is it so badly translated that the real meaning is lost on us, she isnt actually saying what she is saying? this is next level apologia

Nah, just that Hebrew doesn't really work that well with Google translate and even worse when you remove the accent marks. 

[Craving Peaches]

https://theintercept.com/2024/01/04/cnn-israel-gaza-idf-reporting/

Quote

The CNN staff member described how the policy works in practice. “‘War-crime’ and ‘genocide’ are taboo words,” the person said. “Israeli bombings in Gaza will be reported as ‘blasts’ attributed to nobody, until the Israeli military weighs in to either accept or deny responsibility. Quotes and information provided by Israeli army and government officials tend to be approved quickly, while those from Palestinians tend to be heavily scrutinized and slowly processed.”

 

[Zorral]

Israeli calls for Gaza’s ethnic cleansing are only getting louder
Analysis by Ishaan Tharoor
Columnist
January 5, 2024 at 12:00 a.m. EST

"Meanwhile, a group of prominent Israelis, including former lawmakers, top scientists and intellectuals, wrote a joint letter Wednesday condemning Israel’s judicial authorities for not reining in the genocidal rhetoric widely on show. “For the first time that we can remember, the explicit calls to commit atrocious crimes, as stated, against millions of civilians have turned into a legitimate and regular part of Israeli discourse,” they wrote. “Today, calls of these types are an everyday matter in Israel."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/01/05/wv-israel-hamas/

Quote

 

... More than 20,000 people have been killed in the Gaza Strip due to Israeli bombardments and the ongoing offensive. A sprawling humanitarian crisis has seen close to 90 percent of Gazans displaced and the majority of the embattled territory’s more than 2 million population teetering on the brink of famine.

“I’ve been to all kinds of conflicts and all kinds of crises,” Arif Husain, chief economist for the U.N.’s World Food Program, told the New Yorker this week. “In my life, I’ve never seen anything like this in terms of severity, in terms of scale, and then in terms of speed.” ....

.... Members of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s right-wing coalition have called for the dropping of a nuclear bomb on densely-populated Gaza, the total annihilation of the territory as a mark of retribution, and the immiseration of its people to the point that they have no choice but to abandon their homeland.

This week alone, a parliamentarian from Netanyahu’s Likud party went on television and said it was clear to most Israelis that “all the Gazans need to be destroyed.” Then, Israel’s ambassador in Britain told local radio that there was no other solution for her country than to level “every school, every mosque, every second house” in Gaza to degrade Hamas’s military infrastructure. ....

 

 

[Zorral]

Netanyahu has turned Gaza into hell
The current prime minister expressed his radical positions against the Palestinians from the moment he came to power

 “Why should we complain of this fierce hatred of us? For eight years they have been living in the refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we have turned the land and villages in which they and their ancestors have lived into our home.”

https://elpais.com/opinion/2024-01-05/netanyahu-ha-convertido-gaza-en-el-infierno.html

Quote

 

In April 1956, Moshe Dayan, one of the toughest commanders in the Israel Defense Forces, to which he had just been appointed chief of staff, had to say a prayer at the funeral of a young farmer who had been murdered. by some Arabs during the raid they were carrying out on the Nahal-Oz kibbutz. “Let's not make accusations against them today,” Dayan said. “Why should we complain of this fierce hatred of us? For eight years they have been living in the refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we have turned the land and villages in which they and their ancestors have lived into our home.” If they were to ask for some responsibility for that death, Dayan thought they had to demand it from themselves, from the Israelis. “Let us not be afraid to see the hatred that accompanies and consumes the lives of hundreds of thousands of Arabs who around us wait for the moment when their hands can be stained with our blood,” added that soldier, who was easily recognized by his patch. that was in one eye. “This is the destiny of our generation. The only choice we have is to be prepared and armed, to be strong and resolute or else the sword will slip from our hands and the threat to our lives will worsen.”

“We are a generation of settlers, and without the steel helmet and the cannon, we would not be able to plant a tree or build a house…” Dayan also said on that occasion. The episode is recorded by Avi Shlaim, a historian born in Baghdad in 1945 into a wealthy Jewish family and who is today one of the greatest specialists in the Middle East, in his monumental The Iron Wall (Almed), one of the best books to understand the relationship between Israel and the Arab world. ....

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Israel-Gaza war: The huge challenges facing Israel's 'day after' plan
6th January 2024, 07:37 EST

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67891893

Quote

 

.... But the plan envisages a major role for foreign players - the US, plus European and Arab governments - in the creation of a "multinational task force" with responsibility for what's euphemistically called "the rehabilitation of the Gaza Strip".

In other words, those countries will be expected to put the whole shattered area back together. And pay for it.

For countries, the EU and Gulf States in particular, which have seen their previous investments - hospitals, schools and universities - blown to smithereens over the past three months, it is hardly a tempting prospect.

Even assuming Israel succeeds in its goal of eliminating Hamas as a threat, who is to say violence won't erupt in the future, triggering yet another round of costly destruction? ....

.... "The entity controlling the territory," it says, "will build on the capabilities of the existing administrative mechanism (civil committees) in Gaza - local non-hostile actors."
According to media reports, all appointments to local committees would have to be approved by Israel ... "Israel cannot conceive of an idea where Palestinians have political agency," says Amjad Iraqi, senior editor at the independent Israeli +972 Magazine. ....

 

 

[kissdbyfire]

13 hours ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Just, ya know, maybe don't cite the most crazy people with the suggestion this represents everyone.

The problem is that most everyone saying anything is saying things very much aligned w/ what this woman said. The previous time you complained that the person saying vile stuff was the former mayor of a tiny village and therefore of no consequence, so why quote them? Well, this woman is currently a member of parliament, and she’s of no consequence b/c… she’s “crazy”? It feels like any quotes of Israelis using hateful rhetoric will be met with similar arguments, “oh don’t quote this person b/c X”, when the reality seems to be that a vast majority of politicians have the exact same views and opinions - we only have to remember all the government officials and their horrific statements. 
Another example is the Israeli ambassador to the UK, who got into it again. And when people started calling her out, one of the defences presented was “she doesn't represent Israel”, which is kind of hilariously outrageous since that’s basically the job description for an ambassador.

 

[Zorral]

Marvelous example of a politician saying what they want, not answering questions.

My goodness how the tunnels have grown and grown like Topsy, from being smugglers' tunnels between Gaza and Egypt.  Now they are a golem city riddling all of Gaza's underground.

Edited January 6 by Zorral

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

14 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

The problem is that most everyone saying anything is saying things very much aligned w/ what this woman said. The previous time you complained that the person saying vile stuff was the former mayor of a tiny village and therefore of no consequence, so why quote them? Well, this woman is currently a member of parliament, and she’s of no consequence b/c… she’s “crazy”? It feels like any quotes of Israelis using hateful rhetoric will be met with similar arguments, “oh don’t quote this person b/c X”, when the reality seems to be that a vast majority of politicians have the exact same views and opinions - we only have to remember all the government officials and their horrific statements. 
Another example is the Israeli ambassador to the UK, who got into it again. And when people started calling her out, one of the defences presented was “she doesn't represent Israel”, which is kind of hilariously outrageous since that’s basically the job description for an ambassador.

 

When a politician calls for nuking another country, they're being bombastic. It's again like taking the Mayor of Miami seriously when he called for the nuking of Havana. 

As to the clip, I only watched the first part, but she is right in that Hamas has to be destroyed. The problem is there's no good way to do that.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

11 minutes ago, Zorral said:

My goodness how the tunnels have grown and grown like Topsy, from being smugglers' tunnels between Gaza and Egypt.  Now they are a golem city riddling all of Gaza's underground.

Have you seen the videos of cars driving through them? I always just assumed they were more like what you'd see during the US-Vietnam war. 

ETA: I should say some of them, but they are way more advanced than a lot of us knew.

Edited January 6 by Mr. Chatywin et al.

[Zorral]

Famine in Gaza ‘around the corner,’ as people face ‘highest levels of food insecurity ever recorded,’ UN relief chief says
By Heather Chen and Eve Brennan, CNN

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/05/middleeast/gaza-famine-un-warning-intl-hnk/index.html

“Gaza has simply become uninhabitable. Its people are witnessing daily threats to their very existence – while the world watches on,” Griffiths said in the statement issued by the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA).

[kissdbyfire]

18 hours ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

When a politician calls for nuking another country, they're being bombastic. It's again like taking the Mayor of Miami seriously when he called for the nuking of Havana. 
 

Sure, but that is totally besides the point I was making. The point is, we always get complaints whenever we post something where an Israeli official or politician says something bombastic or spews hateful rhetoric, and the complaints are invariably based on the person not being important enough, or just a random lunatic, or of no consequence, and variations of these. And the problem is that everyone who is talking is saying the same type of thing. So one can’t simply dismiss everything b/c “crazy” or “inconsequential”, or whatever b/c these opinions are very clearly held by a vast majority of politicians and government officials. 

18 hours ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

As to the clip, I only watched the first part, but she is right in that Hamas has to be destroyed. The problem is there's no good way to do that.

Well, the problem here is that “Hamas has to be destroyed” can be used to justify any number of atrocities w/ the added bonus of so many experts having said this goal can’t be achieved militarily. So while I agree that Hamas has to be destroyed, I worry that the way Israel is going about it will not be effective b/c even if they do destroy Hamas, which I very much doubt, it will also create the next terrorist organisation - one that could be worse than Hamas. Another concerning factor is that I doubt Netanyahu & co don’t know this. They know and they don’t care, b/c the constant conflicts is exactly what they want, since it gives them the justification to do all the things they’re doing like collective punishment and ethnic cleansing, b/c it will lead to their ultimate goal: Greater Israel w/ no Palestinian state and hopefully no Palestinian people. 

Edited January 7 by kissdbyfire

[Zorral]

There is no one anywhere at any level of government, agency or just private citizens who believe Israel can rid Gaza of Hamas as they are going about it.  More and more it is clear to more and more people that Israel's objective is to literally turn Gaza into an uninhabitable rubble while killing off as many Palestinians as possible by every means possible from starvation and disease to out-out-bombing and shooting.

Go through the reports of publications around the world, and this is what is being said.

It is also being said that this will NOT make Israel safer.  On the contrary.  The jerks running this show and their supporters must know this too.

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, Zorral said:

It is also being said that this will NOT make Israel safer.  On the contrary.  The jerks running this show and their supporters must know this too.

Of course they know it. But hey, endless conflicts help Netanyahu & his goons, and Blinken thinks all the wars are a cash cow, a win-win, so it’s a match made in the 9th circle of hell.