Israel - Hamas war XIV

[Heartofice]

2 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

And what, prey tell would you cite as other elements?

A historic aversion to the very existence of Israel for one plus the continued radicalisation within the education system of palestinians. 

[Ran]

12 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Gaza is significantly reliant on Israel in many ways

Hardly the only autonomous territory that depends on much from its neighbors. Andorra imports 96% of its energy from Spain and France, something like 60% of its food, etc. If they shut their borders and cut everything off, Andorra would be in a situation not unlike Gaza.

This doesn't mean Andorra isn't a sovereign state, however. So dependence on neighbors is not itself a barrier to sovereignty, or potential soverignty.

[Jace, Extat]

35 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

I'm not excusing terror at all. My position is, no matter what the other side did, you do not descend into their level and dish out group punishment, civilian harm, or ethnic cleansing. I just don't throw that judgement selectively, and hold both Israel and Hamas accountable to the same standard. Hamas fails. But so does Israel.

If so, then at least Israel failed as the last possible option. They didn't want to invade Gaza, they don't want to occupy it. Hamas does want to kill Jews as a matter of course.

 

37 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

 

The "logical conclusion" here is violation of internation humanitarian law, ethnic cleansing, terrorism, rape and murder, dude. WTF?

 

The logical conclusion is that Hamas cannot remain empowered. Everything else is secondary to that goal, including international law. Because international law doesn't further the safety of a state's citizens. 

46 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

 

What's the difference? I don't see one in your framework.

You don't see a difference between Putin's Russia invading Ukraine and Israel defending itself from Hamas? 

Fascinating.

[Mudguard]

1 hour ago, Jace, Extat said:

Israel pulled out of Gaza, held to a ceasefire for over a decade, and for their trouble their people were butchered and carried away. You're citing things half-a-century gone to excuse terror.

Any ceasefire Israel had with Hamas had long ended before Oct. 7th.  Hamas has been launching hundreds, if not thousands, of rockets at Israel for at least the past 5 years, and Israel has been killing hundreds of Palestinians in Gaza each year over the same time period.  I think the ceasefire after the last big blowup lasted maybe a year or two, before hostilities continued.

[GrimTuesday]

4 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

But they are attacked for their identity. Have you heard that phonecall one of the Hamas, ahem, liberators made to his parents. He's cheering and shouting "I killed ten Jews!" He ain't talkin' about colonizers.

Yeah, I have heard it, and it's pretty gross, I'm not going to defend that guy. That said, because Israel is The Jewish nation. When a country proudly proclaims itself to be based on a Jewish identity that is inextricably linked to the state of Israel. it's hardly surprising that someone who has been radicalized to the point that they are willing to go out and kill 10 people would think Jew=Israeli. In fact, this is actually why many anti-zionist Jews make the argument that Israel's actions, coupled with its insistence on making Israel inseparable from Jews, actually breeds more resentment and makes Jews in the diaspora more unsafe.

The average Palestinian may not use the word "colonizer", but when they talk about Israelis and Israel, that is what they mean.

3 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

A historic aversion to the very existence of Israel for one plus the continued radicalisation within the education system of palestinians. 

Palestinians opposed the creation of Israel because it meant they were losing their land as part of colonial project, so of course they were opposed to it (though the Palestinian solution back then was a single state where both Palestinians and Jews would have equal rights and protections). As for the education system, you cannot separate the material conditions that Palestinians live under (which are due to Israel's actions) from how their society sees the world and that does lead to radicalization.

1 minute ago, Ran said:

Hardly the only autonomous territory that depends on much from its neighbors. Andorra imports 96% of its energy from Spain and France, something like 60% of its food, etc. If they shut their borders and cut everything off, Andorra would be in a situation not unlike Gaza.

This doesn't mean Andorra isn't a sovereign state, however. So dependence on neighbors is not itself a barrier to sovereignty, or potential soverignty.

Yawn, you can't compare a sovereign state with Gaza, Israel doesn't need to have soldiers paroling the streets to exercise control over Gaza.

[Ran]

13 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Yawn, you can't compare a sovereign state with Gaza, Israel doesn't need to have soldiers paroling the streets to exercise control over Gaza.

If Spain wanted to exercise control over Andorra, it could do so in half a day, at most.

The point is that the situation in Gaza is not due to dependence on anyone. It has been largely determined by it being run by hostile terrorists who looted aid and redirected it into terrorist attacks and infrastructure, greatly impoverishing Gaza.

And yes, Netanyahu encouraged the situation, but it doesn't change that that was the situation. The baddies were given free rein, and they did bad shit.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Yes, that's all you've said. Say something about what the Prime Minister, Finance Minister and Intelligence Minister have said, why don't you?

I literally just did. I've condemned their comments several times. Learn how to read.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

50 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

As for the education system, you cannot separate the material conditions that Palestinians live under (which are due to Israel's actions) from how their society sees the world and that does lead to radicalization.

They were widely taught the same things before Israel was created. This is complete nonsense. 

[Jace, Extat]

2 hours ago, Mudguard said:

Any ceasefire Israel had with Hamas had long ended before Oct. 7th.  Hamas has been launching hundreds, if not thousands, of rockets at Israel for at least the past 5 years, and Israel has been killing hundreds of Palestinians in Gaza each year over the same time period.  I think the ceasefire after the last big blowup lasted maybe a year or two, before hostilities continued.

Sure, but Israel wanted to avoid all-out war until Hamas forced their hand. 

 

2 hours ago, GrimTuesday said:

Yeah, I have heard it, and it's pretty gross, I'm not going to defend that guy. That said, because Israel is The Jewish nation. When a country proudly proclaims itself to be based on a Jewish identity that is inextricably linked to the state of Israel. it's hardly surprising that someone who has been radicalized to the point that they are willing to go out and kill 10 people would think Jew=Israeli. In fact, this is actually why many anti-zionist Jews make the argument that Israel's actions, coupled with its insistence on making Israel inseparable from Jews, actually breeds more resentment and makes Jews in the diaspora more unsafe.

The average Palestinian may not use the word "colonizer", but when they talk about Israelis and Israel, that is what they mean.

While I don't doubt that your heart is in the right place trying to paint Hamas as oppressed liberators, I'm going to literally take their word on this one.

 

 

 

Edited January 8 by Jace, Extat

[Darryk]

2 hours ago, GrimTuesday said:

In fact, this is actually why many anti-zionist Jews make the argument that Israel's actions, coupled with its insistence on making Israel inseparable from Jews, actually breeds more resentment and makes Jews in the diaspora more unsafe.

So when Jews kill Muslims it's Israel's fault, and when Muslims kill Jews,  it's also Israel's fault?

2 hours ago, GrimTuesday said:

As for the education system, you cannot separate the material conditions that Palestinians live under (which are due to Israel's actions) from how their society sees the world and that does lead to radicalization.

Arabs in that region were chanting "the Jews are our dogs" long before Israel was founded.

[Rippounet]

1 hour ago, Darryk said:

So when Jews kill Muslims it's Israel's fault, and when Muslims kill Jews,  it's also Israel's fault?

That's a poor way of phrasing it, but given Israel's economic and military power and its control over water and energy, it has considerably more agency than the Palestinians. Add the -almost unconditional- support of the US, and I really find it difficult to see why would anyone think that Israel doesn't bear the lion's share of the responsibility for whatever the fuck is going on over there...
Add the fact that Netanyahu deliberately let Hamas in power...

The first problem here is switching from a descriptive point of view to a moral one. To say that Israel's actions make Jews less safe throughout the world is descriptive. It doesn't condone anti-semitism in any way, it's merely the description of a mechanical phenomenon, one that Jews often understand well.
The second problem is people in these threads keep wanting to oppose blame on one side with blame on the other, as if the two are mutually exclusive... They aren't.
By that I mean that if a Muslim attacks me tomorrow for being Jewish, it is of course their fault for being dumb and making me guilty by association, but Israel is still also guilty for doing some truly immoral shit in the first place. It's a ripple effect. Or basic causality, I dunno, it really shouldn't be hard to get ffs.

1 hour ago, Jace, Extat said:

Sure, but Israel wanted to avoid all-out war until Hamas forced their hand.

Yeah... You really don't know that, you're just making shit up to fit your own pre-conceived notions about this conflict.

Fact is, there are many reasons to think the Likud is perfectly comfortable with "all-out war" - which in this case is euphemism for ethnic cleansing btw.

4 hours ago, Jace, Extat said:

The logical conclusion is that Hamas cannot remain empowered. Everything else is secondary to that goal, including international law. Because international law doesn't further the safety of a state's citizens.

And.... that's how you justify everything and anything. It's not even a slippery slope, it's the bottom of the hill.

The moment you claim a state can violate "international law" (or any other legal or moral framework) in the name of security... Well, you've given almost limitless possibilities to states.

4 hours ago, Jace, Extat said:

You don't see a difference between Putin's Russia invading Ukraine and Israel defending itself from Hamas?

Under your logic, there is none. That's why it should never ever be be pushed to its "logical conclusion."

[Heartofice]

3 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

By that I mean that if a Muslim attacks me tomorrow for being Jewish, it is of course their fault for being dumb and making me guilty by association, but Israel is still also guilty for doing some truly immoral shit in the first place.

"By that I mean that if someone attacks me tomorrow for being Muslim, it is of course their fault for being dumb and making me guilty by association, but ISIS is still also guilty for doing some truly immoral shit in the first place."

See the problem?

[Kalbear]

10 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

"By that I mean that if someone attacks me tomorrow for being Muslim, it is of course their fault for being dumb and making me guilty by association, but ISIS is still also guilty for doing some truly immoral shit in the first place."

See the problem?

I actually don't. What is the problem of condemning both sides for bad behavior?

I also note the complete ignoring of Israel's actions in the last 20 years towards Palestinians as not being provocative at all. As if hamas solely claims to represent only gazans or doesn't care at all about the hundreds of Palestinians killed yearly by Israel in the west Bank, or the illegal settlements, or Palestinian allies getting cozier with Israel, or the US recognizing Jerusalem as the capital.

As stated above this excuses none of what hamas did on 7-10, but the notion that Israel has been this bastion of goodness up until that point is laughable. As @Jace, Extat 's logic would indicate hamas would be in their rights too to do anything to defend those Palestinians, including violations of international law, no? Because the alternative is, as they said, the acceptance of letting your kids get killed.

[Zorral]

Good frackin' grief.  This morning's BBC World News Service featured an interview in which the Israeli official insisted that the IDF has reported to him that every Palestinian house in which they entered in Gaza had Mein Kampf on their book shelves, and that 78 percent of Palestinians want to leave Gaza and the West Bank, so this isn't ethnic cleansing.  The interviewer had the balls -- a woman! -- to express her incredulity and push back.  "Well, some of the houses," he responded regarding Mein Kampf.  (Yet Israel lurves rump who directly quotes Hitler!)  He also touted how kind Israel has been to Gaza and Palestinians for years and yet "they have not gratitude and plan to kill us."

This Mein Kampf stuff comes from this story back in November reported in Jewish outlets around the world, as one sees from a quick google; here is one example:

https://baltimorejewishlife.com/news/news-detail.php?SECTION_ID=1&ARTICLE_ID=168042

Quote

President Isaac Herzog revealed today, Sunday, in an interview with the BBC’s, Laura Kuenssberg, that IDF forces operating in northern Gaza had discovered a copy of Hitler’s “Mein Kampf” on the body of a terrorist in a children’s bedroom, in a civilian home, being used as a Hamas terror base.

Which again, color me with some shades of skepticism about this, considering the outright lies etc. that Israel has been coming up with for so long.  That there was a copy of this volume found somewhere is possible, I admit -- but suddenly one volume has become present in every house in Gaza -- no.  Also Israel's kindliness to Palestinians?  No.

 

[Jace, Extat]

11 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

 

Yeah... You really don't know that, you're just making shit up to fit your own pre-conceived notions about this conflict.

 

What? I'm dealing with some imagined colonizer out-grouping of Jews to justify sensless slaughter and you're gonna pretend I'm making up the fact that Israel didn't want war? Dawg, if they wanted a war there have been hundreds of missiles they could use as justification. 

Really, you think Israel wanted this war???? They were attacked 

14 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

 

And.... that's how you justify everything and anything. It's not even a slippery slope, it's the bottom of the hill.

The moment you claim a state can violate "international law" (or any other legal or moral framework) in the name of security... Well, you've given almost limitless possibilities to states.

 

Well, from the bottom of the hill here...

Am I incorrect?

"This is a description of a mechanical phenomenon..." 

31 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

 

Under your logic, there is none. That's why it should never ever be be pushed to its "logical conclusion."

I mean this is just ass-over-teakettle wrong, man. 

I mean, when an enemy attacks you, you destroy them and whatever apparatus that enabled them to attack. That is called war, specifically a defensive war. Which is what Israel is doing. 

It is not Israel's fault that Hamas treats its own citizens as hostages and hides among non-combatants. 

 

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Which again, color me with some shades of skepticism about this, considering the outright lies etc. that Israel has been coming up with for so long.  That there was a copy of this volume found somewhere is possible, I admit -- but suddenly one volume has become present in every house in Gaza -- no.  Also Israel's kindliness to Palestinians?  No.

Every house has a copy and a tunnel entrance, as well as several terrorists living in it. And of course, the few who aren’t terrorists are just begging to be relocated to the Congo or the Antarctic, but preferably to Saturn. /s

[kissdbyfire]

Ugh this utterly failed notion of “if someone attacks you, you destroy them and their families and their cities and salt the earth, coz that’s sure to “learn” them”. And what is there to show for it? Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Other than hundreds of thousands of deaths and of course the empowerment and enrichment of the US military industrial complex. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

48 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

That's a poor way of phrasing it, but given Israel's economic and military power

Stop. This is the bullshit argument Hamas wants you to accept. It's why they say a ceasefire to them means Israel stops attacking, but they can keep attacking. 

30 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I actually don't. What is the problem of condemning both sides for bad behavior?

Sure, but most posts in these threads have heavily condemned one side while shrugging at the other, ignoring the latter started this war. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Ugh this utterly failed notion of “if someone attacks you, you destroy them and their families and their cities and salt the earth, coz that’s sure to “learn” them”. And what is there to show for it? Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Other than hundreds of thousands of deaths and of course the empowerment and enrichment of the US military industrial complex. 

And if the side that attacks says that's their goal for you? You cannot gloss over that part. 

[Conflicting Thought]

23 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Ugh this utterly failed notion of “if someone attacks you, you destroy them and their families and their cities and salt the earth, coz that’s sure to “learn” them”. And what is there to show for it? Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Other than hundreds of thousands of deaths and of course the empowerment and enrichment of the US military industrial complex. 

and is full of hypocrecy like how the fuck do you say this 

 

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

The logical conclusion is that Hamas cannot remain empowered. Everything else is secondary to that goal, including international law. Because international law doesn't further the safety of a state's citizens.

and not see how this can be applied to israel form the perspective of palestine. israeli goverment is a terrorist one, comiting thousands of atrocities, killing thousands of kids, women and men mayority civilian for decades, illigaly arresting children and adults, etc, etc... so everything else is secondary to the  goal of taking these people out of power, including international law...that works to no? and if not what is the difference bewtween the two. like who is furthering palestinain safety? 

edit: meant to quote jace

Edited January 8 by Conflicting Thought