Israel - Hamas war XIV

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sure, but that is totally besides the point I was making. The point is, we always get complaints whenever we post something where an Israeli official or politician says something bombastic or spews hateful rhetoric, and the complaints are invariably based on the person not being important enough, or just a random lunatic, or of no consequence, and variations of these. And the problem is that everyone who is talking is saying the same type of thing. So one can’t simply dismiss everything b/c “crazy” or “inconsequential”, or whatever b/c these opinions are very clearly held by a vast majority of politicians and government officials. 

Because people post what some random person said who represents a town with less than 2,000 people. Then say here's the proof of wanting to commit genocide. Do you not get how outrageous that is? Especially when the actual government of Gaza says their goal is a genocide and people don't care about that. This is what I'm taking about when there's a wild imbalance. 

Quote

Well, the problem here is that “Hamas has to be destroyed” can be used to justify any number of atrocities w/ the added bonus of so many experts having said this goal can’t be achieved militarily. So while I agree that Hamas has to be destroyed, I worry that the way Israel is going about it will not be effective b/c even if they do destroy Hamas, which I very much doubt, it will also create the next terrorist organisation - one that could be worse than Hamas. Another concerning factor is that I doubt Netanyahu & co don’t know this. They know and they don’t care, b/c the constant conflicts is exactly what they want, since it gives them the justification to do all the things they’re doing like collective punishment and ethnic cleansing, b/c it will lead to their ultimate goal: Greater Israel w/ no Palestinian state and hopefully no Palestinian people. 

So how would you do it? You can't fight them in your words and it's universally known you can't negotiate with them. So how? 

Edited January 7 by Mr. Chatywin et al.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Because people post what some random person said who represents a town with less than 2,000 people. Then say here's the proof of wanting to commit genocide. Do you not get how outrageous that is? Especially when the actual government of Gaza says their goal is a genocide and people don't care about that. This is what I'm taking about when there's a wild imbalance. 
 

I don’t understand how or why you’re sticking to this? I mean, that is exactly what I’m talking about. It’s not only a former mayor of a tiny village, it’s every politician and every government official who is talking, from the PM down. Do you not get how outrageous it is to keep complaining about the former mayor as if that had been an isolated instance? 

1 minute ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

So how would you do it? You can't fight them in your words and it's universally know you can't negotiate with them. So how? 

I have no idea, I have no expertise in the area. But all the experts talking against a military operation being successful make very valid points imo. The military option does seem to be a guaranteed way of creating more radicalism and more terrorism. And again, I think Netanyahu knows this and worse, welcomes it. Because it not only keeps him in power but also gives him the justification to do what he’s been talking about since at least the 70s. Netanyahu doesn’t give a flying fuck about anyone, that much seems pretty obvious to me, so if more wars and more deaths, including that of Israelis, is what he sees as necessary for him to maintain his position, he will go all in. 

[Conflicting Thought]

11 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

So how would you do it? You can't fight them in your words and it's universally known you can't negotiate with them. So how? 

them meaning hamas?

[Conflicting Thought]

12 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Because people post what some random person said who represents a town with less than 2,000 people. Then say here's the proof of wanting to commit genocide. Do you not get how outrageous that is? Especially when the actual government of Gaza says their goal is a genocide and people don't care about that. This is what I'm taking about when there's a wild imbalance. 

bro stop, pls stop. its not just nobodies,we are not talking about the mayor anymore we are talking about a person in congress. i would post the many examples of ministers and congress peoples that have said thing of that nature, as people has done in this threads multiple times, but why bother if you are going to pretend like they dont exist. pull the veil out of your eyes, try to see how things are in the material world, even if they contradict your deeply held belives.

[Jace, Extat]

There's terrorism now. The point of the war is to kill the terrorists. Now.

Saying that there could be more terrorism tomorrow is completely shruggable because 1,400 dead Jews testify to the fact that Hamas has to go. No sovereignty in the world could do other than Israel is doing. They just pay a special optics price on account of that pesky Jewishness. 

 

[Larry of the Lawn]

8 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

There's terrorism now. The point of the war is to kill the terrorists. Now.

Saying that there could be more terrorism tomorrow is completely shruggable because 1,400 dead Jews testify to the fact that Hamas has to go. No sovereignty in the world could do other than Israel is doing. They just pay a special optics price on account of that pesky Jewishness. 

 

Bull shit.  The "special optics price" is because there are 20,000 dead people as a result of killing a few thousand terrorists.  

If you want history and violence to keep repeating themselves then maybe "shruggable" is a great policy.  

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

There's terrorism now. The point of the war is to kill the terrorists. Now.

Saying that there could be more terrorism tomorrow is completely shruggable because 1,400 dead Jews testify to the fact that Hamas has to go. No sovereignty in the world could do other than Israel is doing.

This statement is, at best, disingenuous. No one has said to leave the terrorists alone so they can live a long life. 

9 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

They just pay a special optics price on account of that pesky Jewishness. 

[Ran]

34 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

No one has said to leave the terrorists alone so they can live a long life. 

"Permanent ceasefire" is exactly a demand for that. If the IDF proceeds to do targeted operations, that would break the ceasefire, hence those wanting a permanent ceasefire literally want Hamas to be left alone.

[Jace, Extat]

34 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

Bull shit.  The "special optics price" is because there are 20,000 dead people as a result of killing a few thousand terrorists.  

If you want history and violence to keep repeating themselves then maybe "shruggable" is a great policy.  

What I want is irrelevant to the facts of the matter. What I see is a military solution to a military problem. That is the fault of Hamas, this was not policy until Hamas broke the ceasefire with an invasion and slaughter.

 

33 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

This statement is, at best, disingenuous. No one has said to leave the terrorists alone so they can live a long life. 

 

Nah, just wishmaking about how they'll maybe go away on their own. That doesn't fly when they're your neighbor.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t understand how or why you’re sticking to this? I mean, that is exactly what I’m talking about. It’s not only a former mayor of a tiny village, it’s every politician and every government official who is talking, from the PM down. Do you not get how outrageous it is to keep complaining about the former mayor as if that had been an isolated instance? 

It's every politician you're seeing on social media.
 

Quote

I have no idea, I have no expertise in the area. 

 So why take such strong stances? As to the experts, who are they? Because I can just throw back many here think there's no other choice if the goal is to destroy Hamas and their infrastructure. Now do I think that will lead to more problems down the road? Of course, but there's no negotiating with Hamas so fighting is really the only option. 

1 hour ago, Conflicting Thought said:

bro stop, pls stop. its not just nobodies,we are not talking about the mayor anymore we are talking about a person in congress

So the crazy shit a US senator says matters if they have no power to act on it? Welcome to politics 101. 

17 minutes ago, Ran said:

"Permanent ceasefire" is exactly a demand for that. If the IDF proceeds to do targeted operations, that would break the ceasefire, hence those wanting a permanent ceasefire literally want Hamas to be left alone.

Keep in mind Hamas is open about not respecting a ceasefire, so that's not even the correct terminology. They want Israel to stop attacking without guarantees they'll return hostages while saying they still have every right to keep attacking. 

What government would agree to those terms?  

[Conflicting Thought]

1 hour ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

So the crazy shit a US senator says matters if they have no power to act on it? Welcome to politics 101. 

the thing that me and others are saying and  you dont want to aknowledge is that its not just people that dont matter that are saying this things. 

[Hmmm]

The IDF yesterday claimed that they have broken most of the resistance in the northern part of the Gaza Strip, and that the main military operations from this point on will focus on the central and southern parts: https://www.idf.il/169971

About a week ago the IDF started the process of demobilizing some of its units that had been fighting in northern Gaza. Furthermore, the conflict maps that have been released indicate that there are only some small pockets left in the northern Gaza Strip where the IDF isn't currently engaged in clearing operations. 

Northern Gaza was the most densely populated and fortified part of the region prior to the invasion, and the IDF has already taken over a big portion of the city of Khan Yunis in the south. So hopefully the intensity of this war will start winding down pretty soon. 

Edited January 7 by Hmmm

[Ran]

Relevant to previous discussion:

Quote

Herzog also says that the government of Israel does not in any way support encouraging mass displacement of Palestinians from Gaza, saying it is “totally not the position of the Israeli government or the Israeli parliament or the Israeli public.”

He notes that while some ministers have spoken out in favor of such a move, “people can say whatever they want, in a cabinet of 30 ministers, a minister can say whatever he wants, this is Israeli politics.”

 

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

It's every politician you're seeing on social media.

No, every politician I’m seeing in every mainstream media outlet such as cnn, msnbc, bbc, and on and on. As we have posted here time and time again.

[Zorral]

Why yes, the whole world is noticing the one and only plan is ethnic cleansing.

The Israel Hayom newspaper reported on Nov. 30 that Mr. Netanyahu had asked Strategic Affairs Minister Ron Dermer, one of his closest confidants, to develop a plan to “thin” the population in Gaza “to a minimum” by prying open Egypt’s doors and opening up sea routes to other countries. Mr. Netanyahu also reportedly urged President Biden and the leaders of Britain and France to push Egypt to admit hundreds of thousands of Gazan refugees.

What Will Happen to Gaza’s People?

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/07/opinion/israel-gaza-war.html

Quote

 

...  growing number of Israeli officials are saying it out loud: They don’t want to force just Hamas out of Gaza. They want many of Gaza’s people to leave, too.

The calls for population transfers started long before Gaza was reduced to the ruins that it is today. Six days after Hamas’s massacre of Israelis on Oct. 7, the Intelligence Ministry proposed permanently relocating Gazans to the Sinai region of Egypt. On Nov. 14, Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich said he supported “the voluntary emigration of Gaza Arabs to countries around the world.” Five days later, Intelligence Minister Gila Gamliel endorsed “the voluntary resettlement of Palestinians in Gaza, for humanitarian reasons, outside of the Strip.”

The Israel Hayom newspaper reported on Nov. 30 that Mr. Netanyahu had asked Strategic Affairs Minister Ron Dermer, one of his closest confidants, to develop a plan to “thin” the population in Gaza “to a minimum” by prying open Egypt’s doors and opening up sea routes to other countries. Mr. Netanyahu also reportedly urged President Biden and the leaders of Britain and France to push Egypt to admit hundreds of thousands of Gazan refugees.

At times, Israeli officials have downplayed or denied these reports. Mr. Netanyahu’s office called the Intelligence Ministry’s transfer plan a mere “concept paper” and Israel’s embassy in Washington clarified that the intelligence minister was speaking only for herself. Other influential government ministers — like Defense Minister Yoav Gallant and Benny Gantz, a Netanyahu rival and former chief of staff of the Israeli military who joined the government after Oct. 7 — oppose moving Gaza’s population outside the Strip, according to Israel Hayom. Mr. Gallant, it emerged last week, has floated a proposal that would have Palestinians unconnected to Hamas or the Palestinian Authority administering the territory, with other countries overseeing reconstruction.

But in recent days the talk of Palestinian departures from Gaza has grown louder. At a meeting of his Likud party on Dec. 25, Mr. Netanyahu was urged by a legislator to put into place a team to facilitate the “voluntary” departure of Palestinians from Gaza. The prime minister reportedly replied that the government was “working on” finding countries willing to take them.

Similar comments from Israel’s national security minister followed, with The Times of Israel asserting on Wednesday that voluntary resettlement from Gaza is gradually becoming “a key official policy of the government.”

Some might dismiss this talk of population transfer as wartime bluster. But on the ground, it is already well underway: Gaza is becoming uninhabitable. According to the United Nations, an estimated 85 percent of Gaza’s people are now displaced. Even if they could return to their homes, many would have little to go back to since, according to an analysis by The Wall Street Journal, nearly 70 percent of Gaza’s housing is damaged or destroyed. ....

 

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

the thing that me and others are saying and  you dont want to aknowledge is that its not just people that dont matter that are saying this things. 

Rushing to point out comments from minor figures or fringe super right wing politicians like they reflect everyone's views is a problem. It also shows not knowing even who they are.

39 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, every politician I’m seeing in every mainstream media outlet such as cnn, msnbc, bbc, and on and on. As we have posted here time and time again.

There's a lot of disagreement among the main players. They just agree that Hamas has to be ended. How to do so is complicated because again, they're not going peacefully. 

[Kalbear]

14 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Rushing to point out comments from minor figures or fringe super right wing politicians like they reflect everyone's views is a problem.

Dude, it was Netanyahu. 

 

[Zorral]

It's still Netanyanu like here it still is trump.  Hardly minor figures then or now.  Why do you keep saying otherwise?

Particularly since ethnic cleansing has been the stated goal of the Likud party since its founding.

Edited January 8 by Zorral

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Dude, it was Netanyahu. 

Dude, it was not who I was commenting on. Call out anything that piece of shit says. My point is stop citing fringe figures. 

[GrimTuesday]

The point is that this is not a fringe position, it absolutely a widely held, and popular position that reflects the intentions of the governing body of Israel. For all the time spent crying about an imagined future genocide, it appears impossible for some to recognize that one is being carried out before our eyes.

Edited January 8 by GrimTuesday