What are your headcanons for F&B and TWOIAF?

[maesternewton]

Mine are that:

Daenys the Dreamer was the first rider of Balerion.

Alicent Hightower’s mother was a Redwyne.

Sara Snow and Jacaerys had a child together, that's another reason why Cregan was delayed. The child is Lynara Stark, who was eventually married by Cregan Stark himself. The main stark line had some Targ blood.

Edited December 25, 2023 by maesternewton

[Willam Stark]

21 hours ago, maesternewton said:

Sara Snow and Jacaerys had a child together, that's another reason why Cregan was delayed. The child is Lynara Stark, who was eventually married by Cregan Stark himself. The main stark line had some Targ blood.

Lynara Stark comes from a cadet branch of House Stark and was Cregan's cousin, not his niece.

If you're looking for Targ blood in the main line, you should bet on Melantha Blackwood who would be the daughter of one of Bloodraven's sisters. I don't believe it's the case, but it's the most likely option.

My turn

- Myriah Martell was the granddaughter of Aliandra Martell and Drazenko Rogare, which makes her a second cousin of King Daeron II through the Rogare side.

- Jenna Dondarrion and Aelinor Penrose were great-granddaughters of Baela and Alyn Velaryon, third cousins of Daeron's II sons through the Targ side.

- Dyanna Dayne was the great-granddaughter of Rhaena and Garmund Hightower, third cousin of Daeron's II sons as well

- Rhae Targaryen (Egg's younger sister) married Lord Jasper Arryn and is Jon Arryn's mother, which means that he is Robert's first cousin twice removed through the Targ side.

- Melantha and Betha Blackwood were sisters, the former was the eldest, making Ned a third cousin of Robert and Aerys' children through the Blackwood side.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Willam Stark

[maesternewton]

7 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

Lynara Stark comes from a cadet branch of House Stark and was Cregan's cousin, not his niece.

If you're looking for Targ blood in the main line, you should bet on Melantha Blackwood who would be the daughter of one of Bloodraven's sisters. I don't believe it's the case, but it's the most likely option.

That's the official narrative. My headcanon is that Cregan went and coerced or bribed a destitute Stark relative, from a minor branch of the family, to marry Sara and acknowledge Sara's child as their own and so they could hide the fact that she is the daughter of Jacaerys Velaryon.

Mushroom suggests that Jacaerys forgot a clutch of dragon eggs in the crypts beneath Winterfell. The clutch of dragon eggs could stand for a (fertile) dragon lady born from the love between Jace and Sara.

Plus she is the first Lynara, the is no other Lynara before her, which means she is the one who brought the name into the North. The only other time we see a name similar to Lynara is Lianna Velayron. 

[Willam Stark]

53 minutes ago, maesternewton said:

That's the official narrative. My headcanon is that Cregan went and coerced or bribed a destitute Stark relative, from a minor branch of the family, to marry Sara and acknowledge Sara's child as their own and so they could hide the fact that she is the daughter of Jacaerys Velaryon.

She would still be his niece and not his cousin, regardless of the official identity of the father.

Targ blood cannot come from Sara Snow's bloodline, if she ever existed.

[KingAerys_II]

The Cannibal was Aurion dragon.

The great Westerosi Houses hired the Faceless Men to kill Maegor the Cruel.

Aegon conquered Westeros because of the dragon dream about the Long Night and the Martells know it.

Goemon was the rider of Balerion , he married Daenys.

Every Tarharyen except for Aerys, Rhaella and Rhaegar died at Summerhall

 

[Alester Florent]

1 hour ago, maesternewton said:

Plus she is the first Lynara, the is no other Lynara before her, which means she is the one who brought the name into the North. The only other time we see a name similar to Lynara is Lianna Velayron. 

There are a lot of unique names in the Stark tree and we only have a handful of names from before Lynara. Cregan is the first Cregan on the tree: does that mean that his name was introduced from elsewhere?

More likely, Lynara is a fairly traditional Stark name (or variant of a traditional Stark name; messing around with names to make them slightly different seems to be a Westerosi thing) and this Lynara is merely the first one we know about.

With regard to Sara Snow, the only source for her existence at all is Mushroom, and he is not the most reliable of sources. And unlike his Crownlands gossip, he wasn't within a thousand miles of Winterfell when the supposed affair between Jace and Sara went down, nor did he probably ever even lay eyes on Sara. I think there's a limit to how much weight we can place on this when theorising.

Sara doesn't appear in the Stark family tree in the World book, which suggests that either her existence is extremely poorly attested in-world (unlikely if her daughter married Cregan later), or GRRM didn't come up with the idea until after that book was published, which suggests that any relationship between Jace and Sara is probably irrelevant to the longstanding main plot (thereby putting paid to serious theories about this resulting in ice dragons and so on). Note that Gyldayn (i.e. GRRM's voice) openly queries whether Sara even existed.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Alester Florent]

9 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

The Cannibal was Aurion dragon.

The great Westerosi Houses hired the Faceless Men to kill Maegor the Cruel.

Aegon conquered Westeros because of the dragon dream about the Long Night and the Martells know it.

Goemon was the rider of Balerion , he married Daenys.

Every Tarharyen except for Aerys, Rhaella and Rhaegar died at Summerhall

 

What does any of this have to do with the thread?

[KingAerys_II]

13 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

What does any of this have to do with the thread?

My headcanons

[PrettyLittlePsycho]

My take:

R+L=J is BS promoted by the abomination. Jon´s the son of Ned and a woman he secretly married early during the rebellion. Might have been Ashara Dayne, not sure on that though.

Ned was later forced by Hoster Tully to marry Cat fully knowing he was already married. Ned had to do it though to get the support of the Riverlands.

Bottom line, Jon is the actual heir to Winterfell, Cats children are bastards.

[Him of Many Faces]

Alicent and all Hightowers have Valyrian look about them. It's never told anywhere what the inheritable Hightower characteristics are but since the two Hightowers who are described in the story (Lynesse and Alerie) can be considered Valyrian-looking, my headcanon considers all Hightowers to have blonde-to silver hair and some shade of blue or violet eyes. I also think this is why Jahaerys confused young Alicent with his daughter. I wish Gyldayn weren't so mysterious about the Hightowers. 

[Willam Stark]

8 hours ago, PrettyLittlePsycho said:

R+L=J is BS promoted by the abomination.

Well D&D got their job because they guessed correctly who's Jon Snow's mother and it turns out to be Lyanna in the show, so this is pretty much canon at this point. The real mystery now is "who's the father" and it can't be Ned since he was separated from his sister for a year.

[sifth]

What annoys me about these two books, is that we're constantly given unreliable information. This seems to only exist, so GRRM has room to change his mind on events in future books, if he should so choose. I imagine this will have a minimal effect on the main series, but could possibly have larger ones for the Dunk and Egg series, if he ever get another one of those stories.

[PrettyLittlePsycho]

43 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

Well D&D got their job because they guessed correctly who's Jon Snow's mother and it turns out to be Lyanna in the show, so this is pretty much canon at this point. The real mystery now is "who's the father" and it can't be Ned since he was separated from his sister for a year.

And GRRM with his "Gardener writing style" changes the plot more often than his socks.

So I wouldn´t count on info that old.

[Lord Varys]

On 12/25/2023 at 8:12 PM, maesternewton said:

Alicent Hightower’s mother was a Redwyne.

It seems more likely that Otto's elder brother, Ormund's father, married a Redwyne, as his son Lyonel is close kin to them. If Alicent's mother was a Redwyne, then them effectively sitting out the Dance would be a really cowardly thing to do.

As a younger son my best guess for Otto's wife would be from a house sworn to Oldtown, and most likely one from a house which stayed true to the Hightowers during the Dance, i.e. a Cuy or Bulwer, since the Beesburys, Costaynes and Mullendores declared for Rhaenyra.

21 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

- Myriah Martell was the granddaughter of Aliandra Martell and Drazenko Rogare, which makes her a second cousin of King Daeron II through the Rogare side.

If the MUSH is any indication, then Aliandra won't continue the main line of House Martell.

21 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

- Jenna Dondarrion and Aelinor Penrose were great-granddaughters of Baela and Alyn Velaryon, third cousins of Daeron's II sons through the Targ side.

That is pretty likely, as the second Laena Velaryon is old enough to be grandmother to both.

21 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

- Dyanna Dayne was the great-granddaughter of Rhaena and Garmund Hightower, third cousin of Daeron's II sons as well

That could work as well, although Rhaena having six daughters means she could actually be only their granddaughter. Rhaena and Garmund are likely going to marry somewhat later due to Garmund's age and the pregnancies could be stretch out to 10-15 years rather than happening in close succession.

21 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

- Rhae Targaryen (Egg's younger sister) married Lord Jasper Arryn and is Jon Arryn's mother, which means that he is Robert's first cousin twice removed through the Targ side.

That would be an interesting idea, but it might be more interesting to have Rhaegel's wife Alys as another Targaryen cousin, through one of Rhaena's/Baela's girls.

Still, the Arryns might be rewarded with a Targaryen bride in the wake of their loyalty to Daeron II on the Redgrass Field.

21 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

- Melantha and Betha Blackwood were sisters, the former was the eldest, making Ned a third cousin of Robert and Aerys' children through the Blackwood side.

That is not unlikely at all.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Him of Many Faces said:

Alicent and all Hightowers have Valyrian look about them. It's never told anywhere what the inheritable Hightower characteristics are but since the two Hightowers who are described in the story (Lynesse and Alerie) can be considered Valyrian-looking, my headcanon considers all Hightowers to have blonde-to silver hair and some shade of blue or violet eyes. I also think this is why Jahaerys confused young Alicent with his daughter. I wish Gyldayn weren't so mysterious about the Hightowers. 

There is a lot to that, actually, and I think the best way to make sense of that is that quite a few Lords of Oldtown took brides from the Free Cities - especially Lys and Volantis - over the years. Would make sense if Otto's father were one of those.

Definitely, I think, the textual evidence in the book (Jaehaerys mistaking Alicent for Saera and other daughters) points towards Alicent not being dark-haired. Doesn't mean she would have had Valyrian looks, specifically, but she clearly didn't leave any traits on any of her four children that we know of. They all seemed to have inherited the Valyrian looks.

[SaffronLady]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

quite a few Lords of Oldtown took brides from the Free Cities - especially Lys and Volantis - over the years.

As some sort of anti-Dorne alliance?

[James Steller]

If Marston Waters hadn’t died during the Secret Siege, Aegon would have taken him up on his offer and ordered him to fall on his sword once he came of age. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by James Steller

[Lord Varys]

37 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

As some sort of anti-Dorne alliance?

For any reason. I'd assume that trade relations would be a good reason. And FaB revealed that quite a few Hightowers were seafarers themselves, so them coming home with a foreign bride or arranging matches abroad feels quite natural.

In fact, if there is any Westerosi nobility intermarrying with Valyrian nobility (not necessarily dragonlords but nobility) before the Doom we would also expect the Hightowers to have been some such, as it is quite noteworthy that the Citadel owns some Valyrian glass candles. Those are, presumably, not artifacts the Valyrians handed out like trinkets, especially not to some barbarians at the edge of the known world.

6 minutes ago, James Steller said:

If Marston Waters hadn’t died during the Secret Siege, Aegon would have taken him up on his offer and ordered him to fall on his sword once he came of age. 

I think if the events of the Regency era up to and after the Secret Siege hadn't taken care of any of Aegon II's poisoned legacies, Aegon III would have cleansed his KG the way Jaehaerys I cleansed his when he took the throne.

And not just because Marston was the guy who helped to murder his mother ... but also because the entire order sucked hard during the Regency. They could not only not prevent a number of assassinations and assassination attempts, they may have been complicit in several of them (most noteworthy the death of Queen Jaehaera). Somebody would have to take the blame for all that shit.

I'm also reasonably confident that Aegon III will restore Ser Robert Darklyn to the KG eventually, unless George wants to invent eight Darklyns to serve on the KG. Ser Robin Massey is slain during the Regency era, but Ser Robert might be still around in late 136 AC.

[SaffronLady]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

For any reason. I'd assume that trade relations would be a good reason. And FaB revealed that quite a few Hightowers were seafarers themselves, so them coming home with a foreign bride or arranging matches abroad feels quite natural.

Come to think of it, info is scarce on the seafarer Houses' relationships with each other. Lannister-Redwyne-Oldtown-Velaryon-Manderly relations would have been an interesting aspect of Westerosi politics. Such as how they peace out and fight the ironborn together and stuff.

[James Steller]

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

I think if the events of the Regency era up to and after the Secret Siege hadn't taken care of any of Aegon II's poisoned legacies, Aegon III would have cleansed his KG the way Jaehaerys I cleansed his when he took the throne.

And not just because Marston was the guy who helped to murder his mother ... but also because the entire order sucked hard during the Regency. They could not only not prevent a number of assassinations and assassination attempts, they may have been complicit in several of them (most noteworthy the death of Queen Jaehaera). Somebody would have to take the blame for all that shit.

 

Much as I love the notion of Aegon purging his Kingsguard and starting from scratch, I doubt that ended up happening. Surely we would have heard rumblings of it by now.