YouTube video: Hypocrisy Much ? | Game of Thrones and A Song of Ice and Fire double standards

[Lord Varys]

34 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Nope. Payne was there. The Red keep was Jonestown if it wasn't for Renley's Ghost.

For the point when there was the decision between death and Stannis' mercy. That you want to go on your own terms then is more than understandable. Cersei even told Sansa she would plead with any other man but Stannis for terms and stuff ... but she knew that she could not expect mercy from Stannis for her herself or her children. And I think she is completely on point there.

Not sure how quickly the castle would surrender if the city were to fall. But I think some days or longer they could have held out precisely because the people at court knew that Stannis knows no mercy.

1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Sillier than dreams or empty words? We have to use something. I tend to judge people more on what they do than what they say.  

Cersei doesn't have to prove she loves her children. We know that she does. What we can discuss is if her actions properly or adequately express her love. 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

For the point when there was the decision between death and Stannis' mercy. That you want to go on your own terms then is more than understandable. Cersei even told Sansa she would plead with any other man but Stannis for terms and stuff ... but she knew that she could not expect mercy from Stannis for her herself or her children. And I think she is completely on point there.

Not sure how quickly the castle would surrender if the city were to fall. But I think some days or longer they could have held out precisely because the people at court knew that Stannis knows no mercy.

Could take 5 minutes, could take 5 years. If the city fell, Cersei was going to have her son killed beside her (wonder who would go first?). Call it what you like. I have troubles seeing where the word 'love' could possibly apply.

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei doesn't have to prove she loves her children. We know that she does. What we can discuss is if her actions properly or adequately express her love.

"We" certainly don't know that. I dispute it and as I've said before I see no evidence of it. As far as I'm concerned her actions express her feelings quite clearly. Her kids are props and mirrors and means to power.

Here she is with Jamie with their dead child beside them 

Hurry," she was whispering now, "quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime." Her hands helped guide him. "Yes," Cersei said as he thrust, "my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you're home now, you're home now, you're home." She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei's heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.

Clearly devastated by her loss.

[Landis]

On 1/10/2024 at 3:58 PM, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

"We" certainly don't know that. I dispute it and as I've said before I see no evidence of it. As far as I'm concerned her actions express her feelings quite clearly. Her kids are props and mirrors and means to power.

Here she is with Jamie with their dead child beside them 

Hurry," she was whispering now, "quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime." Her hands helped guide him. "Yes," Cersei said as he thrust, "my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you're home now, you're home now, you're home." She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei's heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.

Clearly devastated by her loss.

I'm not sure why you would privilege a scene from another character's perspective as a way to divine Cersei's internal motivations over the multiple citations boltons are sick provided from Cersei's actual POV, but moving on...

You... get that Cersei is being raped in that scene, right..? The show might have changed some things around to make it more unambiguously clear, but this scene and a parallel scene where Jaime refuses Cersei's advances in the White Sword Tower later on set up the complete collapse of Cersei's understanding of her relationship with Jaime, and everything in Feast implies that Jaime raping Cersei is key to her complete divorce from the reality of her circumstances. She literally spends the entire book trying to process it, and the parallels she is forced to draw between Jaime and Robert as a result. Raping Taena Merryweather is a fundamental part of her trying to rationalize why Jaime would have done this to her; she had thought Robert was just a brute, but because Jaime has now raped her as well, she needs to find a reason, because Jaime is the one she constructed in her mind as having loved her genuinely, and never wanting to hurt her. When she feels cold after raping Taena, it is confirmation for her that what Jaime did was just as violent as what Robert had always done, though Robert had also often been drunk; so what does it mean to Cersei to realize that Jaime raped her fully sober? 

I fully expect all of this to play out more fully in Winds (the extent of the Walk of Shame's impact on Cersei's already very visible sexual trauma in Feast is yet to be established), but for the sake of your present point: Cersei (who Jaime notes beforehand is visibly disheveled in her grief) very clearly did not want to have sex with Jaime next to her son's corpse, she vocally and physically resisted, and at no point indicates having gotten any pleasure from the encounter. On the contrary, accounting for the clear bias in Jaime's perspective, Cersei is visibly traumatized by what has just happened, recoiling from his touch, telling him that he's scaring her, that he has changed, backing away from him, and stressing that she wants him to leave her presence immediately.

Reread the entire scene, and if you have the time, reread her chapters in Feast. If you are basing your argument that Cersei doesn't love her children through an interpretation of this scene, you are faaaaar off base. Even ignoring the reality that there are plenty of people who grieve through having sex, with this being particularly the case when you have lost a child or a partner... Jaime is the only one in this scene who might be said to be grieving in this way. Cersei is literally just there, crying, in day-old clothes, her hair and make up not done, weeping over her son's dead body, and on top of it, girl is menstruating as well. 

[kissdbyfire]

On 1/10/2024 at 4:58 PM, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Could take 5 minutes, could take 5 years. If the city fell, Cersei was going to have her son killed beside her (wonder who would go first?). Call it what you like. I have troubles seeing where the word 'love' could possibly apply.

"We" certainly don't know that. I dispute it and as I've said before I see no evidence of it. As far as I'm concerned her actions express her feelings quite clearly. Her kids are props and mirrors and means to power.

Here she is with Jamie with their dead child beside them 

Hurry," she was whispering now, "quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime." Her hands helped guide him. "Yes," Cersei said as he thrust, "my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you're home now, you're home now, you're home." She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei's heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.

Clearly devastated by her loss.

She says she loves her children (and Jaime) and even commits many evil deeds that are justified by this “love”, don’t you see it? She says it many times, it must be true b/c fuck nuance, subtlety, consistency. Right? /s

 

[Adaneth]

On 1/8/2024 at 8:45 PM, boltons are sick said:

Cersei truly loves her children. And she doesn't use her love for them as justification for her actions, she genuinely commits them because she believes that otherwise her kids are going to die. Not saying it completely justifies her, but most of her actions are not done for the sake of increasing her personal power like many fans believe.

Don't make me go through all Cersei's thoughts in AFFC, let alone actions, because I finished that a month ago. Yes, I do believe she loves her children, in the sense that I know she doesn't hate them or do them harm willingly. However, her actions are driven mainly from her desire to prove something for herself, and also get daddy's approval, even from the grave. 

I'm not a big lover of Catelyn. I think she made some crucial mistakes and didn't reflect on them enough, while spending a lot of time judging the actions of others. However, the only similarity she has in common with Cersei is that they are both females and have children. 

 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

11 hours ago, Landis said:

You... get that Cersei is being raped in that scene, right..?

No... I don't...

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

She says she loves her children (and Jaime) and even commits many evil deeds that are justified by this “love”, don’t you see it? She says it many times, it must be true b/c fuck nuance, subtlety, consistency. Right? /s

 

I'm starting to think that there's such a dearth of felt love out there that people don't have a baseline for objectively appreciating this monstrous woman's qualities as a mother.

 

Whatever. She loved her children. What do I care what people think?

[Landis]

On 1/8/2024 at 3:35 PM, boltons are sick said:

I found an interesting video which elaborates on some double standards ASOIAF fans have. One of the more interesting comparisons is how similar Catelyn and Cersei are, yet Catelyn is far more liked because she is a Stark, but Cersei is hated because she is a Lannister despite their similarities.

Here is a link to the video in question on the exact place where this comparison is made. Do you agree with the person who has made the video or not?

I think the critique a number of folks in this thread have made about there being few similarities between the characters is fair, and it does definitely appear to be the case that the person who made this video is referring to the show, specifically. As an aside, I would also note that I'm not sure there is really a double standard between these two characters, as I've actually seen quite a lot of Cat hate from fans who love the Starks, love Jon, love Tyrion, love Ned, love Robb, etc. More often, what I would say is that characters like Cat and Sansa in particular, both among book and show-only fandoms, have served as focal points for double standards between female and male characters, with these two often being useful in revealing audience biases against female characters specifically. I would personally say that Cersei gets read in very biased ways as well, but because audiences tend to read her as having more agency than Cat and Sansa (like Arya or Dany, for example), the biases often don't get recognized as been necessarily negative in character: while Cat and Sansa are often read as "divisive" characters in terms of their morality, or get read as pathetic for their "weakness"/"incompetence"/"emotionality", there tends to be a very broad agreement by all parties that Cersei is not a morally-pure character, and so "liking" her as a character is often about embracing or celebrating that lack of morality (whether real or perceived) for its own sake. Bluntly, a lot of people "like" Cersei precisely because she is "evil". 

As far as this specific video is concerned, I feel like she is working with some relatively superficial characterizations here, and a lot of that does come down to the fact that the show is the text being used for analysis here (and even then, I would say that if you wanted to compare and contrast the two characters, there are ways to to that at length that would be more conducive to proving the point than what is done here). This being said, she is correct in identifying the similarity between the two in that they both share the "role" of being mothers to aristocratic children. In fact, there is a really great scene in book two where Catelyn prays to the Mother for Cersei, thinking on the many similar struggles they have in this particular regard: she has a very hard time identifying anything to empathize with Cersei on, but on this, she feels that they share something. 

I don't think I agree with the idea of comparing them as characters, though, this being said. On the contrary, I think GRRM uses them as foils of each other, with the specific intent of not allowing readers to reduce characters to their roles or stations. It's like "Here, look at these two mothers, and recognize that 'being a mom' manifests different behaviours in different individuals and circumstances. There are some similarities, but different people with engage with that role in different ways." This provides a further opportunity to use them as ways to mirror GRRM's use of Ned and Robert as foils of each other, two men of similar age, raised by the same man, but nonetheless turning out to be very different people, and treating their wives and children in very different ways. 

Where GRRM attempts to navigate similarity of character (in my opinion) for Cat and Cersei is through Sansa and Arya, respectively, with Sansa reflecting Cat's version of femininity that is often manifested through religiosity, while Arya's relationship with this traditional femininity is much more similar to the lack of comfort Cersei feels with imposed gender roles. Margaery appears to be more of a balance between Cat and Cersei, with the show version being particularly pointed in drawing those connections. 

So yeah, tldr; fans treat both Catelyn and Cersei with double standards, but personally, I have rarely seen this articulated as having anything to do with how they relate to their children. Instead, fans treat them with double standards where morality and competency are concerned, with Cat being hated for both rare instances of deviancy from her role as a woman, and for upholding the expectations of that role, causing male characters to "look bad", while Cersei's deviancy is more treated as an opportunity to "love to hate", with her status as a "failed" or "failing" woman being part of what many people find appealing about her character (despite the rationale for this appeal often being negative).

Personally, I am more interested in feminist and postcolonial perspectives on the two characters, which are rarely forthcoming, and even more rarely considered acceptable by general audiences who seem much more comfortable reifying many of the misogynist tropes GRRM actually seems to be working to subvert, but that's just me. 

[Landis]

15 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

No... I don't...

Happy to do a close reading, if that is something you are interested in. Otherwise, I'll lay off and let you be.

[Him of Many Faces]

On 1/8/2024 at 9:35 PM, boltons are sick said:

I found an interesting video which elaborates on some double standards ASOIAF fans have. One of the more interesting comparisons is how similar Catelyn and Cersei are, yet Catelyn is far more liked because she is a Stark, but Cersei is hated because she is a Lannister despite their similarities.

Here is a link to the video in question on the exact place where this comparison is made. Do you agree with the person who has made the video or not?

I'll watch the video although personally I've seen so much more passionate hatred for Catelyn from the fandom than for Cersei. 

[StarkTullies]

Years ago, I watched some of GrayArea's videos (the linked video in the original post), and I enjoyed her content until her irritational hatred of Catelyn and Sansa became so annoying I gave up on her.  Comparing Cersei to Catelyn is absolutely absurd, but the point in the video isn't "Cersei is as good Catelyn", but that she hates Catelyn so much that she is saying "Catelyn is as bad as Cersei".  A claim I wildly disagree with, but the brief portion of the video is not pro-Cersei but anti-Catelyn.

Edited January 13 by StarkTullies

[Him of Many Faces]

On 1/8/2024 at 9:42 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t think Cersei truly loves her children despite using them and her alleged love as justification for many of her evil deeds. 

I believe she loves them in her own messed up way, it's just that for her the well-being of her kids and the source of her power are such interwoven concepts in her mind that one also means the other.

Quote

My son is safe, Cersei told herself. No harm can come to him, not here, not now. Yet every time she looked at Tommen, she saw Joffrey clawing at his throat. And when the boy began to cough the queen's heart stopped beating for a moment. She knocked aside a serving girl in her haste to reach him

Of course I'm making no argument she's a good parent in any way whatsoever - Tywin, Jaime and Kevan are all right in wanting to separate Cersei from her kids.

Quote

"Tommen?" she said, in a dangerously soft voice. "What is it now?"
The boy knew that tone. He shrank back.

[Him of Many Faces]

On 1/8/2024 at 9:35 PM, boltons are sick said:

Here is a link to the video in question on the exact place where this comparison is made. Do you agree with the person who has made the video or not?

Overall she makes good points but gives weak examples. 

[kissdbyfire]

15 minutes ago, Him of Many Faces said:

I believe she loves them in her own messed up way,

Semantics, then. Because “her own messed up way” is not love but transactional interest and narcissism.

15 minutes ago, Him of Many Faces said:

it's just that for her the well-being of her kids and the source of her power are such interwoven concepts in her mind that one also means the other.

She doesn’t give a flying fuck about the well-being of her children. She says she does, just like she says she loves them, but again there’s enormous distance between what she says and how she behaves and even thinks about this. She might even convince herself of the truthfulness of her words b/c it furthers her own agenda and propaganda, and b/c it’s what narcissists do - at least the ones I know behave exactly this way. 
 

Cersei and how much she loves anyone or anything other than herself is, as ever, a case of watching what they do, not what they say. 

[Him of Many Faces]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

She says she does, just like she says she loves them, but again there’s enormous distance between what she says and how she behaves and even thinks about this.

Totally agree. Also relevant to this is her reaction to Stannis' letter about her incest: she really does convince herself of things.

Quote

Cersei turned on him in green-eyed fury. "Are you utterly witless? Did you read what he says? The boy Joffrey, he calls him. And he dares to accuse me of incest, adultery, and treason!"
Only because you're guilty. It was astonishing to see how angry Cersei could wax over accusations she knew perfectly well to be true. If we lose the war, she ought to take up mummery, she has a gift for it. 

[Alester Florent]

4 hours ago, Landis said:

Happy to do a close reading, if that is something you are interested in. Otherwise, I'll lay off and let you be.

You may want to read GRRM's comments on that scene, too...

 

[Landis]

10 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

You may want to read GRRM's comments on that scene, too...

 

Geeeeeez, appreciate that share, Alester Florent!

RIP me for giving him far more credit than deserved where this character is concerned, evidently. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Landis said:

Geeeeeez, appreciate that share, Alester Florent!

RIP me for giving him far more credit than deserved where this character is concerned, evidently. 

Care to elaborate?

[Adaneth]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Care to elaborate?

I think she meant that she read that scene as a rape in the books too, while Martin didn't intend to.

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Adaneth said:

I think she meant that she read that scene as a rape in the books too, while Martin didn't intend to.

That’s what I understood from their post but wanted to double check. I absolutely see the scene in the abomination as rape - b/c it very obviously was. At the same time, there’s no way I can say the same for the scene in the book. It wasn’t written as rape, and doesn’t read as rape; no conflict here between the author’s intention and execution.