maesternewton Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 (edited) Let's say, Rhaenyra's 3 sons are trueborn. Somehow, she managed to have legitimate children with Laenor. Due to not having the bastard allegations, Rhaenyra's boys are not given dragon eggs but claim the older dragons like Vermithor and Sliverwing. She also doesn't have beef with Criston Cole, and he is still her supporter. She is the perfect heir, spends her time in King's Landing, does royal progresses, basically she is Jaehaerys with teats. When Viserys dies, she is in King's Landing. What would the Greens do in this scenario? Edited January 25 by maesternewton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 6 hours ago, maesternewton said: Let's say, Rhaenyra's 3 sons are trueborn. Somehow, she managed to have legitimate children with Laenor. Due to not having the bastard allegations, Rhaenyra's boys are not given dragon eggs but claim the older dragons like Vermithor and Sliverwing. She is the perfect heir, spends her time in King's Landing, does royal progresses, basically she is Jaehaerys with teats. When Viserys dies, she is in King's Landing. What would the Greens do in this scenario? That scenario is so far removed from what we get, and starts so much earlier, that it's hard to imagine a Green faction even developing in the same way. SaffronLady, Floki of the Ironborn, James Steller and 2 others 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 7 hours ago, maesternewton said: Let's say, Rhaenyra's 3 sons are trueborn. Somehow, she managed to have legitimate children with Laenor. Due to not having the bastard allegations, Rhaenyra's boys are not given dragon eggs but claim the older dragons like Vermithor and Sliverwing. She is the perfect heir, spends her time in King's Landing, does royal progresses, basically she is Jaehaerys with teats. When Viserys dies, she is in King's Landing. What would the Greens do in this scenario? They do nothing. They already lost when the babies were legitimate and got the big dragons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daena the Defiant Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 in your scenario, Rhaenyra is in an amazingly strong position, and if the Hightower family and Alicent's children do revolt (because of some residual "but a woman cannot rule!" resistence) they'd probably be squashed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aejohn the Conqueroo Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 If things were different, they definitely wouldn't be the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 22 hours ago, maesternewton said: Let's say, Rhaenyra's 3 sons are trueborn. Rhaenyra's heirs being trueborn has nothing to do with the Dance. And it's a topic that upsets far more the fandom than it does the characters. For a fandom so harsh on Cat, it seems her prejudice towards bastards has really seeped in. 22 hours ago, maesternewton said: Rhaenyra's boys are not given dragon eggs but claim the older dragons like Vermithor and Sliverwing. Dragon eggs are given to the Targ princes. 22 hours ago, maesternewton said: She is the perfect heir, spends her time in King's Landing, does royal progresses, basically she is Jaehaerys with teats. When Viserys dies, she is in King's Landing. Given that she's well liked enough at the beginning of the conflict i don't see this as an issue. The Greens would do the exact same they did, except if they are succesful, they'd control Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra was not rebelled against because she was a bad ruler, people didn't join the Greens because they feared. They did due to a) sexism b) loyalty with greens in KL (Hightower/Lannisters) c) marriage promises. So honestly, i'm in the minority here, i do not think a lot would change if at all. The only thing that could have swung the Dance one way or another is if Viserys died 10 years earlier or after, that'd mean that most of Rhaenyra's support among the Lords would still remain the strongest (Boremund Baratheon being alive is a game changer) or is totally dead and Aegon can sweep in. BlackLightning and Hippocras 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maesternewton Posted January 25 Author Share Posted January 25 15 hours ago, frenin said: Rhaenyra's heirs being trueborn has nothing to do with the Dance. And it's a topic that upsets far more the fandom than it does the characters. For a fandom so harsh on Cat, it seems her prejudice towards bastards has really seeped in. Rhaenyra's heirs being bastards is the reason why they were betrothed to Rhaena and Baela, in order to keep the support of the Velaryons. If they are not bastards, it means they are not betrothed and marriage alliances can be made when the Dance occurs. 15 hours ago, frenin said: Dragon eggs are given to the Targ princes. That became a tradition because of the Strong boys. The Greens were whispering that they were bastards, so Viserys decreed that they be given dragon eggs. If there is no whispering of them being bastards, then they don't get dragon eggs in their cradles. 15 hours ago, frenin said: Given that she's well liked enough at the beginning of the conflict i don't see this as an issue. The Greens would do the exact same they did, except if they are succesful, they'd control Rhaenyra. Tbf, the chances of them succeeding are much smaller if Rhaenyra is in King's Landing. The Captain of the Gold Cloaks before Luthor Largent was a supporter of Rhaenyra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willam Stark Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 They wouldn't do anything against Rhaenyra, too dangerous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 12 hours ago, maesternewton said: Rhaenyra's heirs being bastards is the reason why they were betrothed to Rhaena and Baela, in order to keep the support of the Velaryons. In the show? Yes. In the books? No, not at all. It happened simply because she and Laena were gyal pals. 12 hours ago, maesternewton said: If they are not bastards, it means they are not betrothed and marriage alliances can be made when the Dance occurs. She has two sons who were not betrothed at all. 12 hours ago, maesternewton said: That became a tradition because of the Strong boys. Not true. This was a tradition started by Princess Rhaena (King Jaeharys's sister) 12 hours ago, maesternewton said: The Greens were whispering that they were bastards, so Viserys decreed that they be given dragon eggs. If there is no whispering of them being bastards, then they don't get dragon eggs in their cradles. Mo, it was by then customary for princes to be given eggs. 12 hours ago, maesternewton said: Tbf, the chances of them succeeding are much smaller if Rhaenyra is in King's Landing. Sure but the payoff is far greater. All or nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaffronLady Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 If we're really talking about pulling off a coup d'etat, could we consider the little detail of, you know, the Greens (if they even form) have to face Caraxes(folding Daemon in via marriage with one of Rhaenyra's sons and one of his daughters) + Vermithor/Silverwing + Meleys + Sheepstealer/Grey Ghost + Seasmoke? Even if Aemond still gets Vhagar, granny could only take on so many adult dragons at once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maesternewton Posted January 27 Author Share Posted January 27 On 1/26/2024 at 12:11 AM, frenin said: In the show? Yes. In the books? No, not at all. It happened simply because she and Laena were gyal pals. Lol, unless there is a serious need, it's very unusual for children who are around 4 to 6 years to be betrothed to one another, even in Westeros. Friendship doesn't even explain that urgency or need to announce so early. Especially betrothing not just one child, but both Jacaerys and Lucerys to Baela and Rhaena. Please, it was not even primarily because of their friendship but because of their bastardry. Betrothing Jaca and Luke to Baela and Rhaena kept the loyalty of Rhaenys and Corlys. This doesn't need to be spelt out when it's quite clear. On 1/26/2024 at 12:11 AM, frenin said: She has two sons who were not betrothed at all. Exactly, which goes back to my above point that betrothing Jace and Luke to Baela and Rhaena was done to early to just be because of "friendship." Anyways, Aegon and Viserys were literally young and stood to inherit nothing. At least with Luke he stands to inheriy Driftmark. On 1/26/2024 at 12:11 AM, frenin said: Not true. This was a tradition started by Princess Rhaena (King Jaeharys's sister) It was started by Rhaena, but it became a practiced tradition because of the Strong boys. F&B and the wiki literally state so. Quote There were more dragons than ever before as well, and several of the she-dragons were regularly producing clutches of eggs. Not all of these eggs hatched, but many did, and it became customary for the fathers and mothers of newborn princelings to place a dragon’s egg in their cradles, following a tradition that Princess Rhaena had begun many years before; the children so blessed invariably bonded with the hatchlings to become dragonriders Quote During the reign of King Viserys I Targaryen, it became truly customary to place a dragon's egg in the cradle of a newborn child. Before the Strong boys, it was done sparingly, but after the Strong boys it was always done whenever a Targaryen was born. On 1/26/2024 at 12:11 AM, frenin said: Mo, it was by then customary for princes to be given eggs. Again. F&B literally disagress with you. Quote Whatever the truth of these allegations, there was never any doubt that King Viserys still meant for his daughter to follow him upon the Iron Throne, and her sons to follow her in turn. By royal decree, each of the Velaryon boys was presented with a dragon’s egg whilst in the cradle. Those who doubted the paternity of Rhaenyra’s sons whispered that the eggs would never hatch, but the birth in turn of three young dragons gave the lie to their words. The Strong boys were given dragon eggs in their cradles because of the rumors of them being bastards/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 47 minutes ago, maesternewton said: Lol, unless there is a serious need, it's very unusual for children who are around 4 to 6 years to be betrothed to one another, even in Westeros. Friendship doesn't even explain that urgency or need to announce so early. There is little point to argue when you are making up things don't you think? 48 minutes ago, maesternewton said: Exactly, which goes back to my above point that betrothing Jace and Luke to Baela and Rhaena was done to early to just be because of "friendship." What? Laena didn't have more children. 49 minutes ago, maesternewton said: It was started by Rhaena, but it became a practiced tradition because of the Strong boys. F&B and the wiki literally state so. False that it is never said, neither literally nor figuratively, it simply says that eggs were given to the kids and that they hatched which to them meant they were legit. 51 minutes ago, maesternewton said: Before the Strong boys, it was done sparingly, but after the Strong boys it was always done whenever a Targaryen was born. You're literally making shit up. Where does it say that it was done sparignly before the Strong boys? It says that it started been done during the reign of Viserys, which means that the first who'd get the egg would Viserys' children. 53 minutes ago, maesternewton said: The Strong boys were given dragon eggs in their cradles because of the rumors of them being bastards/ I'm sorry but that it is not what the text says. That it is a fallacy. 55 minutes ago, maesternewton said: By royal decree, each of the Velaryon boys was presented with a dragon’s egg whilst in the cradle Doesn't say here that he did to quell the rumors. 55 minutes ago, maesternewton said: Those who doubted the paternity of Rhaenyra’s sons whispered that the eggs would never hatch, but the birth in turn of three young dragons gave the lie to their words. It does say here that those who were already doubting the bastardry used that decree to dogpile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maesternewton Posted January 27 Author Share Posted January 27 39 minutes ago, frenin said: There is little point to argue when you are making up things don't you think? If you expect the books to tell you everything, instead of deducing the implicit point yourself, then it's not my fault you fail to comprehend it. F&B states Rhaenyra and Laena were friends, it doesn't state they betrothed their children to each other because of that! When you remove the fact that the Strong boys are bastards, then it makes sense for the reason to be friendship, when that fact is in the equation then it doesn't. If you don't get that simple reasoning, then it's not my fault. 39 minutes ago, frenin said: What? Laena didn't have more children. Read my statement again, I said the fact that Rhaenyra didn't betroth Aegon and Viserys when they were young, shows that something pushed her to betrothed Jacaerys and Lucerys to Baela and Rhaena at such young ages, and it was not friendship. 40 minutes ago, frenin said: False that it is never said, neither literally nor figuratively, it simply says that eggs were given to the kids and that they hatched which to them meant they were legit. Did you read the quote text from F&B and Wiki or should I post it again for you. Quote Many consider the reign of King Viserys I to represent the apex of Targaryen power in Westeros. Beyond a doubt, there were more lords and princes claiming the blood of the dragon than at any period before or since. Though the Targaryens had continued their traditional practice of marrying brother to sister, uncle to niece, and cousin to cousin wherever possible, there had also been important matches outside the royal family, the fruit of which would play important roles in the war to come. There were more dragons than ever before as well, and several of the she-dragons were regularly producing clutches of eggs. Not all of these eggs hatched, but many did, and it became customary for the fathers and mothers of newborn princelings to place a dragon’s egg in their cradles, following a tradition that Princess Rhaena had begun many years before; the children so blessed invariably bonded with the hatchlings to become dragonriders. The text literally says it truly customary to place eggs in the cradle of Targaryens during the era of Viserys. Quote During the reign of King Viserys I Targaryen, it became truly customary to place a dragon's egg in the cradle of a newborn child. And here is the wiki, in the most simplest of terms, stating the same thing! 40 minutes ago, frenin said: You're literally making shit up. Where does it say that it was done sparignly before the Strong boys? It says that it started been done during the reign of Viserys, which means that the first who'd get the egg would Viserys' children. Good lord. None of Viserys children got dragon eggs in their cradle, that is never mentioned once in F&B. It's only after the Strong boys that we hear about Aegon II's children being given dragon eggs in their cradle which hatched into dragons! And Jaehaerys I also didn't put dragon eggs into the cradle of everyone of his children. He only put dragon eggs in Daenerys and Aemon's cradle. So yes, it was done sparingly before the Strong boys. 40 minutes ago, frenin said: I'm sorry but that it is not what the text says. That it is a fallacy. Did you even read F&B? Quote The whispering began again. Amongst the greens, it was an article of faith that the father of Rhaenyra’s sons was not her husband, Laenor, but her champion, Harwin Strong. Mushroom says as much in his Testimony and Grand Maester Mellos hints at it, whilst Septon Eustace raises the rumors only to dismiss them. Whatever the truth of these allegations, there was never any doubt that King Viserys still meant for his daughter to follow him upon the Iron Throne, and her sons to follow her in turn. By royal decree, each of the Velaryon boys was presented with a dragon’s egg whilst in the cradle. It literally right there, the implicit point that Viserys gave the Strong boys dragon eggs because of the rumors of them being bastards. 43 minutes ago, frenin said: t does say here that those who were already doubting the bastardry used that decree to dogpile. Because they were already whispering that Rhaenyra's sons were bastards, that's why he ordered those eggs to be put in their cradles! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 On 1/23/2024 at 3:02 PM, maesternewton said: Let's say, Rhaenyra's 3 sons are trueborn. Somehow, she managed to have legitimate children with Laenor. Due to not having the bastard allegations, Rhaenyra's boys are not given dragon eggs but claim the older dragons like Vermithor and Sliverwing. She also doesn't have beef with Criston Cole, and he is still her supporter. She is the perfect heir, spends her time in King's Landing, does royal progresses, basically she is Jaehaerys with teats. When Viserys dies, she is in King's Landing. What would the Greens do in this scenario? Bad calls and perhaps tactical mistakes caused her reign to be brief but that war was easily winnable for Rhaenyra. It wasn’t mistakes at the beginning but bad calls later in the dance that brought her down. Preparations were not the problem. Sticking to the objective, staying consistent, and leaving personal feelings out of the planning would have given her what she wanted. maesternewton 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 20 hours ago, maesternewton said: If you expect the books to tell you everything, instead of deducing the implicit point yourself, then it's not my fault you fail to comprehend it. What can i say, when you inject your headcanons, it's very much to argue. If you want to believe it was such an issue even tho this is not even hinted. There's little we can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 On 1/25/2024 at 10:36 AM, maesternewton said: That became a tradition because of the Strong boys. No, Rhaena, daughter of Aenys was the one to start this tradition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maesternewton Posted February 1 Author Share Posted February 1 On 1/30/2024 at 9:26 AM, Hippocras said: No, Rhaena, daughter of Aenys was the one to start this tradition. Yes, it was started by Rhaena, but it became customary because of the Strong boys. Before the Strong boys, it was done sparingly, after the Strong boys every Targaryen was always given a dragon egg in their cradle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 (edited) 8 hours ago, maesternewton said: Yes, it was started by Rhaena, but it became customary because of the Strong boys. Before the Strong boys, it was done sparingly, after the Strong boys every Targaryen was always given a dragon egg in their cradle. Rhaena started the tradition, according to legend, by placing an egg on the cradles of Jaehaerys and Alyssane, on years 34 and 36. In the next generation, Jaehaerys put an egg on Aemon's cradle on 55. And then, it's not longer done with the rest of the children born during Jaehaery's reign (not the rest of his sons, not his grandchildren, and not with Rhaenyra). I think this pattern is very telling that there was a conscious policy by Jaehaerys to avoid that too many collateral lines have access to dragons. It's also woth noting that Elissa Farman had stolen the dragon eggs around the time of Aemon's birth. In other words, I don't think that Rhaenyra's boys were given dragon eggs to counter "bastard allegations". I think that it's just that Viserys I had a much more relaxed attitude towards the proliferation of dragons that his grandfather had. And even in that case, Jaehaerys himself had given his heir presumptive an egg at birth, so it's only logical that Jacaerys was given one (as he was expected, at birth, to eventually become king). On 1/27/2024 at 3:08 PM, maesternewton said: None of Viserys children got dragon eggs in their cradle, that is never mentioned once in F&B. The fact that it's not mentioned doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Aegon II could have had Sunfyre's egg placed in his craddle (he is his first rider, from an early age). We don't know. And with little Daeron, we know that he already had a dragon at 6, before he could ride it, so I'd say there's a strong likelihood that he was given an egg at birth. On 1/27/2024 at 3:08 PM, maesternewton said: When you remove the fact that the Strong boys are bastards, then it makes sense for the reason to be friendship, when that fact is in the equation then it doesn't. We shouldn't take for granted that Rhaenyra's sons are bastards. It's something that it's made obvious in the show, but it's much more muddy in the books (when we don't even have descriptions of Rodrik Arryn and Harwin Strong). Also, the marriage alliences betwen Rhaenyra and Laena's children make a lot of sense regardless of the boys status. It's not only that Laena and Rhaenyra are friends, but the fact that those marriages unite three different dragon-riding lines competing for the Iron Throne: Rhaeyra's (Viserys' chosen heir), Daemon's (Viserys' heir apparent for many years) and the Velaryons (who felt that had been cheated in the Great Council). It also is in keeping with the tradition of Targaryen kings having Velaryon wives when no sister is available. I think that politically those marriages were a no-brainer, and would have occurred even if no one had questioned the legitimacy of Rhaenyra's sons. On 1/24/2024 at 7:26 PM, frenin said: The Greens would do the exact same they did, except if they are succesful, they'd control Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra was not rebelled against because she was a bad ruler, people didn't join the Greens because they feared. They did due to a) sexism b) loyalty with greens in KL (Hightower/Lannisters) c) marriage promises. So honestly, i'm in the minority here, i do not think a lot would change if at all. I think that a key aspect to consider is that, in the scenario proposed by the OP, "She also doesn't have beef with Criston Cole, and he is still her supporter. " I think Cole is key in the ability to launch the coup. Without him, the greens can't keep the secrecy around Viserys' death, and can't make the coronation ceremony. The Green Council would be much more balanced, an a real opposition could be organized from within the city. He is called the "kingmaker" for a reason. Edited February 1 by The hairy bear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willam Stark Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 1 hour ago, The hairy bear said: It's something that it's made obvious in the show, but it's much more muddy in the books (when we don't even have descriptions of Rodrik Arryn and Harwin Strong). We have the description of Laenor, their alledged father, who had Valyrian features just like Rhaenyra. In that case, they couldn't have had brown-haired children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Willam Stark said: We have the description of Laenor, their alledged father, who had Valyrian features just like Rhaenyra. In that case, they couldn't have had brown-haired children. They could, if Rodrik Arryn (Rhaenyra's grandfather) was brown-haired. Another potential source for brown hair could have been Corlys' wife (Laenor's grandmother). We don't even know to which family she belonged to. And there's Rhaeny's Baratheon ancestry to consider. ETA: the paternity issue in the books would also be less murky if Harwin Strong had been described as brown-haired. But he hasn't. And we don't know the hair colour of anyone from House Strong. In fact, the Strongs are usually described as large men, and none of Rhaenyra's children are. We have been told that Rhaenyra's sons didn't resemble her or Laenor's hair, not that they resembled Harwin in any way. Edited February 1 by The hairy bear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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