UK politics - not inspiring but effective

[Heartofice]

11 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

The fact that left-leaning media has significantly less need to resort to lies and mis-representation of facts should be somewhat instructive to those of a more right-leaning persuasion. That perhaps objective truth is more often on the side of left/progressive perspectives and perhaps one might reconsider one's own leanings in light of the direction objective truth seems to point towards. 

 

 

Really it depends what your comparison is. Compared to the shit spouted by the Daily Mail and Fox then yes Left leaning media is a lot closer to the truth. That also doesn't mean it's 'the truth' either. While right leaning media might quite often resort to sensationalism and often outright lies, it also doesn't mean everything it says is incorrect or that the alternative is to take everything from left wing media as gospel, never to be questioned. 

If you want to try and get some sort of accurate picture then the point is to put in the work and look at sources from various sides and try and work out where the actual truth is. 

[mormont]

1 hour ago, BigFatCoward said:

The left thinks the bbc gives the right an easy ride and the right think the bbc is woke as fuck. They are clearly doing something correct. 

This is a fallacy I've been tackling in my professional life recently. It makes you feel better when you're being criticised. But most of the time, when both sides are saying you're wrong, you're clearly doing something wrong.

(Not a comment on the BBC in particular. I just find this notion of 'we must be doing something right if we've pissed everyone off' to be dumb and complacent.)

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, mormont said:

(Not a comment on the BBC in particular. I just find this notion of 'we must be doing something right if we've pissed everyone off' to be dumb and complacent.)

Musk says this all the time, and he's both not correct (he pisses off one side more than the other) and an obvious idiotic thing; you can say stupid shit that gets everyone annoyed at you. 

[Spockydog]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

I imagine that isn’t revelatory to most people, but it still surprises me how often members of this board demonstrate a clear inability to consider the other side of an argument, almost as if they really do only consume The Guardian and Channel 4.

Wtf is this shit? 

The other side of the argument? 

What, like supporting the demonization of refugees and Trans folks and the poor? Supporting the systematic dismantling of the NHS and other essential public services? And all the rest of the shit we have to endure under the cover and succour of a compliant and mendacious media machine? 

Yeah, it is frankly AMAZEBALLS that more of us aren't more right wing. Amazing that there are so few of us, who, no matter the subject, always manage to find a way to take the moral low ground. 

Yeah, let's all be be more like that.

Edited March 1 by Spockydog

[Heartofice]

3 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Wtf is this shit? 

The other side of the argument? 

What, like supporting the demonization of refugees and Trans folks and the poor? Supporting the systematic dismantling of the NHS and other essential public services? And all the rest of the shit we have to endure under the cover and succour of a compliant and mendacious media machine? 

Yeah, it is frankly AMAZEBALLS that more of us aren't more right wing. Amazing that there are so few of us, who, no matter the subject, always manage to find a way to take the moral low ground. 

Yeah, let's all be be more like that.

lol! Thanks for doing the work for me.

[Spockydog]

Mate, trust me, all your fetishes have been fully considered and well and truly rejected. 

I don't need some tax dodging press baron to give me lessons in morality and basic human decency. 

But you do you. 

Edited March 1 by Spockydog

[Craving Peaches]

BBC coverage of the Scottish Independence Referendum was suspect.

[Heartofice]

Seriously though if you think there is only side of the debate on the issues you’ve labelled above or that you think the way you have presented it is an accurate portrayal of those issues then you have absolutely shown me that you are stuck in a bubble.

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

The other side of the argument? 

Bothsideism is bollocks and lazy af. If one person tells you it's raining and another tells you it's sunny, you shouldn't present both views but rather look out the fucking window and find out which one is telling the truth.

[Spockydog]

5 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Seriously though if you think there is only side of the debate on the issues you’ve labelled above or that you think the way you have presented it is an accurate portrayal of those issues then you have absolutely shown me that you are stuck in a bubble.

I am fully aware there are two sides to every debate. 

What YOU need to understand is that I will always come down on the side that does least harm. 

The least harm to things that actual matter, such as climate change, and most definitely not some bleatings about the erosion of white English culture or some shit. 

[Many-Faced Votary]

10 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Bothsideism is bollocks and lazy af. If one person tells you it's raining and another tells you it's sunny, you shouldn't present both views but rather look out the fucking window and find out which one is telling the truth.

And if you want to see the very real results of bothesidesism, look no further than the United States. This exact phenomenon, combined with no fact-checking, pushback, or follow-up questions from so-called journalists, has allowed the Republican Party to race further and further to the right and drag the Democratic Party behind them -- to the extent that the GOP has rejected democracy and the rule of law, and are fully embracing fascism, in such a blatant way that nevertheless goes completely unexamined in the media apparatus here.

[Heartofice]

7 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

I am fully aware there are two sides to every debate. 

What YOU need to understand is that I will always come down on the side that does least harm. 

The least harm to things that actual matter, such as climate change, and most definitely not some bleatings about the erosion of white English culture or some shit. 

You have just demonstrated above that you aren’t aware of the other sides, your only understanding of the counter argument of any of the above is the most extreme caricatured version. 
 

This is EXACTLY my point. 

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

most extreme caricatured version.

What's the least caricatured version then? The one that tries to back itself up with a veneer of credibility via misleading statistics?

[Craving Peaches]

Please don't be too harsh on the Daily Star though. I know it is a great source of amusement for many. One time the front page news was about how many loom bands someone put round their dong before disaster struck.

[Kalbear]

12 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Please don't be too harsh on the Daily Star though. I know it is a great source of amusement for many. One time the front page news was about how many loom bands someone put round their dong before disaster struck.

Sure, but what about the other side

[Spockydog]

Lol. Anyway, that's enough sport for me for one evening. 

Edited March 1 by Spockydog

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

Sure, but what about the other side

Potential Guinness World Record?

[Heartofice]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

What's the least caricatured version then? The one that tries to back itself up with a veneer of credibility via misleading statistics?

That there might be a debate about the number of illegal migrants into this country, how valid many of their claims are? That the numbers are clearly far higher than they should be? 

That the gender critical argument is actually not about demonising trans people at all, that there might be a number of considerations that need to be rather than blindly following the gender ideological position that has been hoisted on our society and correct some of the mistakes made over the past few years.

That the NHS isn’t the best health service in the world, and that the way to deal with that is not just a matter of adding more money and that other systems might need to be looked at. Suggesting that isn’t ‘dismantling the NHS’.

Point being, in all the above topics I reckon I could give a pretty good stab at steelmanning the position on both sides of the debate. I highly doubt Spocky or any other of the cheering crowd on this thread could do the same, because they literally believe anyone who disagrees with their position is.. well basically evil. They are completely stuck in a bubble and have no interest in challenging their own ideas on any of these topics. 

 

[Many-Faced Votary]

3 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

They are completely stuck in a bubble and have no interest in challenging their own ideas on any of these topics. 

Funny you should say that, considering that you're adopting the Tory framing on all three of your examples and trying to portray them as worthy of debate through the right-wing narrative that you uncritically accept.

Sorry, but you don't get to do that and then pretend that staking a spot in the center of, for instance, "trans rights are human rights" (sorry that you find this so objectionable) and "let's vilify and genocide trans people" (sorry that you don't find this objectionable) is a moral and rational accomplishment.

[Craving Peaches]

20 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

That there might be a debate about the number of illegal migrants into this country, how valid many of their claims are? That the numbers are clearly far higher than they should be? 

Define 'should be' in relation to these numbers please. Because that sounds like a completely subjective thing, and therefore you are complaining that the government is letting in too many people because it is more than you want let in.

There's always a debate, no one is denying this, but one side is more credible than the other from what I've seen when you are presenting it as a binary argument. The 'other side' seems to be composed of the EDL, people who think the UK is a 'borderless economic zone', people who spew fake statistics about the average number of children immigrants have, etc. There are little in the way of moderates going 'I think we should let fewer people in because we can't take care of everyone here already'. Everything is heavily polarised. The Government wants to legislate against reality to address this potential issue in a very cost-inefficient manner which breaches its outstanding obligations under international law. And so on...

20 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

blindly following the gender ideological position that has been hoisted on our society

What ideological position? I don't recall any such position being hoisted on myself or anyone I know. I have never even seen/heard people talk this way outside of the internet or news.

20 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

correct some of the mistakes made over the past few years.

Such as?

20 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

and that the way to deal with that is not just a matter of adding more money and that other systems might need to be looked at. Suggesting that isn’t ‘dismantling the NHS’.

Of course not. Who here made that equation? Unless by 'looked at' you mean privatised and devolved into the American model, or whatever May was planning in that deal with Trump, which I would consider a dismantling of the NHS.

20 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I highly doubt Spocky or any other of the cheering crowd on this thread could do the same, because they literally believe anyone who disagrees with their position is.. well basically evil. They are completely stuck in a bubble and have no interest in challenging their own ideas on any of these topics. 

I think that's a rather harsh and uncharitable view, and not an accurate depiction. It is hard to view the other side seriously, when for the most part, its arguments lack credibility and are based on appealing to emotions/playing on people's fears.

Edited March 1 by Craving Peaches