3 Body Problem (Show Spoilers Only)

[House Cambodia]

6 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Sure, but there are limits. Right now it's like they have brought some absolute random guy off the street, a guy who can barely tie his own shoelaces, to solve the problems of the planet. That does stretch the realms of believability somewhat.

Yeah, I'm homing in on specifics, but I fully agree and have said above that D&D have done a fairly poor job with characterisation. Given GoT seasons 7 and 8, it's not particularly surprising. The books are strong enough to keep me watching the TV show, though.

[Zorral]

What Chinese Outrage Over ‘3 Body Problem’ Says About China
The Netflix series showcases one of the country’s most successful works of culture, a rare cultural export. Instead, social media is condemning it.
By Li Yuan

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/08/business/3-body-problem-china-reaction.html

Quote

 

.... If their main complaint about the Netflix adaptation is that the creators took too much liberty with the plot and the main characters, their other major complaint is that the opening scene about the Cultural Revolution is too truthful or too violent.

Some doubted the necessity of mentioning the political event at all. Others accused the show of exaggerating the level of violence in the struggle session.

Scholars believe that 1.5 million to eight million people died in “abnormal deaths” in the decade from 1966 to 1976, while more than 100 million Chinese were affected by the period’s upheaval.

Any discussion of the Cultural Revolution, a political movement that Mao Zedong started in 1966 to reassert authority by setting radical youths against those in charge, is heavily censored in China. Mr. Liu, the author, had to move the depiction of the struggle session from the beginning of the first volume to the middle because his editor was worried it couldn’t get past the censors. The English translation opened with the scene, with Mr. Liu’s approval.

“The Cultural Revolution appears because it’s essential to the plot,” Mr. Liu told my colleague Alexandra Alter in 2019. “The protagonist needs to have total despair in humanity.”

With the topic increasingly taboo, it’s hard to imagine that Mr. Liu would be able to publish a book with that premise now.

In 2007, the independent filmmaker Hu Jie made a documentary about Bian Zhongyun, a vice principal of a middle school in Beijing who was among the first to be beaten to death by the Red Guards. Her husband took photos of her naked, battered body, and Mr. Hu used them at the start of his documentary. The opening scene of “3 Body Problem” reminded me a great deal of it. Mr. Hu’s movie was never publicly screened in China.

Someone on social media recently reposted an old article about Ye Qisong, one of the founders of the study of physics in modern China. In 1967, around the time that the struggle session of the series took place, Mr. Ye, who shared the same family name of the physicist in the opening scene, was detained, beaten and forced to confess crimes he didn’t commit. He went crazy and wandered the streets in Beijing, begging for food and money. The article was circulated widely online before it was censored.

 There’s a cottage industry of making videos on Chinese social media about “The Three Body Problem.” But few dare to address what led the daughter, a physicist, to invite the aliens to invade the Earth. A video with more than five million views on the website Baidu referred to the Cultural Revolution as “the red period” without explaining what happened. Another video with more than eight million views on the video site Bilibili called it “the what you know event.”

It's not surprising that fans of the book may have heard of the Cultural Revolution, but they don’t have a concrete idea about the atrocities that the Communist Party and some ordinary Chinese committed. That’s why the reactions to the Netflix series are concerning to some Chinese.

A human rights lawyer posted on WeChat that because of his age, he saw some struggle sessions when he was a child. “If I lived a bit longer, I might even get to experience it firsthand,” he wrote. “It’s not called reincarnation. It’s called history.”

 

That last applies at to us at least as much as to him.  Why authoritarians hate history and historians and work so hard to eradicate the real stuff both from education and entertainment.  Mythology always fostered always in its place.

[Corvinus85]

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I get what you are saying, but the more they do that, the more they make the show too heavy on the science, which would please the hard core science people, but alienate 90% of the audience. They are not aiming for niche appeal here. For the show to be successful, they need to cut down the science lectures.

I wonder how many people were able to wrap their head around the sophon concept. 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

16 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Exactly, we're mostly told Saul is really smart, not shown. If Jin had been picked, I would have said OK. We get to see her solve problems.

The character is totally "shown" piloting a particle accelerator when he's introduced in episode one.  He also correctly susses out that the stars winking was a "deep fake" and not some natural phenomenon.

And he knows morse code and he knows what "autonomous" means.  

[Heartofice]

4 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

The character is totally "shown" piloting a particle accelerator when he's introduced in episode one

Well he's sitting in a room using a machine in pretty much the first few minutes of the show. After that he does basically no science. 

4 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

He also correctly susses out that the stars winking was a "deep fake" and not some natural phenomenon.

That was hardly some revelatory big brain thinking. Anyone off the street could have made that guess.

4 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

And he knows morse code and he knows what "autonomous" means. 

He also has glasses.

[Rippounet]

The characterization of Saul Durand is perfect. He's quite depressed/cynical and lonely, rather self-centered, prone to addiction, doesn't bother to work too much because he doesn't really need to, can only relate to other very smart individuals, isn't too social or talkative but highly insightful... etc, etc.

He's not supposed to be smart, he's supposed to be a fucking genius. And a rather young genius would behave precisely like the character in the show. If anything, he's even too much of a typical genius.
Since it's quite on-the-nose, I'm not sure the characterization is the problem here.

[House Cambodia]

2 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

The characterization of Saul Durand is perfect. He's quite depressed/cynical and lonely, rather self-centered, prone to addiction, doesn't bother to work too much because he doesn't really need to, can only relate to other very smart individuals, isn't too social or talkative but highly insightful... etc, etc.

He's not supposed to be smart, he's supposed to be a fucking genius. And a rather young genius would behave precisely like the character in the show. If anything, he's even too much of a typical genius.
Since it's quite on-the-nose, I'm not sure the characterization is the problem here.

Interesting angle - I like it!

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=260277880482654

Literally the first scene he's in.

[Hippocras]

5 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=260277880482654

Literally the first scene he's in.

I feel like this is one of those blink and you miss it kind of things, where they tried to make every second count to the point where you have to pay attention to everything all the time. They probably figured they had covered the "Saul is an elite scientist" element with this scene, as well as showing a bit about how he thinks (trying to suss out pattens, bouncing between observation and logic).

The shots of his award (highest honour in the US for young physicists) is meant to assure us of his qualifications.

[Heartofice]

3 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

They probably figured they had covered the "Saul is an elite scientist" element with this scene, as well as showing a bit about how he thinks (trying to suss out pattens, bouncing between observation and logic).

Exactly. It really was blink and you miss it. I remembered the scene and I mentioned it, because they start the show demonstrating he is a scientist, I guess he is smart then. The problem then is that for the rest of the show they just drop most of that to leave him to muck about with his mates, chilling and hanging out with the ladies! 

[Hippocras]

42 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Exactly. It really was blink and you miss it. I remembered the scene and I mentioned it, because they start the show demonstrating he is a scientist, I guess he is smart then. The problem then is that for the rest of the show they just drop most of that to leave him to muck about with his mates, chilling and hanging out with the ladies! 

But why is that such a big problem for you? His relationship with his friends is really very key. Jin will be working directly on these problems, Auggie is dealing with a different angle on it as well (human survival) even if she is in denial of the long term problem. And he was Will's confidante as well in his last few months, and we have probably not seen the end of Will's floating brain either. So him being shown being smart and scientific is hardly the only thing they needed to show. His relationships matter very much.

[Heartofice]

4 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

But why is that such a big problem for you? His relationship with his friends is really very key. Jin will be working directly on these problems, Auggie is dealing with a different angle on it as well (human survival) even if she is in denial of the long term problem. And he was Will's confidante as well in his last few months, and we have probably not seen the end of Will's floating brain either. So him being shown being smart and scientific is hardly the only thing they needed to show. His relationships matter very much.

Because the relationships were bland and cookie cutter, so I'm not sure how much it added to the show. By the end of the series I don't care about any of the characters, I care more about the story the show is telling. So all that time spent dealing with relationship stuff seems pretty unsuccessful, especially if it took away from highlighting some of the key information that should be communicated.

[House Cambodia]

11 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

His relationships matter very much.

As a wallfacer he has to be very careful here. The sophons will surely be watching Jin and Auggie closely, so any ideas he gets from them or through conversations with them will be compromised. As a wallfacer he needs to be a loner - it's that aspect of his character that should come to the fore, not his social side.

[Hippocras]

10 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

As a wallfacer he has to be very careful here. The sophons will surely be watching Jin and Auggie closely, so any ideas he gets from them or through conversations with them will be compromised. As a wallfacer he needs to be a loner - it's that aspect of his character that should come to the fore, not his social side.

Yes, I agree. Which is why the one night stands and temporary casual relationships were informative.

But we see him as having long term and deep relationships with several key people in season 1 and even if in season 2 he barely speaks to any of them, he DOES have a very long history of very personal references with each of them, of the kind that Dr. Ye's "joke" refered to. Which means that he can draw on those older, unsupervised by the San-Ti, conversations as references that only they understand.

[House Cambodia]

1 hour ago, Hippocras said:

the kind that Dr. Ye's "joke" refered to. Which means that he can draw on those older, unsupervised by the San-Ti, conversations as references that only they understand.

Good point - I hadn't thought of Ye's 'joke'. But he does need to be careful with individuals the sophons are surely monitoring, Auggie and Jin being at the forefront. Will the San-Ti assume that Ye Wenji as head of the ETO is safe to leave unmonitored? Not sure. Generally, my hunch is that Sean needs to get the hell out of Dodge, off the radar, and if he's to make new connections, be far from prying sophon eyes.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

4 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I feel like this is one of those blink and you miss it kind of things, where they tried to make every second count to the point where you have to pay attention to everything all the time.

And this is followed by Ye's suicide, her wake, and the scene in the pub where he talks about how his project got terminated. Plus all the scientists around the world committing suicide and then his friend gets terminal cancer. 

This guys lack of productivity shouldn't be a mystery. 

Edited April 10 by Deadlines? What Deadlines?

[Darryk]

I found it mostly intriguing.

Really like the premise and most of the scenes involving the aliens.

Found some of the characters really lacking in personality though. Loved Benedict Wong's cop and Liam Cunningham's character, but Auggie just had the same miserable expression on her face throughout the whole series.

Thought there was a lot of repetitive dialogue as well.

It has piqued my interest in reading the book.

[Hippocras]

There is one scene that has me puzzled. I can't quite figure out why it was there (not that I minded it). Watching this show I could in fact say with precision the intention of every moment or word of dialogue. Just not this one. And I am not the type to automatically jump to the conclusion that it must be pointless if I can't quickly understand the point; I have some humility. Maybe someone here has an idea of where that scene led us and why.

 

It is the scene where Will gets a visit from his sister at the hospital. She asks him for whatever money his mom left him, which is unlikely to be all that much and is irrelevant of course to Will, who already spent most of the money from Jack on a star and is dying anyway.

I have so many questions about that scene. Such as, if project staircase failed and Will is floating off into endless nothing, why would his relationship with his sister matter? Why does any money she gets from him matter?

If this was a soap opera, they might use the scene to set up some cheap drama where Jin's ownership of the star is contested. But I doubt the show has much time for that sort of thing, and i doubt its importance to the narrative. So.... any other ideas?

[Rippounet]

4 hours ago, Hippocras said:

If this was a soap opera, they might use the scene to set up some cheap drama where Jin's ownership of the star is contested. But I doubt the show has much time for that sort of thing, and i doubt its importance to the narrative. So.... any other ideas?

Wade says Will is perfect for the mission because he's not doing it out of idealism. The scene with his family helps explain why, by establishing that his family are dickheads, and that he doesn't give a fuck about them - nor, in all likelihood, about humanity as a whole.
The same applies to Saul: he's a good Wallfacer because he's not invested in the survival of humanity.

The bigger question, which is at the heart of the show, is whether humanity deserves to be saved. Almost all characters struggle with that question at some point - albeit often indirectly.
Paradoxically, the people who are heavily invested in defending humanity, like Jin and Wade, are easy to understand for the San-Ti. Conversely, people like Will and Saul are wild cards, because the San-Ti can't read the human heart, which makes them both intriguing and threatening. In an inter-planetary war, what you don't understand about your enemy can prove more important than what you do understand.

Imho, Cixin Liu's work is heavily metaphorical. The presence of the cultural revolution and Rachel Carson's Silent Spring is no accident, because it establishes that we are a violent, primitive species. That's why the main characters' interpersonal relationships matter, because they show that humanity should not be reduced to its worst aspects - and that we may be worth saving after all. But it's also stuff that the San-Ti can find impossible to understand. It's easy to find some scenes a bit boring if you forget that the Sophons can see them too ; if you watch parts of the show as an alien would, it should lead you to metaphysical questions about the human nature.
It's also why Saul wanted to meet his would-be killer btw: the point is for the viewer to also wonder about what drives us to violence. Auggie rejecting the logic of "the end justifies the means" is also worth thinking about.
It's all easy to overlook because it all looks like common human behavior and most of us think we know the answers to "deep" questions about what drives us to make our choices. The show challenges us to reconsider what we think we know.

Imho, in this first season, the San-Ti actually represent both the environmental crisis (which could in fact drive our species to extinction in the coming centuries) and totalitarianism. Like many authors, Liu uses science-fiction to talk about current problems without being censored.
That's also why I don't share criticisms of Liu for his political "positions": his work is actually incredibly subversive, so he has to be really careful with what he says.
I'm pretty confident the man has no love for the CCP.
 

Edited April 12 by Rippounet

[JGP]

2 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Wade says Will is perfect for the mission because he's not doing it out of idealism. The scene with his family helps explain why, by establishing that his family are dickheads, and that he doesn't give a fuck about them - nor, in all likelihood, about humanity as a whole.
The same applies to Saul: he's a good Wallfacer because he's not invested in the survival of humanity.

The bigger question, which is at the heart of the show, is whether humanity deserves to be saved. Almost all characters struggle with that question at some point - albeit often indirectly.
Paradoxically, the people who are heavily invested in defending humanity, like Jin and Wade, are easy to understand for the San-Ti. Conversely, people like Will and Saul are wild cards, because the San-Ti can't read the human heart, which makes them both intriguing and threatening. In an inter-planetary war, what you don't understand about your enemy can prove more important than what you do understand.

Imho, Cixin Liu's work is heavily metaphorical. The presence of the cultural revolution and Rachel Carson's Silent Spring is no accident, because it establishes that we are a violent, primitive species. That's why the main characters' interpersonal relationships matter, because they show that humanity should not be reduced to its worst aspects - and that we may be worth saving after all. But it's also stuff that the San-Ti can find impossible to understand. It's easy to find some scenes a bit boring if you forget that the Sophons can see them too ; if you watch parts of the show as an alien would, it should lead you to metaphysical questions about the human nature.
It's also why Saul wanted to meet his would-be killer btw: the point is for the viewer to also wonder about what drives us to violence. Auggie rejecting the logic of "the end justifies the means" is also worth thinking about.
It's all easy to overlook because it all looks like common human behavior and most of us think we know the answers to "deep" questions about what drives us to make our choices. The show challenges us to reconsider what we think we know.

Imho, in this first season, the San-Ti actually represent both the environmental crisis (which could in fact drive our species to extinction in the coming centuries) and totalitarianism. Like many authors, Liu uses science-fiction to talk about current problems without being censored.
That's also why I don't share criticisms of Liu for his political "positions": his work is actually incredibly subversive, so he has to be really careful with what he says.
I'm pretty confident the man has no love for the CCP.
 

 

Much of what you've said above here makes intrinsic sense, but I didn't get any of this from the show. 

The laughable reasons as to why the San-Ti aren't capable of subterfuge, all the noise about capturing the boat without damaging the conversation logs and/or data and then oh hey, let's dice it with nanothread -lots of sheesh- I just don't know. It took a while to finish it and if I'm digging a show I can crush a season in a couple days. And, there was a surprising amount of eyeroll inducing shit given it's purported to be a cerebral piece of work, so lost in translation i suppose. 

I'm going to have to read the books... if I can ever work up the interest to.

 

Edited April 12 by JGP