US Politics: Time for the Stormy season with a chance of conviction

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I have seen these as well, and I find them vile. Just as vile as the several Israelis, many of them government officials, spewing the same rhetoric. 

I think I understand the points you're making here, but at the same time it feels to me that you're engaging in a form of bothsideism similar to what we see in the media nowadays. 

Peaceful protests are one of the main tools civil society has to express itself and to try to have their voices heard. Should they be prohibited or repressed b/c of the odd 'extremist'? And keeping I mind that these individuals aren't always just people who are protesting for the same reason as the others but has more extreme views, they often are bad actors who are deliberately trying to sabotage a legal and valid movement. 

Fez expressed my concerns well above your post

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I disagree.  As bad as this has been it could have been much worse.  Consider how Israel would have behaved if Trump had been office with Netanyahu in Israel.  It can, sadly, always be worse.

Ok?  That's non responsive, counselor.  The argument wasn't that there are US administrations who would be worse on this issue than Biden, the argument I responding to was your nuanced claim that giving money and weapons to Israel somehow gives the US more influence to prevent Israel from using them.  

That is a very different argument from "Trump would have been worse."

Yes, it could be much worse. Could you please explain how giving Israel more $ and weapons is going to reduce violence in Gaza?

9 minutes ago, Fez said:

Setting aside the merits or concerns about the protests, my main issue is that protesting on campus is basically pointless and just wastes people's time. The student demands are either impossible for the universities for achieve or doable but wouldn't have any impact on Israel. They'd be much more impactful protesting at congresspersons' townhall events and outside their district offices. Or, in the case of the NYC-based students, protesting outside the mayor's office or city council; since the NYC government has much larger economic ties to Israel than any university.

The only thing you achieve protesting on campus is smug self-satisfaction. And potentially intimidate Jewish students.

I don't disagree with any of this, really.

Edited April 23 by Larry of the Lawn

[Maithanet]

7 minutes ago, Fez said:

Setting aside the merits or concerns about the protests, my main issue is that protesting on campus is basically pointless and just wastes people's time. The student demands are either impossible for the universities for achieve or doable but wouldn't have any impact on Israel. They'd be much more impactful protesting at congresspersons' townhall events and outside their district offices. Or, in the case of the NYC-based students, protesting outside the mayor's office or city council; since the NYC government has much larger economic ties to Israel than any university.

Aren't they seeking to get Columbia University (and it's considerable endowment) to divest from Israel?  If that's the case, protesting on campus seems like the place to do it. 

[Zorral]

Could Trump Go to Prison? If He Does, the Secret Service Goes, Too
Officials have had preliminary discussions about how to protect the former president in the unlikely event that he is jailed for contempt during the trial.
April 23, 2024

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/23/nyregion/trump-trial-hush-money-prison.html

Quote

 

.... Last week, as a result of the prosecution’s request, officials with federal, state and city agencies had an impromptu meeting about how to handle the situation, according to two people with knowledge of the matter.

That behind-the-scenes conversation — involving officials from the Secret Service and other relevant law enforcement agencies — focused only on how to move and protect Mr. Trump if the judge were to order him briefly jailed for contempt in a courthouse holding cell, the people said.

The far more substantial challenge — how to safely incarcerate a former president if the jury convicts him and the judge sentences him to prison rather than home confinement or probation — has yet to be addressed directly, according to some of a dozen current and former city, state and federal officials interviewed for this article.

That’s at least in part because if Mr. Trump is ultimately convicted, a drawn-out and hard-fought series of appeals, possibly all the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court, is almost a certainty. That would most likely delay any sentence for months if not longer, said several of the people, who noted that a prison sentence was unlikely. ....

 

But, if ----

Quote

 

.... Protecting Mr. Trump in a prison environment would involve keeping him separate from other inmates, as well as screening his food and other personal items, officials said. If he were to be imprisoned, a detail of agents would work 24 hours a day, seven days a week, rotating in and out of the facility, several officials said. While firearms are obviously strictly prohibited in prisons, the agents would nonetheless be armed.

Former corrections officials said there were several New York state prisons and city jails that have been closed or partly closed, leaving wings or large sections of their facilities empty and available. One of those buildings could serve to incarcerate the former president and accommodate his Secret Service protective detail. ....

 

 

[The Big Stink]

These protests are completely pointless. Nothing will change. The majority of Jewish students will feel intimidated but that's it.

The only change I can see is conservative politicians pushing for hate speech laws where you cannot criticize Israel.

A major failure of Israel is the inability to make support for Israel to appear reasonable or sincere. It's clear as day that anyone under 50 that supports Israel is either Jewish themselves or is paid to do so.

 

 

 

[Zorral]

1 minute ago, Maithanet said:

Aren't they seeking to get Columbia University (and it's considerable endowment) to divest from Israel?  If that's the case, protesting on campus seems like the place to do it. 

Damn betcha -- and both Columbia and NYU have loads invested.  This was also the case with apartheid South Africa, which also provoked many student protests, which, ultimately, were successful in their demands.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, The Big Stink said:

These protests are completely pointless. Nothing will change. The majority of Jewish students will feel intimidated but that's it.

The only change I can see is conservative politicians pushing for hate speech laws where you cannot criticize Israel.

A major failure of Israel is the inability to make support for Israel to appear reasonable or sincere. It's clear as day that anyone under 50 that supports Israel is either Jewish themselves or is paid to do so.

 

 

 

What Israel has done in Gaza is well beyond the pale.  Israel’s attacks in Gaza are what have hurt Israel in public opinion.  

[Larry of the Lawn]

Just now, The Big Stink said:

These protests are completely pointless. Nothing will change. The majority of Jewish students will feel intimidated but that's it.

The only change I can see is conservative politicians pushing for hate speech laws where you cannot criticize Israel.

A major failure of Israel is the inability to make support for Israel to appear reasonable or sincere. It's clear as day that anyone under 50 that supports Israel is either Jewish themselves or is paid to do so.

 

 

 

I'm not sure the majority of Jewish students feel intimidated but I suppose it's possible. 

Protests aren't about being a pragmatic solution.  They are what happens when pragmatic solutions fail or are ignored.  It's like putting a pot of water in a lit stove.  Eventually it's gonna boil over and make a mess.  It's a predictable consequence of doing nothing to address an injustice that many people are very aware of.

[Zorral]

3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Given that the US isn’t a direct participant… I’m not sure I understand the point of disrupting US Universities.

Silly rabbit. Very large numbers of the particularly elite campuses have students from All the Countries, and students of the heritage of All the Countries, enrolled.  Very many of them are paying the full whack as their parents or their countries are able to afford that bill, which so many of the Not Them cannot, so must take out massive loans.

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

There are protestors overtly supporting Hamas, using Hamas slogans, and claiming all Jewish Israelis are colonists who should be expelled from Israel.

Like the media you are refusing to report that these are far in the minority, and most often howled by people who are paid to do this or are simply maliciously doing so.  And often, as you are so undie wodged about STUDENTS daring to create unrest on their campuses, not even on the campuses themselves, but outside.  Why you refuse to look at the multitude of stories that explain this, who knows, unless you get all your information from television and outlets like fox.  Though the Big Legacy Blob Media runs these stories that way too, ignoring the facts, stated even over our public radio media by spokesmouths for bibi etc. that Israel has budgeted literally 3 billion dollars for a global propaganda war to change the perception that Israel is the bad guy here, and to wash away the very idea that Israel, the 'settler movement' etc., have always and are now engaged in a horrible oppression and plunder to take all the land from River to Sea for Israel as the Zionist always planned at least since the 1940's.

The students know it though, both Jewish and Muslim, and have for about two generations, while you haven't bothered to pay any attention.

Also, I am here, you are not.  And here is the most Jewish city outside of Israel.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Like the media you are refusing to report that these are far in the minority, and most often howled by people who are paid to do this or are simply maliciously doing so.  And often, as you are so undie wodged about STUDENTS daring to create unrest on their campuses, not even on the campuses themselves, but outside.  Why you refuse to look at the multitude of stories that explain this, who knows, unless you get all your information from television and outlets like fox.  Though the Big Legacy Blob Media runs these stories that way too, ignoring the facts, stated even over our public radio media by spokesmouths for bibi etc. that Israel has budgeted literally 3 billion dollars for a global propaganda war to change the perception that Israel is the bad guy here, and to wash away the very idea that Israel, the 'settler movement' etc., have always and are now engaged in a horrible oppression and plunder to take all the land from River to Sea for Israel as the Zionist always planned at least since the 1940's.

The students know it though, both Jewish and Muslim, and have for about two generations, while you haven't bothered to pay any attention.

Also, I am here, you are not.  And here is the most Jewish city outside of Israel.

Fair enough.  I have never been shy that protests aren’t my preferred method of political interaction.  While I acknowledge the right to protest.

[kissdbyfire]

27 minutes ago, The Big Stink said:

The majority of Jewish students will feel intimidated but that's it.

You mean the majority of those Jewish students who aren't part of the protests, right? Because there are many who are actively participating and marching and protesting against Israel's actions/government and have been from the get-go.

[Spockydog]

1 hour ago, The Big Stink said:

A major failure of Israel is the inability to make support for Israel to appear reasonable or sincere. It's clear as day that anyone under 50 that supports Israel is either Jewish themselves or is paid to do so.

Lol. There are plenty of non-Jewish toerags under the age of fifty gleefully cheering on the Israeli war criminals. 

 

Edited April 23 by Spockydog

[Zorral]

I dunno.  Partner's teaching this semester at NYU, and I'm doing research assistance duty, and I have not and am not seeing the Jewish or Israeli students behaving or talking as though they think they are unsafe.  The ones who feel that way are not students, it seems, but the always omnipresent associates of these people -- https://www.torahtruck.com/about/ --

who are around the school, inquiring of one and all passing by if one is Jewish and getting them to donate, sign petitions, join Torah trips to Israel and so on.  Mostly everyone ignores them, but they can get very annoying and in your face, even hostile and aggressive. So, at times the school has banned them from operating here -- and recall, the home 'campus' of NYU is not a campus at all. The closest to a campus is Washington Square Park, which is a public park, open to all.  Even when NYU is holding graduation ceremonies in a big part of it. 

 

[Fez]

36 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Aren't they seeking to get Columbia University (and it's considerable endowment) to divest from Israel?  If that's the case, protesting on campus seems like the place to do it. 

Sure. Except that falls into the "impossible" category. The student demand goes beyond stopping direct investment in Israel/Israeli companies (which the University doesn't do anyway— except building a student center in Tel Aviv that the protesters also want cancelled) and is instead that Columbia University not invest in any company that does any business with Israel or even any index fund that includes those companies. Which means they don't want the endowment fund to be invested in the stock market at all; something the university will never do.

[ljkeane]

6 minutes ago, Fez said:

Sure. Except that falls into the "impossible" category. The student demand goes beyond stopping direct investment in Israel/Israeli companies (which the University doesn't do anyway— except building a student center in Tel Aviv that the protesters also want cancelled) and is instead that Columbia University not invest in any company that does any business with Israel or even any index fund that includes those companies. Which means they don't want the endowment fund to be invested in the stock market at all; something the university will never do.

I mean I'm pretty sure if a bunch of significant institutional investors wanted to invest in a fund that didn't include companies doing business with/in Israel there would be a lot of financial institutions offering one pretty quickly. It'd be pretty inconvenient but I very much doubt it's impossible.

[Fez]

6 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

I mean I'm pretty sure if a bunch of significant institutional investors wanted to invest in a fund that didn't include companies doing business with/in Israel there would be a lot of financial institutions offering one pretty quickly. It'd be pretty inconvenient but I very much doubt it's impossible.

No, it basically is. Israel is far more integrated into the global economy than South Africa was, and the global economy is far more inter-connected than it had been. Every major company either invests in Israel, sells products to them, accepts investments from Israel, and/or directly employs Israelis (The US chamber of commerce estimates that 2,500 US companies have Israeli employees).

It'd be an enormous effort, potentially impossible, to create fund that definitely excluded all those companies. And, if the fund did exist, it'd certainly entirely be composed of small-cap companies. Small-cap index funds significantly underperform the broader market and this one would do even worse since it'd be leaving out the companies that have become successful enough to participate in multinational operations. And were the endowment to purposefully reduce its market returns to that extent, it'd violate the terms that most endowment gifts have; in other words, donors could break their endowment agreements and clawback their gifts if they wanted.

So, no, this is not a step any university would ever take. Maybe they could be convinced to stop investment in weapons manufacturers (and maybe even in funds that include them), maybe. But that'd be a major scaleback from the student demands.

[Zorral]

35 minutes ago, Fez said:

building a student center in Tel Aviv that the protesters also want cancelled

They all have schools and property in Israel.  Remember, these universities aren't about education but are real estate megacorporations. 

But not only Israel, but everywhere, including Dubai and Havana and Brasil.  Overseas programs are some of their most lucrative boondoggles programs ever.  One can participate in these programs organized by the NYU programs out of the main office of NYC without being enrolled in any program at NYC.  Partner has taught quite a few of these in Havana.

[Zorral]

Liked this take on another current event taking place in my general neighborhood right now:

On trial, Trump is a shadow of the superhero his supporters crave
Sidney Blumenthal
He wants his devotees to see the court case as trial by combat, with him as warrior. But the truth is more pathetic

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/23/trump-trial-superhero-shadow

Quote

 

Donald Trump is already in jail. He is pressed into confinement every weekday, except Wednesdays, beginning bright and early, no excuses, at 9.30 in the morning, in the dreary courtroom in Manhattan, where his impulse to mouth off wearies and worries his lawyers, and he must listen, for the first time since his father slapped him down, to an authority telling him to gag himself. He had more leeway when Fred Trump shipped the problem child to the New York military academy where Donald bullied his classmates.

Trump’s required attendance in the courtroom as a criminal defendant is his first loss of liberty. ....

 

 

[Zorral]

FYI -- The research deskers are listening to the call-in section of the NPR affiliated public radio program right now about the topic of NYU and Columbia protests in particular and the push back from the vast majority of the callers at the idea that Jewish students on the campuses are in danger and that the campuses are antisemitic is exceedingly coherent and cogent.  Many of the callers are not only Jewish residents of the city, but were part of the protests in the Vietnam era, who lay out the culpability of the universities in the programs to develop weapons to more accurately target Vietnamese villages, toxic chemicals to deforest Vietnam and so on.  The protests were pointed at the universities to stop that, and divest -- just as the protests are targeting presently.

Very interesting!

 

Edited April 23 by Zorral