Aegon the Conqueror's Blunder?

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

It seems to me that not marrying Princess Argella was kinda stupid. Yes, I get that he had dragons and could afford to spurn a lot of lords but marrying Argella would have given him a kingdom without any fuss. Assassinate Argilac and he would have had a much easier time conquering Westeros. Also when he finished conquering Westeros (except Dorne) marry his 3 different lines into each other (Targ style) and make Stormlands a principality like Dragonstone and the rest of the Stormlands would become part of the crown lands. Yes, I know it wouldn't allow for the current story to take place blah, blah, blah, im not concerned with that. Any thoughts?

[Floki of the Ironborn]

Do we know if Argilac knew that Aegon was already married? It seems like his marriage proposal was an act of desperation rather than a calculated move. 

[Jaenara Belarys]

30 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Do we know if Argilac knew that Aegon was already married? It seems like his marriage proposal was an act of desperation rather than a calculated move. 

We don't know, but considering that he's polygamous and married his sisters...if I were Argilac, it wouldn't really be that big of a logic jump to assume he might accept a third wife. 

[Green Stag]

Didn't he refuse a Hightower marriage later on?  The reason being he might insult his sister-wives IIRC.

A marriage to Argella wouldn't be the worst idea in the world, however this may have been a "foreign concept" to him - Targaryens tended to wed Targaryens when available.  He also may have thought it may alienate his power base, not just his sisters (who have dragons....), but Diftmark and Claw Isle as well.

Would the children of Aegon and Argella get dragons?  We know what happens in the future with a split power base that both have dragons.

Lastly he may have already been thinking about converting to the Seven, it seems this could cause some issues as well as it does't allow for polygamy -would the Faith accept such a marriage?

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

We don't know, but considering that he's polygamous and married his sisters...if I were Argilac, it wouldn't really be that big of a logic jump to assume he might accept a third wife. 

It would be pretty safe to assume he knew Aegon was married. They both fought in the alliance against Volantis during the century of blood. He’d be relatively foolish not to keep tabs on an erstwhile ally who has the only three dragons left in the world. After all he did “know” that Orys was a targ bastard.

The third wife play might have been a Hail Mary but it would have a reasonable chance at working. It is a lot of land for a negligible price. Aegon offering his brother as an alternative was a pretty good value that still would have brought Aegon to the table. Argilac chose poorly.

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

3 hours ago, Green Stag said:

Didn't he refuse a Hightower marriage later on?  The reason being he might insult his sister-wives IIRC.

A marriage to Argella wouldn't be the worst idea in the world, however this may have been a "foreign concept" to him - Targaryens tended to wed Targaryens when available.  He also may have thought it may alienate his power base, not just his sisters (who have dragons....), but Diftmark and Claw Isle as well.

Would the children of Aegon and Argella get dragons?  We know what happens in the future with a split power base that both have dragons.

Lastly he may have already been thinking about converting to the Seven, it seems this could cause some issues as well as it does't allow for polygamy -would the Faith accept such a marriage?

Here’s the thing, Aegon had only one child with Visenya and another with Rhaenys so I assumed the same thing would happen with Argella. If it was a girl then marry her off to Aenys or Maegor. If it’s a boy then we have another contender for the Iron Throne (probably) or someone who would help Aenys’ kids fight off Maegor. He/she would probably get a dragon egg and/or dragon. And this was before Aegon converted publicly when he was crowned as king so I don’t think the faith can do jackshit about it. 

Edited April 16 by KingoftheRiversandtheHills

[Green Stag]

8 hours ago, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

Here’s the thing, Aegon had only one child with Visenya and another with Rhaenys so I assumed the same thing would happen with Argella. If it was a girl then marry her off to Aenys or Maegor. If it’s a boy then we have another contender for the Iron Throne (probably) or someone who would help Aenys’ kids fight off Maegor. He/she would probably get a dragon egg and/or dragon. And this was before Aegon converted publicly when he was crowned as king so I don’t think the faith can do jackshit about it. 

The Faith ultimately couldn't do that much about it either way with the Targaryen dragons.  My thought it is he may have already been considering the need to eventually convert, if so a third marriage to someone likely already in the Faith could be problem for the Faith / conversion.  His total gain by joining with the Faith and playing nice with them is likely more than his gain with a marriage to Argella.

There would also be possibility of setting of a new precedent:  If the king had married one former king's / lord paramount's daughter, then what about the others?  Eventually they would all likely insist on a queen from their region / family.  Does sibling marriage and hundreds of years of tradition get tossed out?  

There is also a theory that he was sterile and not able to have children, and that Aenys and Maegor are not actually his.   If his sterility was suspected by him or some of the close advisors at court (including his sisters), this would have been another reason to discourage another marriage to an outsider as it would increase the likelihood of the secret getting out.  

[Universal Sword Donor]

14 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Do we know if Argilac knew that Aegon was already married? It seems like his marriage proposal was an act of desperation rather than a calculated move. 

Given that Aegon and Argilac had fought on the same side in the war against Volantis and he's the last remaining dragonlord in the world, its fairly safe to assume that Argilac would be aware of his marital status. He was aware of Orys' alleged bastardry, after all.

The proposed alliance is actually not a bad one on paper, it is just a matter of which land was involved. It was definitely driven by desperation but the counter proposal -- basically "give me the kingswood and massey's hook -- " was pretty fair. Argilac didn't have an heir outside of his daughter anyway, so the land would be controlled by Aegon either way, once he passed on. 

Given that the options of marriage for his daughter were likely limited to his bannermen -- he hated dornishmen and reachmen while the ironborn were taking his land -- he wasn't going to get a better offer that would help defend his lands. Orys was a noted commander and warrior at this point and the best friend of the only remaining dragonlord in the world. 

Argilac made a mistake, not Aegon.

 

 

[Green Stag]

2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Given that Aegon and Argilac had fought on the same side in the war against Volantis and he's the last remaining dragonlord in the world, its fairly safe to assume that Argilac would be aware of his marital status. He was aware of Orys' alleged bastardry, after all.

The proposed alliance is actually not a bad one on paper, it is just a matter of which land was involved. It was definitely driven by desperation but the counter proposal -- basically "give me the kingswood and massey's hook -- " was pretty fair. Argilac didn't have an heir outside of his daughter anyway, so the land would be controlled by Aegon either way, once he passed on. 

Given that the options of marriage for his daughter were likely limited to his bannermen -- he hated dornishmen and reachmen while the ironborn were taking his land -- he wasn't going to get a better offer that would help defend his lands. Orys was a noted commander and warrior at this point and the best friend of the only remaining dragonlord in the world. 

Argilac made a mistake, not Aegon.

 

 

Agreed, ultimately the mistake was Argilac's.

The dowery included lands Argilac didn't control (at least not fully), and would almost certainly put Aegon at odds with the Iron Born sooner or later - not that it mattered that much, but it seems fairly obvious Argilac was trying to put a buffer between his lands and the Iron Born.  As far as we can tell, it also didn't ensure Aegon would eventually take the rest of the Stormlands, Argilac could name someone else heir (if he didn't have a son from another marriage).  It also didn't include Argilac submitting to Aegon, and it seems Aegon had already decided / prepared to take Westeros, so would have wanted his submission.  

Argilac could have easily put himself into a position to be part of Aegon's inner circle and likely kept more of his lands.  Even if he had resisted the Targaryens, he still would likely have the Iron Born to deal with.  

[Pontius Pilate]

On 4/16/2024 at 4:05 AM, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

It seems to me that not marrying Princess Argella was kinda stupid. Yes, I get that he had dragons and could afford to spurn a lot of lords but marrying Argella would have given him a kingdom without any fuss. Assassinate Argilac and he would have had a much easier time conquering Westeros. Also when he finished conquering Westeros (except Dorne) marry his 3 different lines into each other (Targ style) and make Stormlands a principality like Dragonstone and the rest of the Stormlands would become part of the crown lands. Yes, I know it wouldn't allow for the current story to take place blah, blah, blah, im not concerned with that. Any thoughts?

I like Aegon and his family but to be fair it was insulting to offer a bastard like Orys.  

[The Wondering Wolf]

On 4/16/2024 at 4:02 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

It would be pretty safe to assume he knew Aegon was married. They both fought in the alliance against Volantis during the century of blood. He’d be relatively foolish not to keep tabs on an erstwhile ally who has the only three dragons left in the world. After all he did “know” that Orys was a targ bastard.

While I also think Argilac knew about Aegon's marriages, I don't think they fought against Volantis at the same time. Argilac joined the alliance twenty years before the battle against the Gardener king, which in turn took place before the Conquest. Depending on the precise date of the Battle of Summerfield, Aegon would have been a young boy or not even born when Argilac was in Essos.

[Jaenara Belarys]

On 4/15/2024 at 7:02 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

It would be pretty safe to assume he knew Aegon was married. They both fought in the alliance against Volantis during the century of blood. He’d be relatively foolish not to keep tabs on an erstwhile ally who has the only three dragons left in the world. After all he did “know” that Orys was a targ bastard.

 

I know that tho

On 4/15/2024 at 7:02 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

The third wife play might have been a Hail Mary but it would have a reasonable chance at working. It is a lot of land for a negligible price. Aegon offering his brother as an alternative was a pretty good value that still would have brought Aegon to the table. Argilac chose poorly.

Guess he was too old and entrenched to accept anyone above him on the totem pole, especially someone with the capability to destroy him in a day or two

[Hippocras]

I think even though it is rarely explicitly stated, magic also underpins characters' decisions, not just political considerations.

Targs married their closest available relative for a reason, one which at the time of the conquest they were still fully aware of. Later, even when there was no intentionality to it on the part of the characters, "dragons" were drawn to each other, almost compelled to join their lines.

Aegon rejected a Hightower match for himself but later chose one for Maegor. He knew something we do not when he agreed to that match. Who Ceryse's mother was might well have been a factor (a conquest match in 0-2 AC after the field of fire), but what was at least part of the decision was also the Tarth triplet-Hightower match. The Tarth triplets were of Targ descent I am quite certain (I suspect their mother was a Velaryon niece of Aegon's mother). The calculus would have been that the Maegor-Ceryse line would join with the Hightower-Tarth line in subsequent generations to produce viable dragon blooded cousins should the main royal line ever need them.

Something similar was happening in the Stormlands, where with the Orys match combined with earlier Velaryon-Tarth and Velaryon-Bar Emmon matches, a pool of second tier marriage candidates with a degree of dragon blood was being created but one without risk of usurping the Royal House.

[John Suburbs]

On 4/15/2024 at 5:05 PM, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

It seems to me that not marrying Princess Argella was kinda stupid. Yes, I get that he had dragons and could afford to spurn a lot of lords but marrying Argella would have given him a kingdom without any fuss. Assassinate Argilac and he would have had a much easier time conquering Westeros. Also when he finished conquering Westeros (except Dorne) marry his 3 different lines into each other (Targ style) and make Stormlands a principality like Dragonstone and the rest of the Stormlands would become part of the crown lands. Yes, I know it wouldn't allow for the current story to take place blah, blah, blah, im not concerned with that. Any thoughts?

This is one scenario for what might have happened if he did marry her. Another is that she poisons him in his sleep.

I think the overriding concern was to keep the bloodline pure; that is, make sure the Westerosi don't get dragon-riding skills.

[Hippocras]

35 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

to keep the bloodline pure; that is, make sure the Westerosi don't get dragon-riding skills.

I am very sure you have this backwards. Keeping thr bloodlines pure was about maintainting their own dragon riding abiliy, not about keeping any trace of it from spreading to families that had no dragons. Because they clearly did not do that. Targ blood did spread. At least to House Velaryon, but all signs point to it spreading quite a bit farther even before the conquest.

[Universal Sword Donor]

12 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I know that tho

Guess he was too old and entrenched to accept anyone above him on the totem pole, especially someone with the capability to destroy him in a day or two

You literally asked if we knew and are responding to some hypothesizing by saying "I know that tho."

[Ring3r]

On 4/15/2024 at 4:05 PM, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

It seems to me that not marrying Princess Argella was kinda stupid. Yes, I get that he had dragons and could afford to spurn a lot of lords but marrying Argella would have given him a kingdom without any fuss. Assassinate Argilac and he would have had a much easier time conquering Westeros. Also when he finished conquering Westeros (except Dorne) marry his 3 different lines into each other (Targ style) and make Stormlands a principality like Dragonstone and the rest of the Stormlands would become part of the crown lands. Yes, I know it wouldn't allow for the current story to take place blah, blah, blah, im not concerned with that. Any thoughts?

I think it was quite shrewd of Aegon.  Those two lords....Argilac and Harron, were nearly at the point of open war, with the others parts of Westeros much more united, or at least friendly with their neighbors.  The North was fully behind the Starks, for example.  Aegon knew this....and he essentially split the continent into two fronts by invading in the center.  His goal was to unite the continent under his rule.  Attacking the least united portion first was a great move.  He was negotiating from a position of strength, and Harron was the largest initial threat.  He didn't need to dilute his bloodline to win and he knew it....but his initial offer to Argilac made him seem just.  The offer was made....and rejected...and Aegon attacked Harron...only turning against Argilac afterwards.

The whole thing was political...he wanted everyone to know that he would treat those who cooperated fairly.

[Jaenara Belarys]

11 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

You literally asked if we knew and are responding to some hypothesizing by saying "I know that tho."

 

I didn't, that was Floki asking. 

On 4/15/2024 at 3:28 PM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Do we know if Argilac knew that Aegon was already married? It seems like his marriage proposal was an act of desperation rather than a calculated move. 

 

[KingAerys_II]

House Hoare triggered Argillac.
Harren Hoare built the greatest stronghold of the Continent to start his conquest of the Crownlands territories.
Some of the lands Argillac offered to Aegon were ironborn lands, so he wished to create a conflict between them.
The marriage had the purpose to crush Harren ambitions, then Aegon exploited the enmities among the kingdoms.
Argillac already rejected a dornish invasion and killed a Gardener king before Aegon Conquest, so it was unlikely that these kingdoms would feed Argillac during an ironborn invasion of his lands
 

[John Suburbs]

On 5/10/2024 at 10:05 AM, Hippocras said:

I am very sure you have this backwards. Keeping thr bloodlines pure was about maintainting their own dragon riding abiliy, not about keeping any trace of it from spreading to families that had no dragons. Because they clearly did not do that. Targ blood did spread. At least to House Velaryon, but all signs point to it spreading quite a bit farther even before the conquest.

Eh, look closer. It wasn't until after the dragons died did you see Targaryen daughters marrying into other houses besides the Velaryons. Before that, it was always other daughters marrying into the Targ line. And even in a case like Daella Targ marrying Rodrick Arryn, their daughter was wed to Viserys I, bringing it right back into the Targ fold.

Of course, there were always by-blows, but these were usually with commoners, who don't count. Only noble houses, and even then, only the most powerful, posed a threat if they were to get dragons of their own.