Yet another frakkin' BSG thread

[Werthead]

Nice. Polly Walker - Atia from [b]Rome[/b] - [url="http://galacticasitrep.blogspot.com/2008/05/casting-news.html"]has been cast[/url] in [b]Caprica[/b].

[Myrddin]

Anyone else think that the song could be about the final cylon? If he was justing singing it in the first scene, I wouldn't think much about it, but since it's woven throughout, he may be getting prophetic in his delirium of pain.

"Alone she sleeps in the shirt of man,
With my three wishes clutched in her hand.

The first that she be spared the pain,
That comes from a dark and laughing rain.

When she finds love, may it always be true,
As I beg the second wish, I make too.

Wish no more, my life you can take,
To have her please, one day wake.

To have her please just one day wake."

ETA: Nope, it's jsut a sone about loss. [url="http://www.bearmccreary.com/blog/?p=349"]http://www.bearmccreary.com/blog/?p=349[/url]

[Guest Raidne]

Too bad - I was actually hoping it had some relevance to plot since we had to hear the exact same lyrics a good three times.

I think Gaeta has a nice voice, but have him sing something different if the particular song isn't really that relevant.

I don't get this show anymore. So the deal from the beginning was that the five knew the way to earth, but the rebel Cylons were going to take the 5? Why would anyone agree to that? Like the 5 are just going to point them in the right direction and then take off, able to take the Cylons back to earth to destroy whatever is left of humanity whenever they feel like it?

Plus everything EHK said.

[Blaine]

Those lyrics were in English? Because I honestly didn't make out a single word. But the singing was nice.

[Wouter]

I'm not certain that the lyrics are entirely irrelevant to the plot. At least the "waking up" of the hybrid at the end was planned to go together with Gaeta's final line, and while the lyrics are meant to express a melancholic lost love feeling, it is not said the words weren't chosen by the writer (who probably knew a lot of major plot points of the whole season already when he wrote the lyrics) to have some relevance to the plot.

I just realised that a Raptor managed to jump to the resurrection hub in this ep. That's really stupid from Cavil and co - they [i]did[/i] park this invaluable, irreplaceable, unique, cornerstone of their entire race right next to Galactica (and not far off their own civil war battles I suppose). And this while it is implied that this hub has such a range, for whatever it does, that it can support every resurrection ship/facility in the whole Cylon world. Why isn't this thing safely somewhere in the neighbourhoud of their home planet?

Much as I love this particular episode, it's a shame that the writers are really going for the thematic/symbolic/destiny approach (int he entire season so far) rather than for plot lines that make sense even when you think longer than 5 seconds about them.

[Guy Kilmore]

[quote name='Raidne' post='1360528' date='May 19 2008, 11.55']I don't get this show anymore. So the deal from the beginning was that the five knew the way to earth, but the rebel Cylons were going to take the 5? Why would anyone agree to that? Like the 5 are just going to point them in the right direction and then take off, able to take the Cylons back to earth to destroy whatever is left of humanity whenever they feel like it?

Plus everything EHK said.[/quote]

From what I gathered, I don't think Roslin really believed that the final 5 knew where Earth was. She just wants them revealed and out of the fleet. Give'em away or keep them and find out what they know, then give'em away, its all the same to her

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='Wouter' post='1360610' date='May 19 2008, 13.09']I just realised that a Raptor managed to jump to the resurrection hub in this ep. That's really stupid from Cavil and co - they [i]did[/i] park this invaluable, irreplaceable, unique, cornerstone of their entire race right next to Galactica (and not far off their own civil war battles I suppose).[/quote]

Actually, we have no way of knowing how many jumps that Raptor made before it encountered Resurrection Hub. Could be one, could be thirty. In any case, I don't see a problem. Putting one ship within one jump of another isn't like moving into the house next door to Bill Adama's. One jump can cover an incredible distance, and the chances of one ship running into another ship, particularly when there's no active search, are astronomical.

EHK -

I think that the lack of consequences for the Demetrius crew is perfectly in line with Adama's character, and with the necessities of circumstance. As we know, Adama rarely holds his crew responsible for their actions. He forgives Cara for running away with his Raider, Lee for holding a gun to Tigh's head, Helo for spoiling the human race's opportunity for final victory over the Cylons, blah blah. It's what he does. But there's also a more practical reason for overlooking what happened. Demetrius was on a secret mission Roslin wouldn't even acknowledge, and holding a bunch of court martials is going to trigger a whole bucket of questions, none of which Adama wants to answer. So he just has to live with things as they are.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Guy Kilmore' post='1360615' date='May 19 2008, 13.15']From what I gathered, I don't think Roslin really believed that the final 5 knew where Earth was. She just wants them revealed and out of the fleet. Give'em away or keep them and find out what they know, then give'em away, its all the same to her[/quote]

Yup. I mean, they listened to the proposal, and then right afterwords tried to figure out what they could get out of this whole deal. Wiping out the cylons ability to resurrect AND finding and removing the final 5 cylons from the fleet? That is one hell of a sweet fucking deal. Screw Earth, that's enough reason to do it on it's own. Everything else is just icing on the cake.

[quote]And what the fuck is a speech about mortality from the DESTROYER OF A FUCKING SPECIES supposed to convince me of? And for a Council that bitches endlessly about some rather asinine shit, you'd think they might have some comments for the genocidal bitch. Like how we're supposed to trust a genocidal bitch? Or how her conscience is doing with the blood of billions on it? Short memories or something?[/quote]

They were trying to doublecross her the minute she was out of the room. They don't need to buy any of the shit she spouted. The deal is sweet for them, and they know it. Roslin just did that to try and calm the Quorum down.

As for lack of consequences, that's been going on from the start. They can't afford to chuck out personael who disobey. There's not enough personnel left.

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1360703' date='May 19 2008, 14.31']As for lack of consequences, that's been going on from the start. They can't afford to chuck out personael who disobey. There's not enough personnel left.[/quote]

Although this is true, I still think that the "anything goes" approach to disciplinary philosophy causes as much trouble as it averts. The very fact that each crewman is so important is the very reason why discipline is so important. If people get the idea that they can get away with murder, they'll try, and that's what gets you offiers killing prisoners and overthowing governments, etc.

[Shryke]

[quote name='TrackerNeil' post='1360770' date='May 19 2008, 15.05']Although this is true, I still think that the "anything goes" approach to disciplinary philosophy causes as much trouble as it averts. The very fact that each crewman is so important is the very reason why discipline is so important. If people get the idea that they can get away with murder, they'll try, and that's what gets you offiers killing prisoners and overthowing governments, etc.[/quote]

Yeah, well, what else are you gonna do?

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1360781' date='May 19 2008, 16.10']Yeah, well, what else are you gonna do?[/quote]

For a start, court-martial Tyrol and Agathon over the killing of Lt. Thorne. That would show everyone that the rule of law still holds, and that you can't run around striking officers acting under color of authority without consequence. I think Cain went off the boards in deciding to summarily execute (particularly given the mitigating circumstances), but I also think Adama goofed by just shrugging and saying, "Oh well." There is a middle ground there, and certain officers have found themselves there. Socinus was jailed for deriliction of duty, and Cally for discharging a weapon without authorization. Why do they get punished for smaller offenses while Tyrol and Helo literally got away with murder?

Cain was absolutely right on at least one thing: Adama is too close to his crew, and that does blind him to their faults.

[Jon AS]

Yeah but if they'd court martialled Helo the Cylons might all be dead by now and the show would be over.:P

[Shryke]

[quote name='TrackerNeil' post='1360880' date='May 19 2008, 16.02']For a start, court-martial Tyrol and Agathon over the killing of Lt. Thorne. That would show everyone that the rule of law still holds, and that you can't run around striking officers acting under color of authority without consequence. I think Cain went off the boards in deciding to summarily execute (particularly given the mitigating circumstances), but I also think Adama goofed by just shrugging and saying, "Oh well." There is a middle ground there, and certain officers have found themselves there. Socinus was jailed for deriliction of duty, and Cally for discharging a weapon without authorization. Why do they get punished for smaller offenses while Tyrol and Helo literally got away with murder?[/quote]

Ahh, that's the ticket. Get rid of an officer. It's not like the officer pool is so shallow at this point it's a fucking spill on a towel. And then get rid of the only guy qualified to run the Deck. Good ideas.

Also, Cally's sentence was a deliberate joke.

[quote]Cain was absolutely right on at least one thing: Adama is too close to his crew, and that does blind him to their faults.[/quote]

Yup. What's your point?

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1360910' date='May 19 2008, 17.16']Ahh, that's the ticket. Get rid of an officer. It's not like the officer pool is so shallow at this point it's a fucking spill on a towel. And then get rid of the only guy qualified to run the Deck. Good ideas.

Also, Cally's sentence was a deliberate joke.[/quote]

I never said Adama should execute Tyrol and Helo; I said he should subject them to the code of military justice. As the law dictates. I think it's quite possible they might have been exonerated, given what Thorn was up to when they assaulted him, but the very workings of the process would have established a sense of discipline that IMO is sorely lacking.

Cally's sentence is the "middle path" to which I referred. Although Adama didn't approve of her shooting a Cylon prisoner, he's short of qualified personnel, so he punished her enough to satisfy the dictates of order, but not so much that he loses her services. Maybe you see that as a joke, but I think it was a solid decision.

[lotuspixie]

[quote name='Raidne' post='1360528' date='May 19 2008, 10.55']I think Gaeta has a nice voice, but have him sing something different if the particular song isn't really that relevant.[/quote]

I guess I'm replying to the general attitude of a lot of fans of the show that "standalone" episodes and anything that doesn't move the plot forward--anything that isn't "relevant"--are pointless and should not be used on the show.

I don't understand this point of view.

I enjoy a story being told, and enjoy watching characters exist and go about their daily lives in the universe created by the writers. why does everything have be a piece of the puzzle?

just curious. this is an interesting phenomenon i've observed in the last couple of years amongst viewers/readers of various shows and books. an attitude i hadn't notice much before.

[The Stranger]

I have become one hundred percent convinced that Doc Cottle is the final cylon. It will be dramatically revealed by D'Anna, everyone will summarily rush to sick bay, confronting the Doc. He will proceed to dig into his pocket, light a smoke, and say "Your point?"


more importantly though: I have recently been having fever dreams here in Bali, and I actually had one about the end of the show. Here are the pertinent details:

Tigh, Dee, and about seven other humans are all that survive of Adama and Apollo's civil war. The entire fleet is destroyed when Apollo kamikazes his Viper into the inner guts of the Galactica, which then goes nuclear and wipes out the fleet. Dee, Tigh, and some other mortals I didn't recognize make it down to earth in a single raptor.

The earth they find is the 70s-era plastic tree-festooned jungle from Land of the Lost. Immediately upon landing, they are confronted by three figures sitting in chairs at the end of the clearing. these figures are all Imperious Leaders from the original series. They congratulate the humans on finally reaching earth and offer them a number of options for their reward:

1. all of humanity will be cast back in time several thousand years to the mythical age of the gods. humans will never advance again, but they will live perpetually in a state of epic, retarded glory.

2. humanity will get its shit together and form a mighty united empire that will stretch throughout the entire universe. the catch here is that the empire will never, ever fall. a single political unit of infinite power forever.

3. a mysterious door number three.

SPOILER:
[color="#000000"]they take door number two[/color]

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='lotuspixie' post='1361394' date='May 19 2008, 22.28']I enjoy a story being told, and enjoy watching characters exist and go about their daily lives in the universe created by the writers. why does everything have be a piece of the puzzle?

just curious. this is an interesting phenomenon i've observed in the last couple of years amongst viewers/readers of various shows and books. an attitude i hadn't notice much before.[/quote]

Here's my point of view. Every episode of any series, or any scene in a movie, should either advance the plot or tell you something new about the characters. "The Woman King" advanced nothing in terms of plot, and in fact turned out exactly the way you thought it would. Worse, it told you nothing about Helo except what you already knew: he's a nice guy who tries to do what's right. Same with "Black Market", really, with Lee's dream woman who is never again referenced and an underground economy that never again rears its illicit head. The boxing episode (can't recall the name offhand), on the other hand, while it does not advance the plot, tells you a bunch of back story about Lee, Kara, Roslin and Adama, and IMO that's well worth it.

[Lord of Oop North]

[quote name='The Stranger' post='1361657' date='May 20 2008, 05.12']--- Crazy Bali Dream ---[/quote]

Pure. Gold.

But it would have been even funnier if the Cylon Imperious Leader was Monty Hall.

It's too bad we can't all control our dreams.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote]I think that the lack of consequences for the Demetrius crew is perfectly in line with Adama's character, and with the necessities of circumstance. As we know, Adama rarely holds his crew responsible for their actions.[/quote]

I have no problem (well I do, but at least they're consistent) with them continuing to play Adama as the forgiving sap. Its just that they don't even address that shit in this episode. Usually they have Adama frowning and talking tough for half the episode before he inevitably gives in. Here there was nothing. It was just ignored.

[quote]They were trying to doublecross her the minute she was out of the room. They don't need to buy any of the shit she spouted. The deal is sweet for them, and they know it.[/quote]

The deal is sweet. Than have the GB (Genocidal Bitch) sell it on those terms. Don't give a worthless, sappy speech about mortality that makes no sense except in a TV universe where such nonsense is common and always converts the masses. (I fucking hate most TV/film speeches. They're almost always drivel and they almost always work. Cept for the 'call to arms/kill the enemies/go to war' speeches. Those are usually ok) GB should have just laid out the advantages frankly and directly and called it a day. 'I don't trust you, you don't trust me, but how can you pass this up?' sort of thing.

[quote]Roslin just did that to try and calm the Quorum down.[/quote]

If I was in the Quorum, that would be the moment I and any other sane person would start raising hell. Seriously, who could pass up the opportunity to throw their crimes back in their faces? Especially a group that petty.

[quote]I enjoy a story being told, and enjoy watching characters exist and go about their daily lives in the universe created by the writers. why does everything have be a piece of the puzzle?[/quote]

It doesn't necessarily. But the fact is most of the stand alone's are godawful even on their own terms. And they exist to cater to an audience that just ain't there. BSG doesn't have the casual viewer as much as other shows. They've got the devoted fanbase that will be there every episode (so long as the show remains good) and the rest make up a minority. Continue to please the devotees and the ratings will remain high enough to sustain and succeed. Start annoying them with pointless bullshit and they'll abandon it.

[Shryke]

[quote name='EnlightenmentHK' post='1361873' date='May 20 2008, 09.56']The deal is sweet. Than have the GB (Genocidal Bitch) sell it on those terms. Don't give a worthless, sappy speech about mortality that makes no sense except in a TV universe where such nonsense is common and always converts the masses. (I fucking hate most TV/film speeches. They're almost always drivel and they almost always work. Cept for the 'call to arms/kill the enemies/go to war' speeches. Those are usually ok) GB should have just laid out the advantages frankly and directly and called it a day. 'I don't trust you, you don't trust me, but how can you pass this up?' sort of thing.[/quote]

Because the Cylons don't really think that way? (At least not these ones. Cavil would have done exactly what you said though) They tend to be childish and naive. She probably thought it was a perfectly reasonable explanation.