The New NFL Thread

[Kalbear]

At this point Kyle Orton has played only what, 7 games in this offense?

It makes me sad to say, but he's going to get worse. They're going to play teams with better defenses who also now know how to scheme against him. He's not horrible, and he's certainly not Grossman - but he's not going to be The Answer.

[Jaime L]

[quote name='Jaxom 1974' post='1564868' date='Oct 23 2008, 10.20']Here's the thing though, and I'm not saying he wasn't kinda awful in his own way on '05: In 2005, Kyle Orton was a place holder. I don't think he was getting the coaching, let alone the encouragement, to show that he could play the game. I think that attitude came from a coaching staff who's entire thought process was, "Let the defense win the games and Kyle goes out there on offense because someone has to until Rex is back." But to be fair though too, in '05 (even '07 to a degree when he was in), Orton didn't have a Matt Forte, just Ced Benson, nor did he have an O-Line that seemed to work as well as he has. That has to contribute a great deal to his breakout.

Lovie is also a defensive minded coach, but he's also mercurial in his focus, I think, too. He's like moth that gravitates towards whichever aspect of his team is burning brightest. "Ooh the Defense is killer, focus there!" "Ooh Devin Hester makes the special teams click! How can we make Special Teams our primary force?" "Hey! Kyle [i]can[/i] throw the ball! Who knew? Let's give him some more rope and see what he can do!"[/quote]

Shouldn't this post be prefaced with some kind of Ortonfanboy4ever disclosure? :P

I do agree with what you're saying Jaxom. Might be we're judging him harshly because he was forced to play before he was ready as a rookie. Most fourth rounders can't just step into a league and light it up. And it wasn't like the Bears had planned to start him, he got thrust into the role when Sexy Rexy went down. Not sure if you can blame coaching for it, though. Or even credit it to superior talent around him. He's making a lot of marginal talents like Marty Booker look a lot better. I think it's an experience thing...KO finally has the reps to understand the NFL game. And while he's not the most physically gifted guy, he's got the intelligence..which is how I assume he was prolific at Purdue.

[Slurktan]

[quote name='Jaxom 1974' post='1564868' date='Oct 23 2008, 10.20']Here's the thing though, and I'm not saying he wasn't kinda awful in his own way on '05: In 2005, Kyle Orton was a place holder. I don't think he was getting the coaching, let alone the encouragement, to show that he could play the game. I think that attitude came from a coaching staff who's entire thought process was, "Let the defense win the games and Kyle goes out there on offense because someone has to until Rex is back." But to be fair though too, in '05 (even '07 to a degree when he was in), Orton didn't have a Matt Forte, just Ced Benson, nor did he have an O-Line that seemed to work as well as he has. That has to contribute a great deal to his breakout.[/quote]

To be fair Orton didn't have Forte in '05 he had someone better in Thomas Jones. TJ was fricken awesome that year, especially considering every defense they played went 8 men in the box to stop him.

[Andrik the Unsmiling]

[quote name='Rockroi' post='1564904' date='Oct 23 2008, 07.52']He started with a terrible roster and made them “almost decent” but you must wonder the trajectory of this “recovery” considering the most important piece of that recovery – the one most associated with Nolan- Alex Smith, has been a terrible decision. Add to that the 49’ers record during this time: last 4 seasons 5-11 (losing at one point, 10 of 11 games), 7-9, 4-12 (losing 12 of 13 games in one stretch), and 2-14. Now, in 2008 they were 2-4 at the time of firing. This would be bad enough; but the 49’ers are in the abysmal NFC West. There is no reason that the 9’ers – if they were truly improving –should have been this bad. You yourself made many references to Nolan's failures, including his bad personel decisions and his inability to delegate proper authority on D. Hence, the problems.[/quote]

That's the point: it was time for Nolan to be fired... maybe it would've been classier to wait until the end of the season (or at least the bye week), but it was becoming clear that he'd lost the team. I've got no problems with the team letting him go, and you're right, winning is the ultimate measurement of a HC, and the NFC West is awful-- but taking this year's record into account, it's not like we've been flopping around against crappy division opponents. We lost a close opener to Arizona, then beat Seattle. The other three losses on the record came against New Orleans, Philly, and New York, not other West teams. And I don't see why we should associate the Alex Smith flop with Nolan any more than the Frank Gore or Patrick Willis or Joe Staley successes. When Nolan got here the team had a lot of flops and few successes. Now that he's leaving we have some busts still on the roster but just as many players who have lived up to or are exceeding expectations. That's not good enough, but it's better than it was.

[Bronn Stone]

[quote name='Andrik the Unsmiling' post='1565166' date='Oct 23 2008, 11.27']That's the point: it was time for Nolan to be fired... maybe it would've been classier to wait until the end of the season (or at least the bye week), but it was becoming clear that he'd lost the team.[/quote]

What do you mean by 'lost the team'? Normally I associate that with the team not listening to the coach or not really trying. I thought the 49ers fought hard all game long. They just didn't have a good enough quarterback to run the offense they put in place. And the defense didn't seem to be schematically in sync. But I think they still respected him and were still giving their all.

I do think that Nolan lost the confidence of both the fanbase and management and that his ongoing presence on the sideline was going to become an issue with TV ratings and attendance.

[add-on]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1564923' date='Oct 23 2008, 10.21']It makes me sad to say, but he's going to get worse. They're going to play teams with better defenses who also now know how to scheme against him. He's not horrible, and he's certainly not Grossman - but he's not going to be The Answer.[/quote]
I don't think anyone in this thread would be surprised to see this happen. Personally, I'm a little too snakebit by the last time the Bears had a QB to get excited about (first month of Grossman in 2006). From here on out, defenses are going to be scheming to stop [i]him[/i] and not the run, and it will be interesting to see how he handles that. I also want to see how Ron Turner and Matt Forte handle that. Back to KO, I'm especially interested to see how he'll handle himself against defenses like Green Bay and Tennessee. That said, he did perform well against both Minnesota and Tampa Bay -- both teams with (at least purportedly) solid defenses.

[quote name='Jaime L' post='1564964' date='Oct 23 2008, 10.52']I do agree with what you're saying Jaxom. Might be we're judging him harshly because he was forced to play before he was ready as a rookie. Most fourth rounders can't just step into a league and light it up. And it wasn't like the Bears had planned to start him, he got thrust into the role when Sexy Rexy went down. Not sure if you can blame coaching for it, though. Or even credit it to superior talent around him. He's making a lot of marginal talents like Marty Booker look a lot better. I think it's an experience thing...KO finally has the reps to understand the NFL game. And while he's not the most physically gifted guy, he's got the intelligence..which is how I assume he was prolific at Purdue.[/quote]
Largely agree with all of this, especially the experience thing. I have to quibble over 'the physically gifted' part, though. Have you seen the throws he's been making lately? On a friggin' rope and right on target. I almost wet myself watching him on the first drive last week making the Vikings D look like junior highers.

Remember that people were so impressed with his junior year at Purdue that they were picking him to win the Heisman his senior year. Then he had a couple of really bad games somewhere in the middle (4 games in maybe) -- threw a bunch of interceptions and fumbled a couple of times in key situations. He looked completely shell-shocked even while it was going on. After that it seemed he and Tiller both lost confidence in his abilities, and he was very mediocre for the rest of the year. So I think there's something to what Jax was saying about Orton needing the right coaching (by this I mean Turner and not Smith) to give him confidence to go out and do his thing. He's no Peyton Manning, that's obvious, but he's got some serious tools to work with.

[Space Bandito]

Fuck ESPN. . . .

[Starkess]

[quote name='Space_Bandito' post='1565586' date='Oct 23 2008, 20.06']Fuck ESPN. . . .[/quote]

Seriously.

[Lord O' Bones]

[quote name='Space_Bandito' post='1565586' date='Oct 23 2008, 17.06']Fuck ESPN. . . .[/quote]
[quote name='Starkess' post='1565591' date='Oct 23 2008, 17.13']Seriously.[/quote]
Eh?

[Space Bandito]

[url="http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/10/23/pats-respond-to-brady-report/"]PFT - Patriots Respond to Brady Reports[/url]

[quote]Today, ESPN cited an unnamed source who supposedly expressed the feelings of the Patriots ˜organization. This unsubstantiated report does not represent the team's views whatsoever. We have supported Tom Brady one hundred percent from day one of this process and will continue to do so. We issued a statement last Saturday expressing our complete organizational support for Tom. That support includes all aspects of the process. Unfortunately, our statement was not mentioned or referenced in ESPN's report. Today, we reiterate our total support for Tom as he recovers from his injury.[/quote]

Meanwhile ESPN continues false reports.

[BLU-RAY]

[quote name='Space_Bandito' post='1565619' date='Oct 23 2008, 17.46'][url="http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/10/23/pats-respond-to-brady-report/"]PFT - Patriots Respond to Brady Reports[/url]



Meanwhile ESPN continues false reports.[/quote]

I'm not the world's biggest ESPN fan or anything, but I gotta say I trust them more than the Pats... not by a whole lot, though.

[Andrik the Unsmiling]

[quote name='Bronn Stone' post='1565175' date='Oct 23 2008, 11.34']What do you mean by 'lost the team'? Normally I associate that with the team not listening to the coach or not really trying. I thought the 49ers fought hard all game long. They just didn't have a good enough quarterback to run the offense they put in place. And the defense didn't seem to be schematically in sync. But I think they still respected him and were still giving their all.

I do think that Nolan lost the confidence of both the fanbase and management and that his ongoing presence on the sideline was going to become an issue with TV ratings and attendance.[/quote]

I don't mean that they'd quit on him, but I do think it looked like they were fast losing confidence in the system and coaching staff. The defense was playing tentatively and the offense, well, I think it was getting to the point where they were expecting those turnovers. That's what it looked like to me, anyway.

[Space Bandito]

[quote name='DVD ROTS' post='1565636' date='Oct 23 2008, 21.04']I'm not the world's biggest ESPN fan or anything, but I gotta say I trust them more than the Pats... not by a whole lot, though.[/quote]

I don't know why. Both want to make money. Both want to protect their reputations. But if that is the way you feel. ESPN sold their soul for Spygate. A bullshit story that every one still swallows. So Rodney is dirty. A man who has never been arrested etc. Bill Belichick is evil etc. Whatever.

ESPN can say whatever they want, but they have lost New England and they have made an enemy in Foxborough.

[Lord O' Bones]

[quote name='Space_Bandito' post='1565657' date='Oct 23 2008, 18.23']ESPN can say whatever they want, but they have lost New England and they have made an enemy in Foxboro.[/quote]

Bristol and Foxboro deathmatch! Let's do this!

Edit: Damn SB, you made me mispell Foxborough.

Also, looks like you'll be outnumbered 4 to 1. Are the rowdy football fans enough to make up the difference? Tune in at eleven.

[Space Bandito]

[quote name='Lord O' Bones' post='1565661' date='Oct 23 2008, 21.32']Bristol and Foxboro deathmatch! Let's do this!

Edit: Damn SB, you made me mispell Foxborough.

Also, looks like you'll be outnumbered 4 to 1. Are the rowdy football fans enough to make up the difference? Tune in at eleven.[/quote]

Yeah my bad. I've been there and should know how to spell it. But I do know how to spell [url="http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn%3a%44CJ53UA0JpkSUM:http://thesportshernia.typepad.com/blog/images/2007/06/29/espn_woody_paige_boner_parade.png"]ESPN[/url] :thumbsup:

[BLU-RAY]

[quote name='Space_Bandito' post='1565657' date='Oct 23 2008, 18.23']I don't know why. Both want to make money. Both want to protect their reputations. But if that is the way you feel. ESPN sold their soul for Spygate. A bullshit story that every one still swallows. So Rodney is dirty. A man who has never been arrested etc. Bill Belichick is evil etc. Whatever.

ESPN can say whatever they want, but they have lost New England and they have made an enemy in Foxborough.[/quote]

It's not just the Pats. If this story came out about any team, and the team published a similar refutation, I would probably buy ESPN's side. They do exist to sell the story, at least somewhat, but I trust them more than a team, which is always gonna circle the wagons and protect their interests.

[UNIT81]

Santonio Holmes arrested for weed possession 2 days before the Giants game...dumbass.

[url="http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08298/922557-66.stm"]http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08298/922557-66.stm[/url]

[Jaxom 1974]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1564923' date='Oct 23 2008, 10.21']At this point Kyle Orton has played only what, 7 games in this offense?

It makes me sad to say, but he's going to get worse. They're going to play teams with better defenses who also now know how to scheme against him. He's not horrible, and he's certainly not Grossman - but he's not going to be The Answer.[/quote]

I'm not going to disagree, but at the same time, I gotta ask: What is The Answer? Seriously. Two of the longest sports streaks in Chicago are the Cubs and the lack of championships and the Bears without "A Quarterback". Maybe he will be, maybe he won't be. Right now though, Orton's playing above the level of a great number of QBs who've roamed through Chicago. Has it just been too long it's hard to get behind a guy until he does something beyond spectacular for a more than one or two seasons?

In any case, "getting worse" might not be the right term to define what might happen in the coming games though. Teams are gonna scheme against him, sure, but that might just free up Forte a bit more, the recent recipent of scheming that's allowed Orton to open things up a little more. Bottom line, the Bears seem to have found some balance to that Offense right now (Brandon Llyod's due back, so there's one more potential worry for opposing defenses) that makes me think that the future looks bright on the lakeside.

Is that fanboi enough for you, Jaime? :P

[DanteGabriel]

[quote name='Swordfish' post='1564430' date='Oct 22 2008, 18.43']Harrison was a 'probably, assuming the cards fall right' before the HGH.

After the HGH I'd say he's a 'not very likely'.[/quote]
Well, yes, I am sure we can all agree that [url="http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Terry-Bradshaw-was-all-roided-up;_ylt=AmDnhFZVX3RWgaeCGdkG7FZDubYF?urn=nfl,89945"]athletes who abused performance-enhancing drugs[/url] have no place in the Hall of Fame.

[Swordfish]

[quote name='Space_Bandito' post='1565657' date='Oct 23 2008, 18.23']I don't know why. Both want to make money. Both want to protect their reputations. But if that is the way you feel. ESPN sold their soul for Spygate. A bullshit story that every one still swallows. So Rodney is dirty. A man who has never been arrested etc. Bill Belichick is evil etc. Whatever.

ESPN can say whatever they want, but they have lost New England and they have made an enemy in Foxborough.[/quote]


:lol:

I'm sure they tremble at the mere thought.