A Memory of Light (Vols I & II & III)

[wolverine]

Off this topic but actually about WoT content:

How will the Black Tower be reconciled? Does anyone else think that what has been going on there is immensly stupid? I mean that the storyline there makes almost no sense? With "traveling" and stuff it seems like Rand should have been more involved there and it just seems really stupid what is going on. I guess I could say the same about a lot of situations that arise when you make "traveling" possible. Like why can't Rand and Egwene ever just meet and talk, they did grow up together for Pete's sake. Or at least communicate somehow?

[Marcelo Rebelo Firqoralas]

[quote name='Brahm_K' post='1742292' date='Apr 2 2009, 17.42']I really am surprised how easy and happily some people are taking this. If this were any other series, I could maybe understand people not caring, but this is the Wheel of Time, a series that has essentially exploited fans' time and money for the last ten years. There just comes a point where it's too much- where no amount of wanting to see how this monster is going to end will justify buying more and more padded out books.[/quote]
Yes, and that point came about ten years ago. What's happening now is at worst just business as usual.

Still, you have no idea what so ever if these books will be padded or not. WoT has never been particularly concise and I don't see why one would want a more rushed and less detailed book, just because one wants it to fit some arbitrary length criterium.

[quote]Profit does not justify all. If GRRM announced tommorow that ADWD was being split in two, either because it was too long or because Bantam decided to publish a book that could have been one in two installments, people would either be angry because the story was bloated, or because Bantam was being greedy- and rightfully so either way.[/quote]
Um, he already did this and most people were OK with it.

[Werthead]

[quote name='Myrddin' post='1742121' date='Apr 2 2009, 15.15']Yes, I've yet to enjoy a Sanderson book as much as Martin or Lynch or Abercrombie, but he's still young. GRRM didn't start GoT until his 40's and RJ started WoT in his 40's too, if I recall. Sanderson already has a better foundation than either of them and he's in his early 30's.

I may not be a huge fan of his now, but in ten years, who knows what he'll pump out.[/quote]

GRRM started writing [b]ASoIaF[/b] at 43 (1991), whilst RJ started writing [b]WoT[/b] at 37 (1984), although he'd started planning it since he was 30 (1977), which as a comparison is not so bad.

Tolkien started writing Middle-earth stories when he was 25 (1917), published the first one when he was 45 (1937) and LotR when he was 62-63 (1954-55), which is also a solid innings.

[quote name='firqorescu' post='1742359' date='Apr 2 2009, 18.25']Um, he already did this and most people were OK with it.[/quote]

Not in this way. The 'split-book' claim was a bad way of phrasing it as people assumed (and a lot of the more ignorant still do) that GRRM had 100% finished AFFC/ADWD and split the thing in half, which is not even remotely the truth. If ADWD gets too humongous, it may have to be split again, which I think GRRM and everyone and both his publishers will be working very hard to avoid happening as it's bloody annoying.

But that's an OT discussion ;)

[Shryke]

[quote name='Brahm_K' post='1742292' date='Apr 2 2009, 12.42']I really am surprised how easy and happily some people are taking this. If this were any other series, I could maybe understand people not caring, but this is the Wheel of Time, a series that has essentially exploited fans' time and money for the last ten years.[/quote]

Probably because the vast majority of those still reading the series either don't think it's that way at all or have just excepted it.

[Arataniello]

[quote name='wolverine' post='1742310' date='Apr 2 2009, 13.53']Off this topic but actually about WoT content:

How will the Black Tower be reconciled? Does anyone else think that what has been going on there is immensly stupid? I mean that the storyline there makes almost no sense? With "traveling" and stuff it seems like Rand should have been more involved there and it just seems really stupid what is going on.[/quote]

Given that Elaida has foreseen the BT being rent in fire and blood (heh), there is going to be some sort of throw-down between Mazrim's handpicked folk and Rand/Logain.

Logain has all the bonded AS on his side, the ones that Elaida sent to the BT - about fifty-one sisters I believe. Mazrim's faction may have a similar number, given the number of Red sisters (led by ?Toveine) who have decided that they have to bond the male channelers to try to control their (the male channelers') madness. Then there are the handful of AS/Asha'man's pairings left over from Rand original five (Ebon Hopwil, Narishma, Damer Flinn, the one who went mad that I can't recall, and the one who turned out to be Oran'gar).

Taken in conjunction with Min's vision of glory in Logain's future, it seems fairly certain that he will end up as the victor in such a conflict, but not clear if the Black Tower will survive.

I can't believe I could still remember all these facts, years after reading the books.

[wolverine]

[quote name='Aratan' post='1742413' date='Apr 2 2009, 13.00']Given that Elaida has foreseen the BT being rent in fire and blood (heh), there is going to be some sort of throw-down between Mazrim's handpicked folk and Rand/Logain.

Logain has all the bonded AS on his side, the ones that Elaida sent to the BT - about fifty-one sisters I believe. Mazrim's faction may have a similar number, given the number of Red sisters (led by ?Toveine) who have decided that they have to bond the male channelers to try to control their (the male channelers') madness. Then there are the handful of AS/Asha'man's pairings left over from Rand original five (Ebon Hopwil, Narishma, Damer Flinn, the one who went mad that I can't recall, and the one who turned out to be Oran'gar).

Taken in conjunction with Min's vision of glory in Logain's future, it seems fairly certain that he will end up as the victor in such a conflict, but not clear if the Black Tower will survive.

I can't believe I could still remember all these facts, years after reading the books.[/quote]

Yes this is what I thought. I was more wondering if Taim being allowed so much control is as stupid as it seems, or does the reader have that much more info? And this just seems like the case where a major character is acting irrationaly to me, Rand that is. Rand gives Taim complete control over a bunch of extremely powerful human weapons without ever checking on them?

[Poobah]

Rand is pretty much trying to rule the world, and cope with going mad and having to die, he's got a lot going on in his brainspace (including a crazyvoice, in the form of Lews Therin). That said he's being an idiot to not take some time out to go and check out things at the Black Tower every-so-often : Logain tries to warn him about Taim, but he gets brushed off by Rand, who apparently trusts him (God only knows why).

-Poobs

[ljkeane]

To be fair from Rand's point of view there is no particular reason he should trust Logain more than Taim and so far Taim has done pretty much everything Rand has asked of him.

[Maithanet]

[quote name='ljkeane' post='1742478' date='Apr 2 2009, 14.51']To be fair from Rand's point of view there is no particular reason he should trust Logain more than Taim and so far Taim has done pretty much everything Rand has asked of him.[/quote]

And more, considering Taim saved his bacon at Dumai's Wells (without being asked).

Nonetheless, Rand's shockingly hand's off approach when it comes to the Black Tower is incredibly poor planning, perhaps unrealistically so. Even if he doesn't trust Taim or Logain, he could have left a few people there to look over things and report back to him. But he didn't. Real communication is too much to ask in WOT.

[Humble Asskicker]

Brahm K,

[quote]Most of this is all Jordan's fault, since book 11 failed to have anywhere near the amount of plot advancement it should have, choosing instead to focus on Elayne's pregnancy issues, and since he of course had dragged this series out for a long time before that.[/quote]

It had considerably more momentum than its preceding volumes, but I agree that Elayne's plot line was sluggish and tedious. She comprised less than 20 percent of the book (still too high for anyone upon whom Elayne is inflicted, but anyway). Everyone else had their storyline picked up remarkably. Things actually happened, which seemed a miracle after non-events like book eight and ten, and almost nine too (if it hadn't the major event at its denouement). That is an example of almost 800,000 words where not much is accomplished and things just drag. Consider in turn all the things that must be accomplished and try fitting it into books that size.

[quote]Profit does not justify all. If GRRM announced tommorow that ADWD was being split in two, either because it was too long or because Bantam decided to publish a book that could have been one in two installments, people would either be angry because the story was bloated, or because Bantam was being greedy- and rightfully so either way.[/quote]

ASoS was around 425,000 words. According to GRRM, any longer and the book would have needed to be split in two. MoL threatens to be more for both volumes, should it be published in two. Possibly quite a bit more (not even Sanderson knows that one). That motherfucker is bloated - as you're using the word - but it's easily top five on best fantasy novels ever. Scientists and doctors say so, so it must be true.

But I'm just repeating myself, which I guess is okay because you are doing the same thing. It's the interminable nature of these debates, which seem to have less of an ending than WoT.

I'm fairly certain now what I figured would be likely earlier - there's simply no debating this point. The estimated word count is just enough that it treads an uncertain line, and we can't really know until the books are published what we personally will think on whether it was the right decision (unless you're really stubborn, and even if the next two books come in at 400,000 words each in addition to the first's 300,000 and are all called masterpieces, you still hold that it should have been just two volumes; or if the next two books come in at 100,000 words each and are absolutely vilified and you still say that three volumes was a bright idea).

Wert,

[quote]Not in this way. The 'split-book' claim was a bad way of phrasing it as people assumed (and a lot of the more ignorant still do) that GRRM had 100% finished AFFC/ADWD and split the thing in half, which is not even remotely the truth.[/quote]


Sanderson hasn't finished writing MoL either. It is the same thing: what was originally intended as one volume multiplied. Of course, I refer to the unhappy comment by Doherty of what began as a trilogy ends with a trilogy. These works expand themselves.

The only difference between them, as I see it, is that one guarantees closure to a series and can definitely be judged in whole as whether it was a good finale to the series or not, and the other guarantees nothing. For all we know ASoIaF might expand to eight or more books.

[Bronn Stone]

[quote name='wolverine' post='1742298' date='Apr 2 2009, 09.46']The WoT books got me into fantasy, and reading in general, early in college. I have stuck with and enjoyed the series immensly, despite its flaws. I am wondering how many people have read the books more than once? How many plan on reading CoT before the next books. I have never read a fantasy series book more than once, but I have reread the endings to prep me for a new book.[/quote]

I've probably read the first five books a couple of dozen times each. And all of them at least twice, with most over five. I'm sure that there are Dragonmount fiends who can say they've done so fifty times as much as I have.

[Shryke]

A good book is always worth reading twice. You pick up so much more the second time.

[L'Sana]

It seems to me that everyone is being too emotional about this. Really, what it boils down to is a fact and a question:

Fact: Come November, Tor will be selling a book that they claim is 1/3 of the remaining story of WOT.

Question: Is it worth the price of a hardback book to you to have that?

If your answer is "Yes," and you don't buy it in order to "punish" Tor, you are hurting yourself just as much if not more than the publisher.

My answer, at least at the moment, is "No," for a variety of reasons: Sanderson is an unknown quantity, this series has gone way down hill, I don't necessarily trust that this [i]is[/i] a third of the remaining story (I've heard the "there are 3 more books" line too many times before). So I'll wait to get it from the library.

I can see how people could come down on both sides of this, but whether you want the book or not, I think you should think about it rationally. Those who buy the book are not sellouts, those who opt not to are not traitors.

[Humble Asskicker]

[quote]My answer, at least at the moment, is "No," for a variety of reasons: Sanderson is an unknown quantity, this series has gone way down hill, I don't necessarily trust that this is a third of the remaining story (I've heard the "there are 3 more books" line too many times before). So I'll wait to get it from the library.[/quote]

I agree with this, but not the overall thesis of your post. The question on whether the story will grow and grow is still up in the air, as you say, but there too is another factor to consider, and that's the aesthetic of the matter.

I think one major point those who are advocating the view that it makes sense as a business to publish in more than two volumes are missing is the fact that just because it's a business-savvy move doesn't mean that fans should be okay with it. Most are not for that very reason, which answers for the discontent visible on this thread. WoT would make a large profit even published as two volumes. That are plenty of large volumes published even now, already cited in this thread. With three volumes, in a three year span, it's an unabashed market move. Tor is effectively saying "We want to make bank big, and we care nothing for what this does for the artistry of the work, or fan satisfaction." And they are hurting their image by doing so - or so one would have thought, as transparent as their actions are, but mysteriously those getting screwed are rushing to the defense of the business, and incredibly enough, citing greed as an appropriate reason in itself for the move (Tor is not a charity enterprise, etc).

What I cannot quite comprehend is that when other large novels are cited as being widely published in their massive form (thereby suggesting that profit must be made), people here persist on arguing that MoL in two volume form will reap so little as to qualify as a "charity case," and that those totalitarian bookstores will shelve so few volumes of MoL that tremendous revenue will be lost.

This is a fatuous claim, because there's loads of potential revenue in this New York Times bestselling series, and even if it takes up a little more book space, it would be a horrible business decision to throw away a certain profit. And there's always more books to order. How frequent do you imagine someone who has read WoT up to this point say, "Oh, you're all sold out? Well, I guess instead of waiting for the new order, I'll call it quits to this series"?

There will be the same amount of customers either way.

As for the size of the books being too monstrous - say, both longer than Atlas Shrugged - one must wonder how it is possible to deviate so dramatically in one's estimations. You would think that Sanderson has suddenly become GRRM or something.

[Gormenghast]

Just to put in perspective consider that Sanderson is writing overall more than 20% of the WHOLE WoT.

That's quite a change from the original task (completing a book).

[Bronn Stone]

*shrug*

Does anyone think that all the subplots still open can be closed in a satisfying fashion in less than 750,000 words?

I don't. Not after reading Master Luewin's list. At least not without the Dark One winning, destroying the Wheel of Time and killing everyone. And I suspect that is not the ending Jim wrote.

[Shryke]

[quote name='The Humble Asskicker' post='1742918' date='Apr 2 2009, 20.31']I agree with this, but not the overall thesis of your post. The question on whether the story will grow and grow is still up in the air, as you say, but there too is another factor to consider, and that's the aesthetic of the matter.

I think one major point those who are advocating the view that it makes sense as a business to publish in more than two volumes are missing is the fact that just because it's a business-savvy move doesn't mean that fans should be okay with it. Most are not for that very reason, which answers for the discontent visible on this thread. WoT would make a large profit even published as two volumes. That are plenty of large volumes published even now, already cited in this thread. With three volumes, in a three year span, it's an unabashed market move. Tor is effectively saying "We want to make bank big, and we care nothing for what this does for the artistry of the work, or fan satisfaction." And they are hurting their image by doing so - or so one would have thought, as transparent as their actions are, but mysteriously those getting screwed are rushing to the defense of the business, and incredibly enough, citing greed as an appropriate reason in itself for the move (Tor is not a charity enterprise, etc).

What I cannot quite comprehend is that when other large novels are cited as being widely published in their massive form (thereby suggesting that profit must be made), people here persist on arguing that MoL in two volume form will reap so little as to qualify as a "charity case," and that those totalitarian bookstores will shelve so few volumes of MoL that tremendous revenue will be lost.

This is a fatuous claim, because there's loads of potential revenue in this New York Times bestselling series, and even if it takes up a little more book space, it would be a horrible business decision to throw away a certain profit. And there's always more books to order. How frequent do you imagine someone who has read WoT up to this point say, "Oh, you're all sold out? Well, I guess instead of waiting for the new order, I'll call it quits to this series"?

There will be the same amount of customers either way.

As for the size of the books being too monstrous - say, both longer than Atlas Shrugged - one must wonder how it is possible to deviate so dramatically in one's estimations. You would think that Sanderson has suddenly become GRRM or something.[/quote]

The economic situation is much worse then usual. That's why it's different with MOL then previously.

On top of that, Sanderson is neither popular enough nor in a good enough position to shove 1 or 2 big volumes down Tor's throat the way RJ could have.

[kuenjato]

[quote name='Gormenghast' post='1742928' date='Apr 2 2009, 18.42']Just to put in perspective consider that Sanderson is writing overall more than 20% of the WHOLE WoT.

That's quite a change from the original task (completing a book).[/quote]


And again, that blame should be laid at Jordan's feet, not Sanderson's. As it was mentioned above, approx 800,000 words comprise [i]PoD[/i], [i]WH[/i] and [i]CoT[/i]. If RJ had shown some discipline or gotten therapy for his female/minutia issues, WoT would have been a justifiable 10 books and this would be a non-issue.

But please, keep posting. I've enjoyed every rant :spank:

[Caligula_K]

[quote name='The Humble Asskicker' post='1742521' date='Apr 2 2009, 15.18']Brahm K,



It had considerably more momentum than its preceding volumes, but I agree that Elayne's plot line was sluggish and tedious. She comprised less than 20 percent of the book (still too high for anyone upon whom Elayne is inflicted, but anyway). Everyone else had their storyline picked up remarkably. Things actually happened, which seemed a miracle after non-events like book eight and ten, and almost nine too (if it hadn't the major event at its denouement). That is an example of almost 800,000 words where not much is accomplished and things just drag. Consider in turn all the things that must be accomplished and try fitting it into books that size.[/quote]

I recognize that there was more plot advancement in Knife of Dreams than in any book since Crown of Swords, but there still was a lot of filler. Not only Elayne's plotline- Perrin still did sit around saying that he was going to save Fayle before he actually did it in about ten pages- Mat still wandered around aimlessly for a while- and Egwene's plotline was barely advanced, when it should have been finished about 4 books ago. It was definitely an improvement, but for a book that huge... Not too much happened.



[quote]ASoS was around 425,000 words. According to GRRM, any longer and the book would have needed to be split in two. MoL threatens to be more for both volumes, should it be published in two. Possibly quite a bit more (not even Sanderson knows that one). That motherfucker is bloated - as you're using the word - but it's easily top five on best fantasy novels ever. Scientists and doctors say so, so it must be true.[/quote]

I recognize that long books can be good. But I think that excessive longness is the exact opposite of what Wheel of Time needs right now. If some things need to happen off screen, so be it; the book might be the better for it. This is more a problem of the series as a whole, but if you can't tell a story in twelve 800-1200 words books (paperback)... Something is ridiculously wrong. And while I'll admit that I can see Memory of Light needing two books, and while I can't comment on what the quality the writing is going to be... I can just think that if Leo Tolstoy could set up and execute War and Peace in one book, then a concise, talented writer can wrap up the Wheel of Time in two. And since word count doesn't really seem to be an issue in the reasons for the three book split, I still find the decision pretty weak.

[quote]But I'm just repeating myself, which I guess is okay because you are doing the same thing. It's the interminable nature of these debates, which seem to have less of an ending than WoT.[/quote]

You're right- no sense in us just repeating the same arguments over and over. We'll have to wait till the books are published. I really hope you're right. I hope all three books are amazing and that the crazily high word count was necessary.
But this series has had enough monumental bloat and pacing problems that it doesn't get the benefit of the doubt from me, or my money right out the gate anymore. Let's hope Sanderson can pull it off.

[mashiara]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1742699' date='Apr 3 2009, 00.38']A good book is always worth reading twice. You pick up so much more the second time.[/quote]

Totally agree with this. I'm not currently planning on rereading the whole series though. I did that two summers ago. I'll probably just reread the last couple of books.

This thread has been both sad and funny. Bottom line is, we get 3 more books whether we like it or not. I agree with Bronn, I don't think one average sized book would have contained the answers to all the plot-lines and subplots. Personally, I DO want to find out all the answers and I've been waiting too long to see how this story ends, so I'm going to buy the book(s) Sanderson puts out as soon as they are available. I'll grumble about them being 3 instead of 2 but I will get them and read them. I just hope I will enjoy them.