mormont Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 [mod] Discuss this politely, please. [/mod] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Asskicker Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Geddon, It does seem to be about the cost, otherwise people wouldn't complain. The accusers here believe that Tor wants more money, and they object to this, whether because they don't like the idea of Tor as a publishing business making more money, or because they don't want to give the money for three novels that will be probably more than twice the size of your average novel. Indeed, I understand the accusations of exploiting the fans that have been made here. Let me ask, then, to determine the culprit. Who thinks that Sanderson himself deliberately inflated the word count for money? Who thinks that he was encouraged by either Harriet or Tor to inflate the word count for money? Who thinks that greedy Tor, in the plausible event that the word count becomes larger, should have buckled down and published two large volumes that could be anywhere from 400,000 thousand words (reasonable) to 600,000 (unlikely but plausible)? And as a secondary question, who thinks that Tor, which has shareholders and everything, should be okay with the notion that they should make a move that will likely result in less profit? I just want to make sure I'm understanding the accusations here. Edit: Mormont, I was being polite. When I swear, I don't use the words to be coarse and offensive, but rather because swear words are an essential and fucking awesome component of the English lexicon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlingzen Bill Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 It just came to me that this series has a tendency to grow. I just hope the ending doesn't take as many books as we had up until the conclusion. 1 book then 2, now 1+2 books equals three, watch out when in expands to 5 or 6... if it goes to nine I am calling shennanagins... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
End of Disc One Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 [quote name='Arlington Bill' post='1741544' date='Apr 1 2009, 14.29']It just came to me that this series has a tendency to grow. I just hope the ending doesn't take as many books as we had up until the conclusion. 1 book then 2, now 1+2 books equals three, watch out when in expands to 5 or 6... if it goes to nine I am calling shennanagins...[/quote] There are always three more books left in the series, ever since it was first started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlingzen Bill Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 [quote name='End of Disc One' post='1741555' date='Apr 1 2009, 15.38']There are always three more books left in the series, ever since it was first started.[/quote] Tomorrow, Tomorrow, I'll finish it tomorrow, it's only three books away... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geddon Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 [quote name='The Humble Asskicker' post='1741541' date='Apr 1 2009, 20.28']Who thinks that Sanderson himself deliberately inflated the word count for money?[/quote] Unlikely, although it should be noted that Fantasy authors seem more susceptible than most to padding their novels with acres of pointless verbiage instead of aiming towards a lean style of storytelling. The later books of the WoT are the gold standard for this. If Sanderson suffers from this particular flaw then it is up to his editor to cut that word count back down, to force him to make the story more tightly focused. I don't think there is any evidence that Harriet tried this with Robert Jordan's work, so I doubt she is reigning back Sanderson. [quote name='The Humble Asskicker' post='1741541' date='Apr 1 2009, 20.28']Who thinks that he was encouraged by either Harriet or Tor to inflate the word count for money?[/quote] Again, they don't have to encourage, simply choosing not to limit Sanderson may well result in the size of the manuscript expanding beyond reasonable limits. [quote name='The Humble Asskicker' post='1741541' date='Apr 1 2009, 20.28']Who thinks that greedy Tor, in the plausible event that the word count becomes larger, should have buckled down and published two large volumes that could be anywhere from 400,000 thousand words (reasonable) to 600,000 (unlikely but plausible)?[/quote] Me. Or, rather, I think that TOR and Harriet should have told Sanderson to get it done in two 300,00-350,000 word books. [quote name='The Humble Asskicker' post='1741541' date='Apr 1 2009, 20.28']And as a secondary question, who thinks that Tor, which has shareholders and everything, should be okay with the notion that they should make a move that will likely result in less profit?[/quote] Me; the persuit of profit and the desire to satisfy shareholders does not excuse or justify any action. They could gain more profit by splitting AMoL into ten 100,000 word installments but it wouldn't be right for them to do so. There comes a point where they are just taking the piss, for me that point is three books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolverine Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Sorry to some of you...but...welcome to the real world. :smoking: Businesses, i.e., Tor, do things to make money. Sanderson probably writes because he loves to write. I hope his major concern is not how much money he is making, I hope it is just on how well he can finish writing the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publius Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 [quote name='Poobah' post='1741168' date='Apr 1 2009, 09.30']So Tor's just trying to earn an honest buck, but those evil union printers... *eyeroll*[/quote] No, that wasn't what I was trying to say. I was trying to point out that if your decisions are being made purely on the basis of making a profit, then there is no way that you're going to pay overtime to union printers. You're talking about thousands of additional dollars tacked onto the cost of the book. So my point was, if the argument is, that their trying to soak the fan for all their money, then they probably would have made more money if they waited to print The Gathering Storm rather than rush it. This leads me up to a quote I read by Gormenghast last night... [b]Hey where'd your post go???[/b] Basically he said that people who argue like I do, that Tor made a business decision were being naive because obviously the only decision that was made was to, soak us losers, aka WOT fans, for every cent we have. He went on to say that we were again naive to believe that they were paying OT to the printers. Because both GRRM and Erikson have yet to turn in their final copies of their novels and still have a Pub Date in Sept. As far as the Union Printers, the only reason why I brought them up I discussed above. I have no reason to believe that Sanderson is lying, so I'll believe him. As far as Erikson, I think that it is safe that Tor is going to print a couple more copies of AMOL than they are going to print of Eriksons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publius Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I think that Tor views Brandon Sanderson as a rising star, perhaps even the future face of the company. I know that a lot of people will disagree with me on that statement, but it's what I believe. So I think that Tor has monitored the fan reaction to other authors, Martin, Rothfuss, Lynch. I think that that may have been another reason to split it three ways. Tor and Sanderson really were stuck in a no win situation. They split the book in half, people complain because the book cuts out in the middle. If they publish one book with a new spine complete with a two-wheeler, people will complain about the size, the price, AND how long they had to wait. Any thoughts to any thoughts to any of this??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrddin Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 [quote name='wolverine' post='1742028' date='Apr 2 2009, 06.11']Sorry to some of you...but...welcome to the real world. :smoking: Businesses, i.e., Tor, do things to make money. Sanderson probably writes because he loves to write. I hope his major concern is not how much money he is making, I hope it is just on how well he can finish writing the series.[/quote] :agree: Seriously, people. Let it go. For once it'd be nice to discuss something that doesn't get polarized by someone latching onto minutia and blowing it out of proportion... Personally, I'm curious what the next book will cover. Brandon mentioned bringing something back from later in the un-cut manuscript to make the first book have more resolution to the storylines. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 [quote name='Myrddin' post='1742110' date='Apr 2 2009, 15.04']Seriously, people. Let it go. For once it'd be nice to discuss something that doesn't get polarized by someone latching onto minutia and blowing it out of proportion... Personally, I'm curious what the next book will cover. Brandon mentioned bringing something back from later in the un-cut manuscript to make the first book have more resolution to the storylines. Thoughts?[/quote] Moiraine's rescue. I think they need to get to that pretty quickly. It was already pushing it when Mat and Thom had a big discussion about it halfway through KoD and then totally forgot about it for the rest of the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrddin Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 [quote name='publius' post='1742040' date='Apr 2 2009, 06.25']I think that Tor views Brandon Sanderson as a rising star, perhaps even the future face of the company. I know that a lot of people will disagree with me on that statement, but it's what I believe. So I think that Tor has monitored the fan reaction to other authors, Martin, Rothfuss, Lynch. Any thoughts to any thoughts to any of this???[/quote] I think you have a good point here, about grooming Sanderson for the next Tor posterboy. He has something that our favorite authors around here are sorely lacking: He's prolific. Here's a guy that can pump out multiple books a year across the genres (he does YA too, right?). Hell, right now he's doing that and still finishing off the largest fantasy series to date. Including tGS, he'll have released 8 books in 4 years. I wish I had a quarter of his output... Yes, I've yet to enjoy a Sanderson book as much as Martin or Lynch or Abercrombie, but he's still young. GRRM didn't start GoT until his 40's and RJ started WoT in his 40's too, if I recall. Sanderson already has a better foundation than either of them and he's in his early 30's. I may not be a huge fan of his now, but in ten years, who knows what he'll pump out. ETA: Looking at wiki, it looks like Sanderson will be breaking into mutli volume fantasy soon with a project 10 book series called Way of Kings. Hopefully working on WoT will teach him something about letting the story get out of control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Stone Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 [quote name='Geddon' post='1741518' date='Apr 1 2009, 12.09']However just because you [i]can[/i] get away with doing something doesn't justify actually doing it. Put me in the camp that couldn't see how the story could be finished in one book, but who believe that splitting it into three instead of two is unreasonable and a blatant attempt to squeeze every last drop of profit out of fans of the series. Also I don't believe that this is entirely Tom Doherty's decision; TOR is owned by Holtzbrinck, one of the big six publishing corporations, and I'm sure pressure was put on him to spin the series out. The people who run Holtzbrinck couldn't care less about the WoT, Jordan's wishes or the fans, the only thing they read is balance sheets. THA, it has nothing to do with the cost, it is about objecting to TOR taking advantage of WoT fans. I simply don't believe the justifications they have offered for the three book plan so, to me, it just looks like they want three books worth of money for what should really be two books.[/quote] I think the decision to go with three books is more driven by the fact that the current estimate is at the very top end of two books. And the estimates keep growing. The last thing Tor would want to do is announce two now and have to announce later that two had become three. I think there is a lot less greed/malice going on here - and more plain old CYA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stego Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 [quote name='Myrddin' post='1742121' date='Apr 2 2009, 10.15']I think you have a good point here, about grooming Sanderson for the next Tor posterboy. He has something that our favorite authors around here are sorely lacking: He's prolific.[/quote] There's a reason for that. It's easy to plop out crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milk of the Poppy Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I have a question that is sort of related to the discussion in this topic. I have been reading up about the Amazon Kindle and similar electronic reading devices. My question is : if you order a portion of text for such a reader how will you get charged? In other words - would I pay the same amount of money for 3 portions of 250k words than for 1 portion of 750k words? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrddin Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 [quote name='Milk of the Poppy' post='1742177' date='Apr 2 2009, 08.01']I have a question that is sort of related to the discussion in this topic. I have been reading up about the Amazon Kindle and similar electronic reading devices. My question is : if you order a portion of text for such a reader how will you get charged? In other words - would I pay the same amount of money for 3 portions of 250k words than for 1 portion of 750k words?[/quote] I assume that the readers charge by book as published, so you'd pay for three books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caligula_K Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I really am surprised how easy and happily some people are taking this. If this were any other series, I could maybe understand people not caring, but this is the Wheel of Time, a series that has essentially exploited fans' time and money for the last ten years. There just comes a point where it's too much- where no amount of wanting to see how this monster is going to end will justify buying more and more padded out books. Most of this is all Jordan's fault, since book 11 failed to have anywhere near the amount of plot advancement it should have, choosing instead to focus on Elayne's pregnancy issues, and since he of course had dragged this series out for a long time before that. Still, I still see no reason why two books should be three, besides profit for Tor, and that's not a good enough reason, and I can't help that thing that Sanderson is going to bloat this thing; not because he wants to make more money (I don't blame him for that) but because the Wheel of Time and Harriet both seem to really hate concise storytelling. Profit does not justify all. If GRRM announced tommorow that ADWD was being split in two, either because it was too long or because Bantam decided to publish a book that could have been one in two installments, people would either be angry because the story was bloated, or because Bantam was being greedy- and rightfully so either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slurktan Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 [quote name='Werthead' post='1742117' date='Apr 2 2009, 10.10']Moiraine's rescue. I think they need to get to that pretty quickly. It was already pushing it when Mat and Thom had a big discussion about it halfway through KoD and then totally forgot about it for the rest of the book.[/quote] I would think that would have been in the first book regardless. It's fairly inconsequential to most of the goings on at this point so makes sense to get it out of the way. I'd guess the thing that got "brought back" from later will be the White Tower resolution. Have book 2 be the BT resolution and the alliance with the Seanchan and the start of the war and then in book 3 the shit has hit the fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolverine Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 The WoT books got me into fantasy, and reading in general, early in college. I have stuck with and enjoyed the series immensly, despite its flaws. I am wondering how many people have read the books more than once? How many plan on reading CoT before the next books. I have never read a fantasy series book more than once, but I have reread the endings to prep me for a new book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolverine Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 [quote name='Brahm_K' post='1742292' date='Apr 2 2009, 11.42']Profit does not justify all. If GRRM announced tommorow that ADWD was being split in two, either because it was too long or because Bantam decided to publish a book that could have been one in two installments, people would either be angry because the story was bloated, or because Bantam was being greedy- and rightfully so either way.[/quote] I bet a lot of readers would be ecstatic if it meant they would get to read the first part in a few months or sooner than if the book were not split. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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