NFL V - Turkey Day Edition.

[Mexal]

Chris Henry dies after accident

Tragic.

This is incredibly sad for me. I watched a guy come into this league with immense talent, realize some of that talent then destroy his career with immaturity and off the field troubles only to watch an organisation stand by him and for him to respond to it by changing his life. You don't see stories like that often and when you do, it feels good. To see his life, at 26, cut short like this just when he turned it around blows. And to leave 3 kids behind...

Real tough for me.

[L’Age d’or]

Henry had a lot of talent, and going like that after so much he and the bengals went through is just sad.

[Kalbear]

That's horrible. Very sorry for him and his three children. :(

[Rockroi]

Its night's like last night that this board needs Colts fans. Manning, yet again, goes house on another team, wins the game in semi-dramatic fashion and ... silence here. COME ON! The guy is a killer out there. Imagine if that had been Brady? I would have typed three pages just on Brady's hair!

[Maithanet]

Its night's like last night that this board needs Colts fans. Manning, yet again, goes house on another team, wins the game in semi-dramatic fashion and ... silence here. COME ON! The guy is a killer out there. Imagine if that had been Brady? I would have typed three pages just on Brady's hair!

The Colts are having a great season (duh.) I think I personally am tired of both the Colts and the Saints winning tight games. I mean, both teams have had almost surefire losses turned into wins (Patriots, Redskins, respectively), as well as numerous tight games that they have managed to pull out. I know that confidence, good coaching, etc is responsible for this, but the storyline feels sort of tired by week 15.

Ho Hum, Indy wins another tight game against an overmatched team playing surprisingly well. It's hard to get too excited about it the tenth time. Plus, the game was on the NFL network, which I don't get to watch.

Is it still too early to talk about an Undefeated Super Bowl? I personally think that either the Saints or the Colts are going to lose in the playoffs, but the possibility is starting to look downright plausible.

[Trebla]

Its night's like last night that this board needs Colts fans. Manning, yet again, goes house on another team, wins the game in semi-dramatic fashion and ... silence here. COME ON! The guy is a killer out there. Imagine if that had been Brady? I would have typed three pages just on Brady's hair!

Okay, I'll bite...

At what point do we start bringing out the "GREATEST TEAM OF ALLLLL TIME!!" when referring to the Colts and Saints?

If one or both go 16-0, I will really start believing. But at this point, both still have looked vulnerable and beatable. Also, the sorry shape of the league with some of the atrocious teams waters down the arguement. Still, both teams do have all the ingredients. Crazy, balanced offenses, sack happy, tunover causing defenses. A great QB and very good coaching.

[Mexal]

Okay, I'll bite...

At what point do we start bringing out the "GREATEST TEAM OF ALLLLL TIME!!" when referring to the Colts and Saints?

If one or both go 16-0, I will really start believing. But at this point, both still have looked vulnerable and beatable. Also, the sorry shape of the league with some of the atrocious teams waters down the arguement. Still, both teams do have all the ingredients. Crazy, balanced offenses, sack happy, tunover causing defenses. A great QB and very good coaching.

Sorry, I don't buy it. Way too many close games and games they should have lost. They got some incredible QBs and fantastic offensive weapons but greatest team of all time? Nah. I could easily see either team losing to a team built like Minnesota.

[Krafus]

For me, the Saints at least do not have an "unbeatable team" aura, not after that tight win against the Falcons last Sunday.

[Kalbear]

Neither team has been so dominant (especially against bad teams) that I'd say there the greatest team ever. Neither could hold a candle to the 2007 Pats, and this Colts team isn't nearly as dominant as the 2005 Colts team.

Though I will say that Manning is playing out of his mind. His numbers aren't as good as his best year, but the competition he's faced has been much stronger and the tools he has around him are much less. It's quite impressive.

Also, it's not that surprising that they had a close game; they basically sat Freeney and Mathis for most of the night. Those two are a huge component of the Colts defense.

[Jaxom 1974]

Sorry, I don't buy it. Way too many close games and games they should have lost. They got some incredible QBs and fantastic offensive weapons but greatest team of all time? Nah. I could easily see either team losing to a team built like Minnesota.

But what if one of them does run the table all the way through the Superbowl? What then? By it's most basic definition, 19-0 would equal the "Greatest Team of All Time", no? What if both make it to the Superbowl with spectacular playoff runs? Does that redeem either of them for you?

Obviously this is supposition, who can say what will actually happen, but I'm firmly in the camp of wanting both teams to play in February. :P

[Kalbear]

But what if one of them does run the table all the way through the Superbowl? What then? By it's most basic definition, 18-0 would equal the "Greatest Team of All Time", no? What if both make it to the Superbowl with spectacular playoff runs? Does that redeem either of them for you?

I'm going to say something vaguely controversial and claim that the greatest team of all time is not primarily defined by how many wins they got in the regular season.

The 72 Dolphins got lucky and had a very easy schedule. They were a good team - but they're not the best team ever. The 85 Bears certainly have a better claim on that, as do a couple of the 49er teams in the 80s. If we don't discount teams who didn't win the superbowl, the 2007 Pats are way up there too.

What's interesting is that neither NO or Indy have had particularly easy schedules. Indy plays the NFC West and the AFC East, and while Seattle and STL suck Arizona and SF are decent this year. The Saints play the AFC East, which is also not at all gimme wins and then the NFC East.

The telling point is how lucky both teams have had to be to get there. Indy had their Pats game and more 4th-quarter comebacks than anyone...ever. NO had that crazy Miami game and then Washington. Both teams clearly can be beat if the ball bounces the right way. The question is whether they will be. I think that if the Colts want to they will run the table; NYJ and Buffalo both should be good matchups. I think that the Saints may have a very hard game vs. Dallas.

[awesome possum]

I like the Colts, at least I want to like them. Peyton Manning is blazing through a career that will be the textbook example for all QBs from here on out and the Colts organization is very well run. They do tremendous things for the city and state of Indiana.

It's really hard to like them, though, when I'm stuck in the middle of "Colts Country" with a bunch of fans who don't even know who the QB was before Peyton Manning and who will conveniently forget about the team when Manning retires and they fall back into obscurity. If I remember correctly, they didn't even start selling out their old stadium - in the playoffs no less - until 2003 or 2004. Fair-weather fans who suddenly become die-hard fanatics when their team is good just annoy the hell out of me, and there seems to be no shortage of them all throughout the state.

That said, I think the Colts could run the table. As long as they don't fall behind by more than two scores, Peyton Manning seems to be able to score almost as will and the Colts D manages to gain momentum at the end of games. I think they should try to, because sitting their starters the last game of the season will surely doom them. One week off for the bye is enough, why take two weeks off and let the rust set in?

New Orleans will try, no doubt. But the Cowboys are desperate for a win. That will be a tough test.

[Jaxom 1974]

I'm going to say something vaguely controversial and claim that the greatest team of all time is not primarily defined by how many wins they got in the regular season.

The 72 Dolphins got lucky and had a very easy schedule. They were a good team - but they're not the best team ever. The 85 Bears certainly have a better claim on that, as do a couple of the 49er teams in the 80s. If we don't discount teams who didn't win the superbowl, the 2007 Pats are way up there too.

Kal, I'm not inclined to argue with your statement here. It's sports. There's always going to be debate regardless. But at it's most basic form, 19-0 has to equal "the greatest ever" simply because it hasn't been done. How it's done isn't necessarily going to be thought about when some kid looks up the stats of the best records in the NFL 20 years from now and he sees that 19-0. The assumption will be there on paper or a computer screen or whatever.

[Kalbear]

A lot of things haven't been done before, but that doesn't mean they define greatest ever. The assumption might be there - but that's the same assumption that says that Bradshaw was this amazing QB because he has 4 rings, or that a QB's winning record means the same thing as a pitcher's winning record.

[Ser Paladin]

best records in the NFL 20 years from now and he sees that 19-0.

Don't know if a 19-0 Colts team from 2009 will be regarded as the best team of all time, but Peyton will move to the front of the line for the best QB of all time if he drags this team to that record, and wins a second Super Bowl ring.

The 85 Bears and 73 Dolphins are the usual suspects if you look at a single year, but if you look at an era, the Colts of this Decade certainly have had as good a team as the Niners of the Montana Era, or arguably the Patriots of this decade.

[Trebla]

I thought this was amusing!! From The Danny Mac show in Chicago's 670 The Score

On the 12th day of Christmas the Bears they gave to me:

12 men on the field

11 wasted draft picks

10 yard cushions

9 points from Field goals

8 arm tackles

7 bad free agents

6 Prime Time losses

5 CUTLER PICKS!!!!!

4 false starts

3 yards per carry

2 men in motion

And a blown challenge by Lovie....

[Kalbear]

What's really impressive about the Colts is their continued success. It's pretty surprising. 7 years in a row with 12 wins or more. Playoffs for the last 8 years. I don't think any team ever has had this kind of repeated consistent run.

Part of that is Manning's unnaturally healthy streak; he has not missed a start or a game, and I think has only missed like two plays due to injury (like when he broke his jaw). That's not something most anyone can say. At the same time, it's astounding that despite the fairly large amount of turnover on a team they're still this consistent. Most teams have some off years from losing key personnel or having injury bad luck, but for the most part this hasn't stopped them one bit.

It's probably not just one guy, but Bill Polian's got to get a fair amount of credit for this; they've been very good at getting useful players in the draft at almost every level, keeping them around while paying them peanuts and then losing them a few years later. That's the really incredible bit; that they've done so well with their first round picks (since 2001: Wayne, Freeney, Clark, Sanders (who was a 2nd), Marlin Jackson (cornerback), Addai, Gonzalez, and Donald Brown). Of those only Marlin Jackson is likely a bad pick, though he did have a notable couple of plays. The rest have been at worst good players who have made a starting roster, and many are perennial pro-bowlers.

I'm curious - what other teams come close to that level of success at the top end this decade?

[Trebla]

It's just the Pats and Colts this decade. Yet even the Pats had that down year in '02, though I'm sure the Colts would rather have those 2 other rings the Pats have.

I think you nailed it when you pointed to their draft picks. They just continue to find the right payers to fit their system and they pay to keep the blue chip players. They never overpay a marginal player. They don't spend huge money on free agents, just their own. The Redskins are the prime example of doing the opposite of the Colts.

Now that I think of it, The Steelers belong in that arguement as well. And they also draft well and pay their own free agents.

I think you can somewhat compare this run to the Cowboys. They had TWENTY YEARS of winning season starting in the 60's and ending in the mid 80's. Not all of those teams made the playoffs since back then only 4 teams went but 20 years of at least 9 wins is a pretty remarkable feat.

[davos]

If one or both go 16-0, I will really start believing. But at this point, both still have looked vulnerable and beatable. Also, the sorry shape of the league with some of the atrocious teams waters down the arguement. Still, both teams do have all the ingredients. Crazy, balanced offenses, sack happy, tunover causing defenses. A great QB and very good coaching.

While regular season success is important for many of obvious reasons and team could be considered great following a weak regular season the truest measure of greatness is the playoffs. The greatest team I've seen during my football watching life, the 1989 49ers, went 14-2 in the regular season but had a number of close games that they found a way to pull off comeback wins in. When they hit the playoffs they took it to a whole other level, one that I'm not sure any team has reached yet, and simply destroyed every team they encountered (emblematic of this is John Elway on the sidelines late in one of the most complete thrashings ever delivered in a superbowl caught saying "unbelievable, unfucking believable"). compared that to the patriots of 2 years ago who played at a level above the rest of the league for much of the regular season but were clearly burned out and came back to earth by the playoffs. Yes, they managed to reach the superbowl but they were clearly not the team they had been in october. Their 16-0 season is a footnote in history because they could not carry through their regular season success in the playoffs. For either the Colts or Saints to be considered a great team they need to prove demonstrate it on the field in the playoffs.

[Bronn Stone]

The 1989 49ers were the best team of that dynasty, to be sure. But the 80's 49ers in general are the most overrated franchise in sports.

They played in one of the weakest divisions ever put together. And it remained weak throughout the decade. It was a five team division, so they got 6-8 easy games a season. There was never more than one other team good in that group at a time and often none.

Little known trivia fact - the 49ers never won a single playoff road game in any of their Super Bowl runs. Their cozy little division gave them home field advantage every time.

They were good. Really good. But don't really belong in the conversation with the great dynasties like the 70's Steelers and the 00's Patriots (blech).