[Book Spoilers] An Unexpected Death

[Zoren]

Crackpoit theory: Marillon has a twin brother Nolliram, who is a bard at King's Landing.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

Agree that the Kettleblacks will not make the show, no real need for them and would just add confusion.

But it is the youngest Kettleblack that confesses to the High Seton that he had sex with Margery (on Cersei's orders), get tortured and then confesses that not only did he have sex with Cersei, but he murdered the previous High Septon on Cersei's orders. This leads Cersei being arrested.

Also, Cersei sleeping with the Kettleblack who then becomes a Kingsguard is one of the reasons why Jaime does not seem to be inclined to come to her rescue.

The Kettleblacks are important to Cersei's downfall and cannot be left out.

[Goblonaut]

Is anyone else thinking it could be Jeor Mormont? Since I think they will be more focused on the nights watch, and tbh not very much happens north of the wall in ACoK, though with all the other story lines, would it be a bit rushed?

I def wanna see more half hand in the hbo adaptation! Probably the best swordsman of the north

[Dragonfish]

Is anyone else thinking it could be Jeor Mormont? Since I think they will be more focused on the nights watch, and tbh not very much happens north of the wall in ACoK, though with all the other story lines, would it be a bit rushed?

I def wanna see more half hand in the hbo adaptation! Probably the best swordsman of the north

Uhhh...the show's over, and Jeor Mormont is still alive. So I'm pretty sure he wasn't the unexpected death.

[The Anti-Targ]

But it is the youngest Kettleblack that confesses to the High Seton that he had sex with Margery (on Cersei's orders), get tortured and then confesses that not only did he have sex with Cersei, but he murdered the previous High Septon on Cersei's orders. This leads Cersei being arrested.

Also, Cersei sleeping with the Kettleblack who then becomes a Kingsguard is one of the reasons why Jaime does not seem to be inclined to come to her rescue.

The Kettleblacks are important to Cersei's downfall and cannot be left out.

But only 1. No need to cast a 2nd Kettleblack. The named cast list needs to be economised and they have to be pretty ruthless with minor characters.

So we're all agreed that it's Marillon's tongue that unexpectedly dies. Actually what that means is Marillon gets to live longer in the TV series, albeit without ever making a reappearance. If he can;t sing, he can;t go beack to the Eyrie and become a favoured minstrel of Lyssa and Robert's. So he can't be framed for Lysa's murder.

[Myrddin]

Considering I didn't connect Marillon as being the same bard who followed Cat to the Vale until being reminded on this forum, I can safely attest to the connection being irrelevant to the overall plot. :)

Using one actor as two in one bards in season 1 is pretty smart economics. They can some other "Roz" bard come season 3(or 4)

[Frumpus]

I really don't agree. Roose and Ramsay are one of the claimants to the North after Robb dies. Cutting them out would severely affect future plotlines involving the North.

Well the producers must disagree with this otherwise Roose Bolton would have been a featured extra in S1.

The fact that we have to accept is that beyond the first season there will be significant plot changes in order to condense everything into ten episode seasons.

[Padraig]

Well the producers must disagree with this otherwise Roose Bolton would have been a featured extra in S1.

Not really. Its clear that Roose wasn't a significant character in S1 but that doesn't mean he can't be introduced in S2. Its clear that he does have a significant enough role in S2 and any S3. They might want somebody significant to play him rather than a featured extra.

While changes will continue to happen, I prefer to focus on likely changes rather than jump to conclusions based on not hearing about a character been cast yet. We did this already before S1 when people worried about Greatjon, Aemon and several other characters.

[Asha—Not Yara!]

I feel pretty confident they didn't cast Bolton for season 1 because with Sean Bean, Harry Lloyd, Robert Addy, and Jason Momoa out of the picture, they'll have the time and budget to get a really strong actor for him.

[Eustace Black]

I wonder how they'll handle a mute Marillon, if at all.

I feel pretty confident they didn't cast Bolton for season 1 because with Sean Bean, Harry Lloyd, Robert Addy, and Jason Momoa out of the picture, they'll have the time and budget to get a really strong actor for him.

Mark Baratheon.

[Mother of Dragons]

Did we ever establish who got whacked early? I didn't catch it.

I'd hate for too much of the story to get spliced, they should split book 3 into 2 seasons or just film more episodes. I'm sure with the surge in popularity, the production will bring in more money and the budget can increase.

It just seems that the little details are so important to the book. I'm glad at least that Martin takes an active role in the production...

Who wants to bet the next books will have release dates coinciding with the upcoming seasons? My belief is that this last book was delayed bc of the HBO production more than anything else. I'm sure a chunk of the next book is done too, with the chapters he had to move over.

[Sega AM2]

Did we ever establish who got whacked early? I didn't catch it.

Marillion. The singer in the books who accompanies Cat and Tyrion from the Inn of the Kneeling Man to the Eyrie. In the books he stays at the Eyrie because Lysa loves his singing even though Robert her son hates his songs.

Later in the books we see that Marillion tries to rape Sansa and that we hear that he has likely raped, or at least tried to rape, servants in the castle amongst others. Littlefinger orders Alayne watched over during his wedding because he suspects that Marillion will make a move and sure enough he does. Lysa refuses to believe that Marillion is a rapist or harasser and chastises anyone who suggests that he be removed from the royal castle.

Eventually Lysa summons Marillion to sing loudly to drown out the murder of Sansa as Lysa wants to hurl the young wolf from the moon door. Of course the loud singing ends up masking Littlefinger throwing Lysa out herself as well as her insane confessions. And Marillion is seized for killing Lysa, thrown into a sky cell to sing for days, until he 'takes the blue' and leaps to his death.

A minor character in GRRM's world with a great story.

In D&D's world he rides with Cat and Tyrion to the Eyrie. Then magically makes his way to King's Landing for no reason. Then sings a song about "Robert and the Lion in his Bed" and boy-king Joffrey has his tongue pulled out. On the show we don't see him actually die but it is assumed that he is dead. Even more odd is that in the books he dies in AFFC which is book number four. D&D (and even GRRM?) said that the character who dies died in ASOS which is book three. So not only are they changing GRRM's work for no reason but they can't even keep track of the books.

*cue the apologists who will argue that D&D's world is just as good as GRRM's and that all changes are as good as the books.

[Asha—Not Yara!]

The mistake about which book Marillion died it was an honest mistake that Martin himself made. I don't see Marillion having to "magically" make his way to King's Landing. Theoretically he could have left with Catelyn and Rodrik and once on the King's Road they went their separate ways, he back to King's Landing and Catelyn with Rodrik to meet up with Robb.

I'd have preferred they kept Marillion's story the same, but as he's a minor character, I can't get too fussed about it.

[Arrogant Bastard]

In D&D's world he rides with Cat and Tyrion to the Eyrie. Then magically makes his way to King's Landing for no reason. Then sings a song about "Robert and the Lion in his Bed" and boy-king Joffrey has his tongue pulled out. On the show we don't see him actually die but it is assumed that he is dead. Even more odd is that in the books he dies in AFFC which is book number four. D&D (and even GRRM?) said that the character who dies died in ASOS which is book three. So not only are they changing GRRM's work for no reason but they can't even keep track of the books.

I don't think Marillon ever made it to the Eyrie in the show, he's last seen on the road with Cat and Tyrion when they're attacked by the hill tribe. I don't think it's that big of a stretch that he went from that road to King's Landing. Also, I don't think D&D ever said that a character from book 3 died early in the series, that only came from GRRM to my knowledge.

Also, it's possible that they kept him out of the Eyrie for production reasons or something. The actor may not have signed on to appear in two years for season 3, so having him stay at the Eyrie wouldn't have worked. In the first book there was a singer that performed in front of Joffrey and was given a choice of his tongue or his hands, and if they couldn't use Marillon in a later season (just a guess) why not have him replace that singer and lose his tongue this season. I enjoyed that scene at least. And for the show, it's not essential that Marillon is at the Eyrie in two years, he can be replaced by another singer or something else.

[Davos' Middle Finger]

But only 1. No need to cast a 2nd Kettleblack. The named cast list needs to be economised and they have to be pretty ruthless with minor characters.

I agree that only one Kettleblack is needed; for the show's purposes the other two are redundant.

[Padraig]

Who wants to bet the next books will have release dates coinciding with the upcoming seasons? My belief is that this last book was delayed bc of the HBO production more than anything else. I'm sure a chunk of the next book is done too, with the chapters he had to move over.

GRRM may re-write what he has already written. We just don't know. But even if he remains happy with the material, its only around 100 manuscript pages. ADwD had 1500 such pages. So he has a lot to write either way.

The next book might be released to coincide with the TV series but then, the series is now so big that it wouldn't matter hugely. And if the book was delayed because of the TV series, well, the TV series isn't going away. :)

*cue the apologists who will argue that D&D's world is just as good as GRRM's and that all changes are as good as the books.

There is a difference between apologists and realists. Nobody should expect a TV series to have anything remotely close to as many characters as a spralling book series. Having 1 singer instead of 2 is a minor thing.

[Darth Dragonstone]

But only 1. No need to cast a 2nd Kettleblack. The named cast list needs to be economised and they have to be pretty ruthless with minor characters.

So we're all agreed that it's Marillon's tongue that unexpectedly dies. Actually what that means is Marillon gets to live longer in the TV series, albeit without ever making a reappearance. If he can;t sing, he can;t go beack to the Eyrie and become a favoured minstrel of Lyssa and Robert's. So he can't be framed for Lysa's murder.

Don't underestimate the importance of Kettleblacks. Without them, interesting parts of the realm-wide intrigue start to wither.

The Kettleblacks are Littlefinger's men. Without them, Baelish has no eye on Cersei, Joffrey, the small council, etc..... basically, the Kettleblacks keep Baelish viable as a player. with them, he knows what's happening in Kings Landing and can have direct influence on events; without them, he is simply not a player in Kings Landing and can only a factor in the Vale.

[Werthead]

GRRM apparently confirms that Maggo was the premature death.

"I loved the scene of Drogo ripping out Mago's throat… But that's going to have ramifications if we go the full length down the pike. This is the challenge the shows face as we go forward. There will be divergences, they're trying to be faithful and [Game of Thrones producers] David Benioff and Dan Weiss are doing a wonderful job. But the books are plotted so intricately that you do step on a butterfly in season one and in season four you're going to have to deal with that."

And more:

So Mago is not dead in the books.

And, in fact, he’s going to be a recurring character in Winds of Winter. He’s a particularly nasty bloodrider to one of the other Khals that’s broken away after Drogo dies.

This is the challenge the shows face as we go forward. There will be divergences, they’re trying to be faithful and Dan and David are doing a wonderful job. But the books are plotted so intricately that you do step on a butterfly in season one and in season four you’re going to have to deal with that. There’s also another character, [the singer] Marillion, who also got his tongue ripped out in season one, and that doesn’t happen with the books. Joffrey makes that decision, but it’s an unnamed bard. Marillion [has more to do]. We ought to call it The Tongue Effect instead of The Butterfly Effect.

[Abaddon]

Well well well. That makes a lot more sense, although there was obviously confusion about what book the character dies in...

I would imagine they can invent a new character to take his place, without losing anything too important. The new character can be an anonymous bloodrider who would still have had some interaction with Dany and I can't imagine it being that different, since the character in the books had very little to distinguish him from other Dothraki.

[Saulot]

GRRM apparently confirms that Maggo was the premature death.

You know, I was just reviewing the Daenerys section of Storm of Swords' appendix (since I don't have Dance yet and I wanted to recall the characters in her storyline), and I noticed Maggo listed as a bloodrider to another khal. Then I remembered that he was killed in the show, and I got excited and rushed over here... only to find out it already here. :lol:

Edit: Wait, actually wasn't the premature death supposed to be someone who actually ends up dying in Storm of Swords? While Mago has not actually died in the novels?