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White Luck Warrior VII


Curethan

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My take on that, purely from what I read in the books:

Sammi; 90%

Ajokli: 5% but then only because of the scene with him at his statue, and the fact that there is a creepiness and additional knowledge to the voice that could mean it's more than just Sammi.

Kellhus: Definitly not IMO. Makes no sense to me. The voice even refers to Kellhus in third person.

Consult: 5% because of the same reason as Ajokli.

Other Gods: No, don't think so.

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The secret voice: I honestly doubt it's sammi - isn't it what drove Kelmomas to murder Sammi? I'll have to reread it, but I'm disappearing for two weeks and I won't have my books with me.

I read the whole Kellhus vs GODS thing as them being angered at him being a false prophet. They don't see his attack on the Consult - They see him pretending to be a god, while in fact being a blasphemer. They don't see the sranc, or the Inchoroi, but they do see a man taking over what is rightfully theirs.

The whole "The Tusk is a consult invention" thing is an awesome moment by Bakker there. Holy shit is the entire series put in a new light.

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Yeah, let's just say we've talked about it and it's not like Kelmomas is a particularly reliable narrator.

This

Remember, pretty much the very FIRST line of the new series (apart from the traveler prologue) tells us one of the most important pieces of information, something we should always keep in mind. Kelmomas has just been whelmed. We have no observations of him or from his perspective from before Kellhus remolded his mind and personality to Kellhus' designs. The character himself is conditioned. :)

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The secret voice: I honestly doubt it's sammi - isn't it what drove Kelmomas to murder Sammi? I'll have to reread it, but I'm disappearing for two weeks and I won't have my books with me.

Yes, this is what happened, but I don't think it eliminates the possibility in question. There's something very creepy going on with the Kelmomas/Samarmas dynamic. After birth, they spend a ridiculously unusual amount of time doing nothing but stare at each other, until suddenly Kelmomas snaps out of it as an evil genius, while his twin comes out stupid. It's almost like Kelmomas absorbs Samarmas's soul, and now it's rattling around inside his head. I'm not saying that this is exactly what I think happened, but something along those lines does seem possible. Think about it; how is possible that a half-dunyain set of identical twins could have one genius and one idiot? Something abnormal happened between those two.
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My understanding was that Samarmas was just Down's Syndrome. That's how his description always read to me. Seems possible. For my part, I still think it's the Consult, as it seems hellbent on fucking things up for Esmenet.

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There's something very creepy going on with the Kelmomas/Samarmas dynamic. After birth, they spend a ridiculously unusual amount of time doing nothing but stare at each other, until suddenly Kelmomas snaps out of it as an evil genius, while his twin comes out stupid. It's almost like Kelmomas absorbs Samarmas's soul, and now it's rattling around inside his head

This is exactly what I think is the case.

There was also some remark about Kelmomas' name, or something from Esmenet's side, it was in WLW, some reference to an event that happened in the past with a Kelmomas, also to do with twins, we've discussed it but I've forgotten what it was. Something that made her very apprehensive.

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There was also some remark about Kelmomas' name, or something from Esmenet's side, it was in WLW, some reference to an event that happened in the past with a Kelmomas, also to do with twins, we've discussed it but I've forgotten what it was. Something that made her very apprehensive.

Original Celmomas had a stillborn twin, and IIRC it was said the twin's soul was always with him. So, yes, I think it is Sami.

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So I was thinking about the Tusk. Where would the Consult get a giant piece of ivory from? I'm thinking it's a dragon-horn.

Also, did we ever get any conspiracy theories together on why Nonman mansions have trees outside them, even though Bakker has said Nonmen don't hold trees sacred? The mansion that Kellhus comes across in Darkness and the one the one in TTT both have gigantic trees. And then there's the No-God with his tree.

Another question I just thought of, is the Probability Trance procedurally generated? Do the Dunyain possess explicit equations for the world? Or are the scenarios generated by the probability-trance some manner of brute-force heuristic mechanism?

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Kelmomas might have somehow ended up with two souls. Or more (four?). There's a reference latter by the witch daughter of Kelhus (sorry, I'm bad with names) that suggests dunyain have two souls (which probably ties into a watcher and watched - letting them exist purely by their own will/duopoly?). Unless they all come out as twins and one dies (some freaky dunyain thing), if they have two souls each and Kelmomas took Sami's souls...

After birth, they spend a ridiculously unusual amount of time doing nothing but stare at each other, until suddenly Kelmomas snaps out of it as an evil genius, while his twin comes out stupid.

Yeah, and Kelhus was supposed to have brought in a slave who was good at seperating such events (which suggests it has happened before)? Kelhus, he who is all mary sue powerful? That was weird - can't see why he couldn't do it, or why he would show the inability on his own part.

Also, did we ever get any conspiracy theories together on why Nonman mansions have trees outside them, even though Bakker has said Nonmen don't hold trees sacred? The mansion that Kellhus comes across in Darkness and the one the one in TTT both have gigantic trees. And then there's the No-God with his tree.

I'd think they just left small trees to grow wild, after they went mad. But they could be a means of consult spying, granted.

Another question I just thought of, is the Probability Trance procedurally generated? Do the Dunyain possess explicit equations for the world? Or are the scenarios generated by the probability-trance some manner of brute-force heuristic mechanism?

I'd assume a chess like future move calculation process, based on a set of assumed rules.

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Yeah, and Kelhus was supposed to have brought in a slave who was good at seperating such events (which suggests it has happened before)? Kelhus, he who is all mary sue powerful? That was weird - can't see why he couldn't do it, or why he would show the inability on his own part.

obviously this 'slave' was a dunyain.
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Ciogli, the one called Mountain, stood upon the carcass of Wutteat, the Father of Dragons, beating down Bashrag with hammer and fist, only to be felled by a lone, impossible arrow, which had found the slit in his cauldron-sized helm.

No answers yet on how Wutteat survived his broken neck.

Nin’janjin leapt from the monstrosity’s back, his spear poised high, running Cu’jara Cinmoi through, and a moan passed through the Host of Nine Mansions, and the very earth seemed to stagger.

Nin'janjin was riding Sil? Lol, wat.

As to the rest of the story, Conphas torturing our crazy Nonman, meh. Stabbing the dude's eye seems a little too straight-forward for something Conphas would do, I dunno.

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Took me a few rereads, but the Nonman dude is tossing his daughter off a cliff right? As she dies of the womb-plague. This can't be due to Erraticism, it hasn't been the passage of aeons yet. So why does he do it?

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Some weird shit, described as vaguely as possible, at the very edge of understanding the text.

Great imagination though. So he is holding his daughter but his wife is also there? If not, who says to him:

That is the sole curse of the Ishroi, she hissed. To only hope they had fathered their sons!

No idea who the human leader/torturer is.

So this is the battle in which Ninjanin kills Cujara Cinmoi. Great detail about the monstrous Inchoroi king strapping Cujara Cinmoi to his shield. In this battle Ciogli also falls, so this in the last stages of the Cunu-Inchoroi wars. Wutteat is dead here, but presumably us seeing him alive in White Luck Warrior could have to do with his mechanical nature. Sil's Heron Spear is shown to be effective enough to wipe Quya mages of the sky, so it not only works against the No-God.

Took me a few rereads, but the Nonman dude is tossing his daughter off a cliff right? As she dies of the womb-plague

Could be Womb Plague, could also be that it's a reference to her having been raped. I expect he kills her because she has no future. But to be honest I thought that the description was such that the child was already dead when he was being burned at the stake.

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The secret voice: I honestly doubt it's sammi - isn't it what drove Kelmomas to murder Sammi? I'll have to reread it, but I'm disappearing for two weeks and I won't have my books with me.

If you are a genius trapped inside your brother, would you really want to look at the simpleton left-over of your body? For all we know, Sammi maybe needs to destroy his original body to have his full strength. These two factors combined make it perfectly plausible to me that Sammi would kill "himself". Plus he knew what Esmenet's reaction would be.

I'm still open to the possibility that the voice could be any of the other agents mentioned though as this is Bakker.

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Some weird shit, described as vaguely as possible, at the very edge of understanding the text.

Great imagination though. So he is holding his daughter but his wife is also there? If not, who says to him:

No idea who the human leader/torturer is.

So this is the battle in which Ninjanin kills Cujara Cinmoi. Great detail about the monstrous Inchoroi king strapping Cujara Cinmoi to his shield. In this battle Ciogli also falls, so this in the last stages of the Cunu-Inchoroi wars. Wutteat is dead here, but presumably us seeing him alive in White Luck Warrior could have to do with his mechanical nature. Sil's Heron Spear is shown to be effective enough to wipe Quya mages of the sky, so it not only works against the No-God.

Could be Womb Plague, could also be that it's a reference to her having been raped. I expect he kills her because she has no future. But to be honest I thought that the description was such that the child was already dead when he was being burned at the stake.

He's got several visions going on. His wife is talking to him and he's remembering how they used to fight, and how his wife cheated on him. There's a separate vision where he's tossing his daughter off a cliff. Then during the present, he's in Nansur, some girl was feeding him - and because she reminded him of his daughter whom he loved - he murders the girl so he can remember her. The humans capture him and decide to burn him, but Conphas comes by and decides he wants to play with the Nonman first.

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