assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Btw, do we know where Jeyne went to receive her "training"?Pretty sure it was one of Littlefinger's ... establishments.Thinking on the Pink Letter, I think options are:1. Ramsay wrote it as a desperate bluff, possibly even after losing the battle. Or Manderly has tricked Ramsay into thinking that Stannis lost.2. Theon wrote it (possibly learning side info on Mance in some other way, possibly in collusion with Mance) to get Jon away to prevent him from recognizing that Arya's a fake.I do not think Stannis himself wrote it.It's plausible, if we can answer these questions:I- Where does Theon get a hold of pink wax for the seal?2- Does Theon know about Val, and Mance's son, or even Mance's real name (he calls him abel in this chapter)? (I can't remember what Mance told Theon in ADWD, but I don't think so)3- Theon is a prisoner and in chains, can we see Stannis letting him roam freely enough to wrote a letter and steal a raven?4- Do we think The Theon we see in this chapter capable of such devious and calculated thinking?5- Would a guilt ridden Theon, one who thinks he deserves death for killing young innocent boys, risk Jon's life simply to avoid the relief (his word) of death?I think a lot of this depends on when Theon would have written it. Or maybe I'm completely full of shit. One of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arataniello Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Btw, do we know where Jeyne went to receive her "training"?This chapter is the first time it has been explicitly stated it was in a whorehouse. It could have been any of the ones in King's Landing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Btw, do we know where Jeyne went to receive her "training"?Yep, Littlefinger said he would take care of Jeyne when Cersei wanted Jeyne kept away from Sansa. Littlefinger owns brothels (or is that just in the TV show). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 About the pink wax on the letter ... wasn't it a "smear of wax", not a full seal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sun Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 About the pink wax on the letter ... wasn't it a "smear of wax", not a full seal?I honestly can't recall. But it's the colour of wax, not necessarily the seal, that I think is significant, considering it was specifically highlighted as a characteristic in ADWD. One more point; Am I misremembering? Wasn't the handwriting of the pink letter described as childish or erratic or something like that? If so, it could point to 3-fingers-missing Theon writing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 About the pink wax on the letter ... wasn't it a "smear of wax", not a full seal?I believe so, yes. If Stannis is victorious, it's possible that Theon might actually have the opportunity to write the letter from inside Winterfell itself, and possibly with Mance. If Stannis, fresh off a victory where Theon could very well have helped him, decides to spare Theon (who up to this point wouldn't have minded being killed), it might make Theon try that much harder to avoid Jeyne's detection. Asking Jon to bring down Selyse, Shireen and Melisandre might also help to pull off the deception: The royal women, or at least Selyse, might notice Jeyne's decidedly common mannerisms and get suspicious, and of course Melisandre might ferret out an impostor. Mance throws his two cents in — "I just want Val and my baby" — and feeds Theon some other details, and boom, collusion. Theon wouldn't really even be risking Jon's life because if anything, Jon would just march to Winterfell to find that Stannis had already taken it. By the time the "confusion" is cleared up, Massey and "Arya" are already on the way to Braavos and no one's the wiser.Really though, I just reread the Christmas Gift and Theon is quoting stuff right out of the letter. Either he knows Ramsay really, really, really well, or he's the one who wrote it. He also explicitly says how risky it is to bring Jeyne to Castle Black because Jon would know a fake immediately. So what do you do? Take Jon (temporarily at least) out of the equation.Plus, it sort of makes Jon's "assassination" that much more ironic if its impetus was a letter from Jon's own "side."ETA: Sun's right. The handwriting's kind of loopy. It also doesn't include Ramsay's signature flayed skin piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 I honestly can't recall. But it's the colour of wax, not necessarily the seal, that I think is significant, considering it was specifically highlighted as a characteristic in ADWD.What I meant but not clearly wrote was: if it was not a regular dot of wax, with a seal in it, then it could be a sign that the letter was fake. Someone could have taken another letter from Bolton and re-used that pink wax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Jon has already read a letter from Ramsay. I guess he would recognize his hand-writing.And I don't see Clydas or Bowen winning awards in the handwriting-forgery department.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fassreiter Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 I don't think Theon knew about Abel = Mance during the Winterfell escape, if he wrote the letter, he must have learned that Abel = Mance after he had left Winterfell. There is nothing in his POV that he knew who Mance was when they rescued Arya, and no hints that the two of them had a secret letter writing plan.I think the almost exact quote from Theon about the bride and the Reek leaves almost only two options concerning the pink letter:1. Ramsay wrote it (I don't like that)2. Theon wrote it with the help of some information he got after he arrived in Stannis' camp: Asha, Bran, Massey or Stannis might have been intentionally or unintentionally helpful in providing that piece of info concerning Mance (I like that, so it has to be true)This, sadly, puts an end to the coded letter theory, I think. Pfft.And I think this Massey guy is fishy somehow. About the pink letter's demand for 'hostages': Hasn't Massey been involved in a lot of Stannis' councils, been present at Mance's 'execution' and the burning/sacrifice of the cannibals? There has been an awful lot of talk about waking dragons by way of burning 'royalty'. Maybe he shared some info on that? And what does Ramsay care about definitions of kingship, that guy is crazy anyway.Maybe he wants a dragon for himself? With his demands being fulfilled, he would have two kingly children, two kingly related women and one witch to do all that magic sacrifice stuff. And maybe even some kings, who knows :( It's said there is a dragon beneath Winterfell, right?And Massey seems a bit too ambitious, wants to marry all kinds of princesses, and he seems to know a lot of secret stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sun Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 What I meant but not clearly wrote was: if it was not a regular dot of wax, with a seal in it, then it could be a sign that the letter was fake. Someone could have taken another letter from Bolton and re-used that pink wax. I see. Yes, very plausible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuisDantas Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Could it not be that Stannis intercepted the letter Robb sent home declaring Jon his heir?My thoughts exactly. I hope that is the case, for I can easily see Jon accepting once he is made aware that it was Robb's will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tini Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 I can easily see Stannis turning on Jon if he intercepted that letter. At the very least he will not renew the offer of Winterfell to Jon. He has this weird viewpoint that he is the rightful King of Westeros, and he refused to ally with Robb when Robb declared himself king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sun Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Jon has already read a letter from Ramsay. I guess he would recognize his hand-writing.And I don't see Clydas or Bowen winning awards in the handwriting-forgery department....Unless the first letter from Bolton was written in a Maester's hand, which I think is likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night's Scotch Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Its going to be hard for Manderly to come to stanis's side. How will he convince him that davos is still alive? I never thought of how stanis would fill about him faking his death. I'd think that Davos has given him some piece of information or way to signal Stannis that he can be trusted. Also:"You are dead men, understand that," the king went on. "Only the manner of your dying remains to be determined. You would be well advised not to waste my time with denials. Confess, and you shall have the same swift end that the Young Wolf gave Lord Rickard. Lie, and you will burn. Choose." Stannis may have just uttered my favorite lines to have ever come out of his mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 He faked Davos' death to get his son back from the Lannisters and Freys, and the point of the Frey pie deception was to feed them to the Boltons and the Freys.Cracking jokes about the Rat Cook seems to me like a man who doesn't really expect to survive his revenge.But still, if he truly didn't care for his own safety, wouldn't he like to let the Freys know that they have just devoured his kin? Would he risk to die alone in the snow without anoyone ever knowing his deed? And is he the kind of man that would take all of his men to die with him just because he's tired of living? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 I can easily see Stannis turning on Jon if he intercepted that letter. At the very least he will not renew the offer of Winterfell to Jon. He has this weird viewpoint that he is the rightful King of Westeros, and he refused to ally with Robb when Robb declared himself king.I don't understand, he twice expressed that he wants Jon to be the Lord of Winterfell. Wouldn't he be glad if a letter from someone he doesn't have to fear (who is dead) helped in what he (Stannis) wants?The letter that is talked about in the gift chapter has a seal of black wax. It probably is a letter from Jon at the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Then do the deed yourself, Your Grace." The chill in Asha's voice made Theon shiver in his chains. "Take him out across the lake to the islet where the weirwood grows, and strike his head off with that sorcerous sword you bear. That is how Eddard Stark would have done it. Theon slew Lord Eddard's sons. Give him to Lord Eddard's gods. The old gods of the north. Give him to the tree." How does Asha know what Ned would have done? Does she know about him from Theon or is this someone speaking through her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Turtle Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 How does Asha know what Ned would have done? Does she know about him from Theon or is this someone speaking through her?Well, it may be only well known fact that Lords of Winterfell kill the criminals this way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sun Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 How does Asha know what Ned would have done? Does she know about him from Theon or is this someone speaking through her?Intriguing. Especially the description of Asha's delivery of the line: "The chill in Asha's voice made Theon shiver in his chains".ETA: If someone is speaking through her, I'd rather it be Bloodraven than Bran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Question: do you think Stannis will do what Asha suggests, give Theon to the tree?That would constitute a massive riot and probably a break-up with Melisandre - and with his wife and probably with his men, the chanters for R'hlor.Melisandre as well as Selyse are depicted as hard core fans of R'hlor. They want to burn every weirwood in sight to honor the Red God.Would Stannis really do this? :frown5: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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