Martin/Zimmerman III

[Lord Mord]

Robin Hill,

Just because someone was killed, doesn't automatically mean someone is guilty.

Who has said otherwise? You might want to try being a bit more specific to the case if you intend to make a general inference.

[Greywolf2375]

Once more. A dead body with a hole in it, is not necessarily evidence of a crime. Florida's SYG basically permits the use of deadly force if a person reasonably believes his life is in danger or that he is in danger of being grievously harmed. If the police believed Zimmerman's account, they couldn't simply decide to arrest him just in case he wasn't telling the truth.

What we think should have happened because it seems right, is not necessarily what the law states. If you want to blame someone, blame the authors of a law so broad, it could apply if someone jumped out of the bushes and said boo!

So the only FL law that applies in this situation is the SYG? To the exclusion of everything else - yes, that makes sense. No, we can blame the authors of the law, but we can also blame the PD for not doing their due diligence.

[Seli]

Your original statement he was "clearly unarmed" is based on information obtained afterward. Whether Zimmerman believed Martin was armed, isn't relevant under SYG. You're arguing how things should be, not how they actually are.

Apparently, and in this I am listening to someone who practices law in Florida with the occasional criminal defence case (in an other forum) , SYG does not apply in this case.

[Robin Of House Hill]

I guess we'll find out if it goes to trial.

[G.S]

Really? I outweigh Floyd Mayweather Jr. by 100 lbs, and I have no doubt that he could kill me without much trouble. And a gun does little good if it's holstered and i'm already engaged in hand to hand combat.

This was my earlier point Tempra, this guy would have us beleive that is exactly what happened, also the fact that noone seemed to be aware of this fight until after it looked like zimmerman would get into trouble?

Also how can it be standing your ground when your unlawfully in someone else's backyard? The quote from Robin would have ruled that out.

Sorry but the police had plenty imo to warrant a homicide investigation heck demand it even since so much just doesn't add up.

[Kalbear]

The other issue is that of reasonable force; in a similar case a person using a knife in a fistfight was not considered reasonable and the life vein in danger was not considered reasonable, and it was instead called and convicted manslaughter.

Self defense does not automatically mean allowance of deadly force, and a fist fight does not legally give the right to escalate to firearms use.

[Robin Of House Hill]

The interesting thing is that the prosecution is going to have to produce sufficient evidence to convict. There isn't all that much evidence in the case, as far as has been made known, and the defendant is not compelled to testify. If it goes to trial, it will be educational. I hope the trial is televised. I'm not sure if florida permits trials to be televised.

[felice]

They've got a dead body, a gun, and Zimmerman's admission that he shot Martin. Sounds like pretty overwhelming evidence to me! Surely the onus is on Zimmerman to present a compelling justification for being exonerated on the grounds of self defence? Refusing to testify would hardly help his case.

[Vrana]

SYG does not apply in this case.

Tricky law that one. http://www.justiceformarissa.blogspot.se/

[Howdyphillip]

The interesting thing is that the prosecution is going to have to produce sufficient evidence to convict. There isn't all that much evidence in the case, as far as has been made known, and the defendant is not compelled to testify. If it goes to trial, it will be educational. I hope the trial is televised. I'm not sure if florida permits trials to be televised.

You are really speaking from an uninformed position here. There is plenty of evidence to convict on manslaughter charges, but when people accurately point this out to you, you put your virtual hands over your virtual ears and start singing LA LA LA LA LA at the top of your virtual head..

Zimmerman was found with an unarmed dead person that he shot on private property that was not his own. and yes, as has been pointed out to you over and over again, an unarmed corpse and a confession of creating that said corpse is probable cause for an arrest. Even if there is SYG laws, an arrest is certainly not off the table here with or without witnesses.

Now, the murder 2 charges seems to almost everyone in knowledge of the law to be something that can not be proven in a court of law with the evidence submitted with the affidavit. That does not mean that it will be impossible nor even improbable for a manslaughter conviction,

[Maia]

Tricky law that one. http://www.justicefo...sa.blogspot.se/

OMG! If true, this is just monstrous.

It seems that in Florida if as white/hispanic man you kill a minor after stalking him you won't even get arrested without massive public pressure, but if as a black woman you shoot in the air to stop a man who has already gravely battered you on several occasions (and it has been officially documented), has just bodily assaulted you and is currently threatening to kill you, you'd wander behind bars for more than a year and would be looking at 20 in prison? While the batterer/abuser/attempted murder is walking free? _That's_ supposed to be a justice system? LOL.

[Nukelavee]

Hey, Robin, quick question:

Are you discussing whether or not you feel Zimmerman is guilty guilty guilty, or the actual odds this case will make the "hang the fucker" crowd happy?

I mean, personally, I think Zimmerman is totally guilty of manslaughter (and his actions, if not the killing itself, were racially influenced).

I also think there is something very wrong with the PD's handling of the case.

As far as any trial or conviction goes - it's going to be a Casey Anthony result all the way.

So, assuming Robin is discussing probable trial results (and the reasons why), and not saying "naw, brah, no way he's guilty, and you can't prove it", I gotta agree with Robin.

I can't see them getting a solid conviction for murder, but, maybe, manslaughter, IF they can work around SYG.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Nuke,

My comments are purely on how I think things will go, based on the legal aspects of the case. Personally, I think Zimmerman is an idiot who was obsessed with doing something about the bad guys. If it were not for SYG, I would think him guilty of involuntary manslaughter, at a minimum, but SYG sure muddies the waters.

[G.S]

Considering Vrana's link shows that sYG is basically a coverall to let people they like get off and those they don't like get thrown in gaol for plain old self defence I really do not know what to think other than the legal system in florida is incredibly incometant/corrupt?

[Robin Of House Hill]

The quality of the legal system depends on the quality of the laws which depends on the quality of the legislators. States like Florida, Texas and Arizona never stood much of a chance.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I've finally reviewed the Probable Cause affidavit and... the whole suspiciously partisan, right-wing line of attack against it is ridiculous.

So you're saying that Alan Dershowitz is a partisan, right-wing Republican?

I posit this: if the prosecutor's office can prove to a jury, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Zimmerman profiled Martin because he was black, that he followed him in his car, left his car and pursued him on foot against the advice of the 911 dispatcher, that based on the testimony of Martin's girlfriend Zimmerman chased Martin down on foot while Martin tried to get away, and Zimmerman initiated a physical confrontation (while Zimmerman was armed with a gun and Martin was not), with Martin screaming for help, and as a result of initiating that physical conflict, decided to shoot Martin in the chest killing him -- that you are within the realm of what a jury might find to be a "depraved mind showing no regard for human life."

I agree with you. But I think part of Dershowitz' point was that this wasn't even alleged. In particular, the bolded language. It kind of skips right from "Zimmerman was following Martin" to "there was a confrontation and Martin was shot", but without any claim that Zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation, which frankly seems to be a major issue in terms of the law.

And I think one of the issues that the defense is going to argue is how pudgy Zimmerman managed to chase down athletic Martin. Right now, it is unclear to me exactly where the confrontation occured in proximity to the road, Martin's home, etc. All that may make it clear that Zimmerman may well have been able to chase Martin down and cut him off from his home or something, but we just don't know right now.

I'm must going to be glad when the facts come out, because I'm thinking/hoping that's going to clarify all this a bit more so that the eventual verdict is something that can be accepted. Whatever it is.

[TerraPrime]

The quality of the legal system depends on the quality of the laws which depends on the quality of the legislators. States like Florida, Texas and Arizona never stood much of a chance.

It also depends on the local law enforcement, as well as the courthouse clerks, judges, and juries.

Which is (sort of tangent) why basic public education is a good thing, no?

[Nukelavee]

Sure, if public education included courses like tolerance, empathy, and accountability.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

So you're saying that Alan Dershowitz is a partisan, right-wing Republican?

I never mentioned a political party. I'm tempted to say that Dershowitz is the exception that proves the rule, except that Dershowitz's politics tend to fly all over the map depending on the issue being discussed.

Edited to add: What, no substantive criticsm of my post?

Edited again to add: Well, now that you went an edited in a substantive criticism of my post the first edit looks stupid.

[Greywolf2375]

Sure, if public education included courses like tolerance, empathy, and accountability.

Funny, I see that as a private education thing...as in the parents, not the teachers.