Martin/Zimmerman III

[Robin Of House Hill]

I agree, it was quite different, but when I turned on the TV the following morning, the emphasis was about how much longer the investigation would keep the freeway closed. The media didn't even mention that the police fired 90 rounds at someone who didn't have a gun. A few years ago, a 12 year old kid stole a car in Santa Monica. The police opened fire when he tried to back the car over them. The media was all over that one. Guess what the difference was. I posted what I did because the presumption that an action was racially motivated seems to depend on who gets shot and who pulls the trigger.

[mormont]

I agree, it was quite different, but when I turned on the TV the following morning, the emphasis was about how much longer the investigation would keep the freeway closed. The media didn't even mention that the police fired 90 rounds at someone who didn't have a gun. A few years ago, a 12 year old kid stole a car in Santa Monica. The police opened fire when he tried to back the car over them. The media was all over that one. Guess what the difference was. I posted what I did because the presumption that an action was racially motivated seems to depend on who gets shot and who pulls the trigger.

Yes, those things were different in this case than in the Martin case. But so were about a hundred other things, many of them more important. I think the different reaction is probably due to some or all of those hundred other things, myself. You're entitled to think differently: everyone is entitled to be wrong.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Alan Dershowitz has blasted the affidavit filed by the prosecutor in the Martin case. He basically says it doesn't come close to justify a charge of second degree murder, and may be unethical. Yikes.

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/hardball/47034974#47034974

Dershowitz is often hyperbolic, but he may have a point in that it falls short of the charge.

[DanteGabriel]

Alan Dershowitz has blasted the affidavit filed by the prosecutor in the Martin case. He basically says it doesn't come close to justify a charge of second degree murder, and may be unethical. Yikes.

http://video.msnbc.m...034974#47034974

Dershowitz is often hyperbolic, but he may have a point in that it falls short of the charge.

Is there not a single fucking competent person in public service in Florida?

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Is there not a single fucking competent person in public service in Florida?

I dunno. I don't do criminal law, but I reread the affidavit after listening to Dershowitz, and he has a point. It is just very vague when it comes to alleging critical facts at the moment when Martin was shot. Maybe there is more evidence, but I don't see how you get to second degree murder beyond a reasonable doubt.

Again, part of me suspects that this is political in that they don't want to make it look like it was swept under the rug. So they're charging aggressively, likely knowing/expecting they won't be able to get that conviction. But if it is a jury or judge who prevents a conviction, rather than the cops or prosecutor, then they're off the hook. And again, I don't have a huge problem with that. The tension around this is high enough that anything legal that defuses it is fine by me. And of course, if they get manslaughter rather than second-degree murder, I don't think anyone is going to remember the overcharge anyway.

[DanteGabriel]

I agree, it was quite different, but when I turned on the TV the following morning, the emphasis was about how much longer the investigation would keep the freeway closed. The media didn't even mention that the police fired 90 rounds at someone who didn't have a gun.

I grew up in Los Angeles. Something that clogs the freeway is a bigger deal there than cops perforating a kid who called 911 to report that he had a gun, was looking to hurt some cops, and seemed to do everything he could to make the cops think he had a gun. I'm an easy sell on stories of police abuse and recklessness but this really does seem to me like a case of suicide by cop.

[Maithanet]

Is there any downside to overcharging? Why would the prosecutor want to charge manslaughter rather than 2nd degree murder and manslaughter?

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Is there any downside to overcharging? Why would the prosecutor want to charge manslaughter rather than 2nd degree murder and manslaughter?

Well, no. Although prosecutors generally won't charge something unless they think they have sufficient facts to support a theoretical jury verdict, even if that verdict is unlikely. Dershowtiz's point is that even if you take all those specific facts as true (and forgetting whether or not the jury will agree with them), it still doesn't state a valid charge for second-degree murder.

But again, I really don't have a problem with this. There is an important public interest in ensuring that the process is perceived as not letting Zimmerman off the hook. So, you overcharge, and if you end up getting a conviction for manslaughter, then justice has still been done. Personally, I'm not making an predictions on this one at this point. I think it is a tough case. I just really, really hope that eventually, various important public figures come out and acknowledge that the process has worked, and that we all need to respect whatever result the jury reaches. And say that before the verdict.

[Howdyphillip]

Well, no. Although prosecutors generally won't charge something unless they think they have sufficient facts to support a theoretical jury verdict, even if that verdict is unlikely. Dershowtiz's point is that even if you take all those specific facts as true (and forgetting whether or not the jury will agree with them), it still doesn't state a valid charge for second-degree murder.

But again, I really don't have a problem with this. There is an important public interest in ensuring that the process is perceived as not letting Zimmerman off the hook. So, you overcharge, and if you end up getting a conviction for manslaughter, then justice has still been done. Personally, I'm not making an predictions on this one at this point. I think it is a tough case. I just really, really hope that eventually, various important public figures come out and acknowledge that the process has worked, and that we all need to respect whatever result the jury reaches. And say that before the verdict.

My problem with this is that I don't think our system has the possibility of working out because this trial will be hopelessly biased one way or another at this point. The ball has been completely dropped here by the state, and what we are left with will be a mockery of our justice system. Zimmerman should have been arrested and charged with manslaughter to begin with.

At this point, he can not receive a fair trial as is evidenced by the second degree murder charge that has been levied against him by people vying for political gain. I don't think that he should walk because he is almost certain to be guilty of manslaughter, but justice continues to be thrown aside in this case.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

My problem with this is that I don't think our system has the possibility of working out because this trial will be hopelessly biased one way or another at this point. The ball has been completely dropped here by the state, and what we are left with will be a mockery of our justice system. Zimmerman should have been arrested and charged with manslaughter to begin with.

At this point, he can not receive a fair trial as is evidenced by the second degree murder charge that has been levied against him by people vying for political gain. I don't think that he should walk because he is almost certain to be guilty of manslaughter, but justice continues to be thrown aside in this case.

I actually have some faith that it'll work out. They'll screen the jurors, and my guess is that they'll get a decent pool. All I can say is that if he deserves to go to jail, I hope he goes. And vice-versa. I suspect that one huge viture of this, though, is that all the evidence will come out, on all sides. And that should go a long way to making public opinion line up with the eventual verdict.

[Paladin of Ice]

Is there not a single fucking competent person in public service in Florida?

It's Flordia. That alone should answer your question. ;)

(Before anyone gets too ticked off, please note that I was a Miami resident for awhile about a dozen years ago.)

[Swordfish]

I actually have some faith that it'll work out. They'll screen the jurors, and my guess is that they'll get a decent pool. All I can say is that if he deserves to go to jail, I hope he goes. And vice-versa. I suspect that one huge viture of this, though, is that all the evidence will come out, on all sides. And that should go a long way to making public opinion line up with the eventual verdict.

I'm anxiously anticipating the conspiracy theory which claims that he is being overcharged SPECIFICALLY so that he doesn't get convicted, because the DA's office is racist.

[G.S]

I'm anxiously anticipating the conspiracy theory which claims that he is being overcharged SPECIFICALLY so that he doesn't get convicted, because the DA's office is racist.

Not sure about that but this idea of charging him for multiple crimes based on the same event seems illegal under a system of no double jeapordy.

Totally seperate crimes yeah fine but if you have one body/death then you cannot charge someone with multiple charges relating to murder ie murder one, murder2, manslaughter, involountery homicide, assault and battery etc etc that is a clear case of double jeapordy sincethe person is being charged and tried on different counts for the same crime.

Yeah I think the guy is guilty but the system allowing this is wrong. Sorry.

[Thlayli]

Not sure about that but this idea of charging him for multiple crimes based on the same event seems illegal under a system of no double jeapordy.

Totally seperate crimes yeah fine but if you have one body/death then you cannot charge someone with multiple charges relating to murder ie murder one, murder2, manslaughter, involountery homicide, assault and battery etc etc that is a clear case of double jeapordy sincethe person is being charged and tried on different counts for the same crime.

Yeah I think the guy is guilty but the system allowing this is wrong. Sorry.

I could be wrong, not a lawyer, but I believe it's a common practice to have multiple charges just in case the jury doesn't go for the top charge (in this case, murder two). They can downgrade to manslaughter. Perhaps one of the thread lawyers can expand on this.

Anyhoo, my main reason for posting is to let boarders know that I have reserved my shopping cart for the post-verdict festivities. My shoe size is difficult to find (feet quite long, but narrow), perhaps we could start thread detailing people's needs. Kinda like a swap meet ...

[Robin Of House Hill]

This may help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesser_included_offense

[felice]

Totally seperate crimes yeah fine but if you have one body/death then you cannot charge someone with multiple charges relating to murder ie murder one, murder2, manslaughter, involountery homicide, assault and battery etc

They're not really separate charges, they're different degrees of guilt. And determining guilt is what the trial is for, not something to specify in advance.

[G.S]

They're not really separate charges, they're different degrees of guilt. And determining guilt is what the trial is for, not something to specify in advance.

Somethi9ng that is ILLEGAL here, you charge the person for a crime, yeah plea bargaining is possible thus you can be charged with assault occasioning grevious bodily harm and plead down to plain assault. But you do not go to trial with a multitude of options hanging over you.

In this particular case sorry but homicide is murder and manslaughter is not thus two totally different charges based on the same crime not a matter of degrees of guilt.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Somethi9ng that is ILLEGAL here, you charge the person for a crime, yeah plea bargaining is possible thus you can be charged with assault occasioning grevious bodily harm and plead down to plain assault. But you do not go to trial with a multitude of options hanging over you.

In this particular case sorry but homicide is murder and manslaughter is not thus two totally different charges based on the same crime not a matter of degrees of guilt.

Suffice it to say - you are wrong. You don't understand the idea of lesser included offenses, or the idea of merger, or the concept of double jeopardy.

[Nukelavee]

Nestor -just pointing out - different countries have different systems. You certain he IS wrong, for his locale?

[Thlayli]

Somethi9ng that is ILLEGAL here, you charge the person for a crime, yeah plea bargaining is possible thus you can be charged with assault occasioning grevious bodily harm and plead down to plain assault. But you do not go to trial with a multitude of options hanging over you.

In this particular case sorry but homicide is murder and manslaughter is not thus two totally different charges based on the same crime not a matter of degrees of guilt.

Well, it might not fly in the court system where you reside. Rest assured, perfectly O.K. here. Homicide is not murder -- it's one human taking another human's life. Murder is a criminal charge. If I kill an intruder in my house, it's a homicide, but not necessarily a crime.

Source: Law and Order

Corroborating source: My Bottom