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[Book Spoilers] EP 204 Discussion

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People really need to get over the fact that things arent 100% as they are in the books, the book does not = the TV show stop complaining about every little or big change, the show is close and faithful overall to the books

I don't remember any ever saying that the TV show needs be word for word perfect. What people have commented on is that many of the changes have taken away from something in the story. There are a number of changes that have been great but just as many that do not work well.

just be pleased it is being made in the first place.

Whenever someone says something like this all I can think of are adaptions like the cartoon version of The Hobbit and more recently Starship Troopers - hey just be happy they used the name regardless of the quality.

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Or they could have just taken the fucking dragons by force :)

As I remember tho the Qarthians were decidedly interested in the dragons, but I think they knew who Danny was and were interested in her as well.

It had to do with that House of the Undying hoopla which I never figured out, but they were not going to harm her until that was over... and they failed at that in the end.

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I don't remember any ever saying that the TV show needs be word for word perfect. What people have commented on is that many of the changes have taken away from something in the story. There are a number of changes that have been great but just as many that do not work well.

Whenever someone says something like this all I can think of are adaptions like the cartoon version of The Hobbit and more recently Starship Troopers - hey just be happy they used the name regardless of the quality.

I'm driving to your house to smack you. Don't try to use the baby as a shield.

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Same, Dany's story has been weak this season.

To be fair, it was weak in the novel too, so I can't blame the producers. The House of Undying was the only good Dany chapter in the whole book.

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Honestly, the strongest "vitriol" I've seen in this thread has been towards people expressing disappointment over some of the changes - not from the people expressing disappointment themselves. I'm actually pleasantly surprised by how understanding most people are being about the necessary deviations. My TV does have an "off" button, this is true - but your browser also has a close button.

Let's be honest - one of the best parts about watching the shows after reading the books is pointing out the deviations. It's a lot of fun. It's like we get to enjoy the story the show presents us, as well as relive and remember the book version as well. It does help to think of them as two separate but similar story lines, yet at the same time, the major plot points should at least try and stay the same. Every time they make a change that could have serious butterfly effects, I raise an eyebrow and think "Oh, it will sure be fun to see how they fix THAT."

Thanks to all the folks who mentioned that Jaken states that "the red god must have his due" in the books, because I had forgotten that. I suppose next week we will see more clearly what they are doing and it can be discussed more then.

What I found interesting about the non-peach Renley/Stannis scene, is that I actually felt Renley seemed more stressed than Stannis. Perhaps when I read the books, I perceived Stannis as an even harder man. This really bothered me at first, and then I shrugged and decided it was just a different take, and that's okay too.

Thank you my friend. Very well put!

On the whole, I am kind of tired with people judging the series in comparison with the book. Especially with the case of Ros. I mean give it a break already. Imagine going up to GRRM and saying 'yeah well that whole scene with Theon and the captain's daughter on the way to Pyke...yeah, kinda pointless'.

I mean come on! The screen play is a re-interpretation and GRRM is in on the changes. We all know that. Learn to live with it. And judge it

as it is and for what it is - a TV show.

My only, and rather shallow criticism, is with the make-up and stylist department. Melissandre is supposed to be mesmerisingly, enchantingly beautiful, van Houten is a veritable goddess in real life, but she looks like a horse in the series. (I am sorry...but that is what it is). Same with Margaery and what I think might be Jeyne (Talisa in this episode)... though i do think that the robb-jeyne love story is more plausible if he sees her as a smart and daring ladyling rather than a 'oops I f**cked you so now I must marry you...oh wait I DO love you' kinda thing that was in the books.

Kudos to Emilia Clarke for her acting, Peter Dinklage is a god as usual, and Maisie Williams' expressions were sublime. Liam Cunninham on the other hand wasn't as convincing in the shadow-baby scene as he could have been (kind made the scene look kinda fake, no terror on his face) and the new Mountain isn't as threatening as he was in the first season. Bring that actor back! His character on Spartacus was de-faced (literally), so he should be free now!

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Oh my seven. GET THE HELL OVER THE NITPICKING. THE SHOW IS NOT THE BOOKS. CHANGES WILL BE MADE.

Appreciate what we have. We could have had NO show, and then what would you be raging over? For fuck's sake.

I'll never understanding this "All or nothing" mentality. It's like the whole "You're with us or you're with the enemy" thing. Yes, we're all grateful Dan and David have made such an accurate, loving adaptation that captures the book's spirit, etc. It doesn't mean, as both fans and just human beings with tastes and differences, we may not like everything or have minor complaints or are bothered by a change, not simply because it is a change at all, but because of what it specifically changing what from what. This is a forum for fans to express their opinions, in a discussion thread marked aside for the followers of the books. Minor complaints voiced here are not going to change what's already been done, nor will it make the showrunners do things differently in future seasons. I really don't see what's so bad about people using this specific avenue to voice their (sometimes) negative thoughts.

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The Lannister guards gossiping about Loras/Renly - Really? At the west end of the continent, two low level sentries know about the King's Uncle and his 'secret' homosexual relationship with one of the sons of the Lord of High Garden. Is it a big deal that Renly needs to keep his homsexuality secret or not? Apparently not, given everybody knows.

This was a loving nod from the producers of the show to fans of the books.Specifically fans who go to forums to discuss the books. This same discussion has been going on here for years and years. I fail to see how terrible this is.

As for comments made about Renly's homosexuality, there is several clues all over the books spoken by people from all over the realm. It was obviously a known thing about him.

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I don't remember any ever saying that the TV show needs be word for word perfect. What people have commented on is that many of the changes have taken away from something in the story. There are a number of changes that have been great but just as many that do not work well.

Whenever someone says something like this all I can think of are adaptions like the cartoon version of The Hobbit and more recently Starship Troopers - hey just be happy they used the name regardless of the quality.

No way are you comparing the sheer quality of writing, ACTING, sets, styling, directing etc. that appears on GoT with those sucky adaptations... cummon!!!

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We must assume that Stannis has at least a vague notion that Melisandre is indeed working at some kind of magical effect at that point. He is certainly not demanding Davos' help just so that Melisandre can get a good view of the region for inspirational purposes.

Just how much a grasp of the situation he has is unclear, however.

I think the boat scene with Davos makes clear that Stannis knows enough about what is going on to know that its not the way he would normally win a war. Those avenues, he says, are closed to him. Therefore, he is making his own way. I think Stannis knows that Mel has powers and he respects those powers to secure the throne.

Oh my seven. GET THE HELL OVER THE NITPICKING. THE SHOW IS NOT THE BOOKS. CHANGES WILL BE MADE.

I can understand this. But not every complaint is simply "The books were like X and now we are seeing Y and I don't like it." Some people are detailing legitimate grievences insofar as what is being put on the screen is not as good as they would hope. I agree with you: when people complain about Tommen's accent or that Roose Bolton wasn't at this battle etc, its nitpicking. I don't care about the actor who plays the Mountain and I don't care that Shea is Sansa's handmaiden (other than its a scene that has Shea in it).

But by contrast look at that last scene- while visually stunning and impactful to the story- is actually untethered to the show. We have no context of Davos and Mel or what is going on in that scene; we have absolutely no idea what Davos and Mel are doing. Where are they? What are their goals? Who are they attacking? Why are they where they are? Where is Renly? Is Renly in a city that would gate up a cave? What's going on? Its a sloppy stuck-on scene that begs the question: why couldn't they dedicate a few more minutes (or even seconds) to some dialog that would secure what is going on to the plot?

Appreciate what we have. We could have had NO show, and then what would you be raging over? For fuck's sake.

I cringe at this logic, but I do understand what you are saying. On the one hand, had you told me 10 years ago that anyone could EVER make ASoIaF into a series I would have probably said something like "Never in a million years" or "Well, maybe they could concentrate on ONE story but they would have to cut like 85% of it." And with that, I agree- I SHOULD be grateful that the books I enjhoy so much are now part of a series I enjoy so much. And for that I am grateful.

But not mutually exclusive from that thought is honest critisism: the idea that people of like minds and rational temperment can make observations about what they see and if they enjoy it or not; they are allowed- and encouraged by these very boards -to express their pleasure and displeasure (and as the DVDs illustrate, the producers DO read our comments) and to have discussions and debates with other people. We are not forced- nor could we be -to all bow our heads in mutual submission and say to every Roz scene or every amputated plot twist "Thank you sir, may I have another."

These boards would not exist if people - like you, Mya and me -did not come here armed with opinion and passion.

If we didn't, fuck- might as well just watch True Blood. And nobody wants to do that....

Edited by Rockroi

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Littlefinger gave Cat Ned's bones, that was the biggest WTF moment in this series so far. The state of Ned's bones is still in question in the books. I know it's not a major plot point, but didn't know why the needed to spend time on it this episode.

Ned's bones are MIA now, yes, but Catelyn still got them - just at Riverrun before sending them on with some Silent Sisters. The change in the show isn't really that big a deal and probably was also done to help fuel Catelyn's release of Jaime.

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I'll never understanding this "All or nothing" mentality. It's like the whole "You're with us or you're with the enemy" thing. Yes, we're all grateful Dan and David have made such an accurate, loving adaptation that captures the book's spirit, etc. It doesn't mean, as both fans and just human beings with tastes and differences, we may not like everything or have minor complaints or are bothered by a change, not simply because it is a change at all, but because of what it specifically changing what from what. This is a forum for fans to express their opinions, in a discussion thread marked aside for the followers of the books. Minor complaints voiced here are not going to change what's already been done, nor will it make the showrunners do things differently in future seasons. I really don't see what's so bad about people using this specific avenue to voice their (sometimes) negative thoughts.

I made it through 8 pages of people bitching about Gregor not being big enough and Joff's scene depicting just how sadistic he is as unnecessary before I posted that comment. There's some intelligent discourse in this thread, but that was mainly a post replying to the hoards of "THE MOUNTAIN IS NOT BIG ENOUGH ANYMORE OMG" nerd-raging that infuriates me.

ETA: Well said, Rock.

Edited by Mya Stone

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This was a loving nod from the producers of the show to fans of the books.Specifically fans who go to forums to discuss the books. This same discussion has been going on here for years and years. I fail to see how terrible this is.

As for comments made about Renly's homosexuality, there is several clues all over the books spoken by people from all over the realm. It was obviously a known thing about him.

Terrible may be overstating... clunky and lazy writing. And if its a 'loving nod' to book fans, it feels more like a dismissive middle finger.

Implicit within the book and tv series, is that Renly needs to keep his homesexuality on the down low to secure the Iron Throne. All those Houses aren't going to support someone who can't have a true heir (hence the political marriage to Margaery). Yes - There would be gossip, but it wouldn't be known at the other end of Westeros. Especially by two low born sentries. How would they even know who Loras is?

Moreover, it just makes Westeros seem smaller and smaller. More Orange County with everyone knowing everyones business, and less of a medival continent in which information moves slowly and often incorrectly. This show, with its budgetary constraints, doesn't need another scene reinforcing how small everything is.

Edited by pleonasm

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Well, I really laughed throughout the whole 'Jeyne-thing'. Can anybody imagine Robb Stark, the King in the North, would fall for a common camp follower nurse? Love does not overcome class distinctions in Westeros. How can they possibly integrate Davos and him being uncomfortable about being a noble of sorts, and intend to make this girl a queen?

It really is too ridiculous to rant about it...

I also missed Renly's peach, but Stannis, Davos, and especially Mel really were awesome this week. It's a change that Stannis is actually privy to the whole shadow thing, but I don't mind. Stannis did know later on when he charged Davos to help Mel to kill Ser Cortnay.

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I can't believe I didn't even notice The Mountain 2.0. Will have to re-watch the episode tonight.

Well' date=' I really laughed throughout the whole 'Jeyne-thing'. Can anybody imagine Robb Stark, the King in the North, would fall for a common camp follower nurse? Love does not overcome class distinctions in Westeros. How can they possibly integrate Davos and him being uncomfortable about being a noble of sorts, and intend to make this girl a queen?

It really is too ridiculous to rant about it...[/quote']

Fully agreed. This was one of the things that really rubbed me the wrong way.

Edited by A Time for Wolves

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But by contrast look at that last scene- while visually stunning and impactful to the story- is actually untethered to the show. We have no context of Davos and Mel or what is going on in that scene; we have absolutely no idea what Davos and Mel are doing. Where are they? What are their goals? Who are they attacking? Why are they where they are? Where is Renly? Is Renly in a city that would gate up a cave? What's going on? Its a sloppy stuck-on scene that begs the question: why couldn't they dedicate a few more minutes (or even seconds) to some dialog that would secure what is going on to the plot?

This.

It was like they wanted to combine the birthing "scenes" and so just crammed together the iconic one (beneath Storm's End) with the one that really matters with the story (killing Renly). This completely makes sense and I'm totally in support of this type of condensing of story to fit the visual format.

But, they then totally forgot any kind of orientation around what's going on.

For me this show is feeling very disjointed. I loved many of the individual scenes (everything with Tyrion X10) but as an over all story, it's floundering.

Which I guess is how I felt about Clash too.

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Did anybody notice in the preview for next weeks episode, Jaqen H'ghar told Arya that "the red god" must have three lives? That may not be exactly what he said, but I know he said red god, in connection with the three deaths he owes Arya. I know that part was in the book, where Arya gets to have Jaqen kill three people, but in the books he never called it the red god. Red god to me means R'hllor, but the Faceless Men surve Him of many Faces.

I think it has been talked about that he say this because they were supposed to die in the fire and since they didn't R'hllor needs three more deaths. Red God is just one of HIm of many Faces. There is a thread on here about that.

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i supposed it is necessary, but i didn't like the impression i got of tyrion admiring sansa as she leaves the room. she certainly looked as a queen as she tried to muster her dignity, but tyrion in the books never seems to admire her (sorry, not a tyrion/sansa shipper)

I disagree. In the books, particularly ASOS, Tyrion frequently recognizes Sansa's strengths. It's subtle and easy to miss, but it's there.

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IMO, there are simply too many characters that need to be more carefully introduced, there are too many intricate plots and threads that need to be more carefully explained, and they have precious little time as it is. Please, producers, think it through before S3 begins filming. I'll be heartbroken if this show gets canceled because people simply can't follow anymore, and don't want to bother trying.

What I see is that D&D , without doing jarring violence to the story, need to do better restructuring , I wish I could make suggestions, but I am not a screenwriter.

One thing that would help , and right now it looks impossible for HBO , is to do 12 episode seasons, more time with cast and scenes so it does not feel like we are getting the 'bum's rush'... which, to me, has been happening a little more often this season than last.

I too worry about non fan, non book readers getting frustrated.

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No way are you comparing the sheer quality of writing, ACTING, sets, styling, directing etc. that appears on GoT with those sucky adaptations... cummon!!!

You're right, I wasn't - i was commenting on the "just be happy there is an adaption." We could have received something along the lines of those adaptions - would it still be said "just be happy?".

I'm incredibly grateful to the time they put in to make the show. It is the one TV show I make time to watch. Doesn't mean though that I (or anyone else) has like or stay silent to things that don't make sense, don't flow, don't follow logic, etc.

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