[Book Spoilers] Pre-air Discussion

[King Tommen]

I just don't buy the Dagmar=Ramsay thing, why would Ramsay be on Pyke, how would he know that Theon would turn against the Starks, and why does Roose think he's at the Dreadfort?

I'm not subscribing to it anymore since Westeros has posted that D&D are also casting for Ramsay next year so it's probably just an extra this year but....

If you wanted to go along with the theory, then Ramsay would have been dispatched by Roose to Pyke as soon as he learned that Theon was going back to meet with his father (something Roose would have been privy to in Robb's camp). Ramsay would have skulked around waiting for the chance to introduce himself to Theon alone (which he did, waiting conveniently until all of Theon's crew were headed to the boat and Yara had left) and bluff that he was Theon's 1st mate. The goal (as directed by Roose) would be to nudge Theon to turn against Robb (something Theon had already decided to do) and then suggest attacking WInterfell. Dagmer basically goads Theon into doing this and does it in a way that it even makes Theon think its his idea. Then they both come aboard the ship, Ramsay would bluff his role as 1st mate with Theon's crew by arriving with Theon to make it look like Theon, as ship captain was just bringing his own guy. Theon's crew didn't appear to be all that sharp and in on any plans as Theon had to inform them of what their mission was and that he was their new captain. Not knowing that a 1st mate was also coming along until seeing him pop up with Theon could be plausible based on this.

After that, Ramasay never interacts with the rest of the crew and only serves as the devil on Theon's shoulder by goading him into executing Rodrik instead of imprisoning him like Theon was going to and also helping come up with the idea to burn the orphan kids (which mirrors what Reek did in the novels) doing it all with a fairly evil sneer. He even made himself scarce when Yara dropped by so that she wouldn't ask who he was and magically reappeared to chat with Theon after Yara left.

Once the shit hit the fan, Roose would then not allow Robb to send any more men and instead say that he'd be sending Ramsay from the Dreadfort (knowing that Ramsay was already in Winterfell). A force would leave from the Dreadfort (Ramsay's men without Ramsay) and then when they got to Winterfell, Ramsay would either convince Theon to let them into the gates or secretly grant them access. Dagmer would reveal himself to Theon (just as Reek had done in the novels), kill all the Ironborn men, sack Winterfell and take Theon back to the Dreadfort with his men just like Reek did in the books. As in the books, Roose and Ramsay could then blame the sacking on Theon which no one alive would be able to dispute.

Convoluted? Kind of, but so was the whole Reek/Ramsay arc in the books so you could pull it off if you wanted to avoid the "Reek" story but still have the same "deception" arc with Theon. It would be a nice way to fool book readers too by making the character Dagmer which would throw them off the scent. In reality, this Dagmer is the same as the novels in name only as he's supposed to be a legendary Ironborn warrior that Theon knew as a child (none of which is true in the show version of the character).

So all this being said, it's almost certainly not going to be the case. You can't get around the age factor (he's way too old to be Roose's child) and there appears to be casting going on for him. I'm still interested to see how they pull off his introduction in the finale when it's not going to be the actor playing him next year. It's a weird choice, if you knew you weren't going to have the actor this year, why wouldn't you just push Ramsay arriving into the start of next season? But you don't have Roose and Robb talking about him arriving in Winterfell for the last few episodes without it going down in the finale. So I guess they'll just use a faceless, wordless extra for the Sack. Seems weird IMO.

[Warden of the North121]

I am having my doubts that they sack Winterfell this season. They might just end Theon's storyline with him readying to defend the castle while Luwin urges him to join the Night's Watch. I don't want it to go down this way but it seems likely given that Ramsay hasn't been cast yet.

[iheartseverus]

I'm not subscribing to it anymore since Westeros has posted that D&D are also casting for Ramsay next year so it's probably just an extra this year but....

But the casting list for next year has just been released today and the most noticable absence on it is--Ramsey. There's no Ramsey. We've got the Queen of Thorns, the Blackfish, Jojen and Meera, etc. No Ramsey. Now, that could be that D and D are being cagey... or, not. Because, perhaps, Ramsey's already been cast and we've already met him?

I hope its not true, not because I'm a book purist but because I don't see that big hulking smirking Dagmer as Ramsey. But whatever... D and D have given me hours and hours of joy, rage, outrage, laughter and a million things to talk about for two years now. I'm trusting they'll just keep coming with the goodies.

[King Tommen]

But the casting list for next year has just been released today and the most noticable absence on it is--Ramsey. There's no Ramsey. We've got the Queen of Thorns, the Blackfish, Jojen and Meera, etc. No Ramsey. Now, that could be that D and D are being cagey... or, not. Because, perhaps, Ramsey's already been cast and we've already met him?

I hope its not true, not because I'm a book purist but because I don't see that big hulking smirking Dagmer as Ramsey. But whatever... D and D have given me hours and hours of joy, rage, outrage, laughter and a million things to talk about for two years now. I'm trusting they'll just keep coming with the goodies.

I'm aware that the EW story doesn't include the Ramsay casting but in the Westeros story on the main page, Elio added that they have some "little birds" telling them that Ramsay is also being cast for next year as well.

[DirtyRobes]

I read someone's comment over at WiC that convinced me that the Dagmer=Ramsey theory is actually true. Dagmer looking the same age as Roose doesn't matter, because Ramsey is literally wearing Dagmer's face. It all makes sense now. So, Jagen wont be the only person changing its face next episode.

Haha No Way is Ramsey changing his face:-P What was it that you read? did it say he was Literally wearing Dagmer's face? Like Face/Off GoT addition?(hows that face not rotting?) or does Ramsey have FM abilities?(which is INSANE!!!).

For whatever reason people seem to want Dagmer to = Ramsey I just think that would be a horrid change, IF they had planned to do something like that @ the Very least I imagine they would have cast an actor younger than the actor playing Roose.

[King Tommen]

I am having my doubts that they sack Winterfell this season. They might just end Theon's storyline with him readying to defend the castle while Luwin urges him to join the Night's Watch. I don't want it to go down this way but it seems likely given that Ramsay hasn't been cast yet.

They pretty much have to sack Winterfell. The episode description says Luwin gives some "final" advice which is almost always code for "dying" advice. That would mean it's for Bran and crew after the Sack. Also, the previews show Theon and there's nothing left for him to do but encounter Ramsay (who has been marching from the Dreadfort since like Episode 6). I'm almost positive I read that they have shot the scene with Bran and crew leaving the crypts and that they also shot Winterfell burning down.

Food for thought: there's an Alfie Allen interview where he answers the question "Is there a scene that you're most proud of this Season?" immediately by referencing a scene in Episode 10 that he had just heard from the actor who was in it with him was "amazing" after the actor watched the footage doing ADR (additional dialogue recording). When asked who the actor was who he did the scene with, Allen said Ralph Ineson (Dagmer). So whatever that scene is (and it could be a variety of things) Allen thinks it's memorable which means something significant is going to happen to him in the finale.

Go to 4:25

[DirtyRobes]

Sooo excited that list had...

THE REEDS

BLACKFISH

GIANTSBANE

&

THE QUEEN OF THORNS(I was convinced she was gone! now I think she will get an expanded character!)

Looks like Season 3 will be full of 'new' characters for viewers too & this is still a very early release, there'll likely be more!!! I wonder if this will start affecting the Greater viewership as the story continues to expand?

THE BASTARD OF THE DREADFORT!

Edited for BERIC!!! We will also get the Lightning Lord nxt yr, gonna be another busy season!!!

[iheartseverus]

I'm aware that the EW story doesn't include the Ramsay casting but in the Westeros story on the main page, Elio added that they have some "little birds" telling them that Ramsay is also being cast for next year as well.

Aha, good. Although, hmmm, Ran, having 'little birds?' :uhoh:

[moonsblood]

I'm not subscribing to it anymore since Westeros has posted that D&D are also casting for Ramsay next year so it's probably just an extra this year but...

Interesting theory, I agree Dagmar has basically taken Reek's duties, and I could see a betrayal, but I don't think he's Ramsay.

[House Snow]

They are sacking winterfell, its already been reported that a scene was shot of the burning of Winterfell. Its going to happen. The thing that moved me away from the Dagmer+Ramsey theory is Robb offering to let the ironborn go. I think that is probably going to be the setup that allows Dagmer to let Ramsey in. I guess we either get a hemeted Ramsey or non at all.

[King Tommen]

They are sacking winterfell, its already been reported that a scene was shot of the burning of Winterfell. Its going to happen. The thing that moved me away from the Dagmer+Ramsey theory is Robb offering to let the ironborn go. I think that is probably going to be the setup that allows Dagmer to let Ramsey in. I guess we either get a hemeted Ramsey or non at all.

Yeah, they have emphasized Robb's order in the preview for the finale so it's obviously going to be the way that Ramsay gains entry (the Ironborn (probably led by Dagmer) will give Theon up in exchange for their lives and then they'll get slaughtered anyways).

[Arkash]

Well, I am quite sure we will have a helmeted dude as Ramsay last episode, silencious, leading the sack of Winterfell and Bolton-men will shout "RAMSAY ! RAMSAY !", either that or the Winterfellers whispering: "The Bastard of Bolton !"

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

My prediction is similar to what you guys have already said, Dagmar will knock Theon out and surrender to the Army from the Dreadfort, hoping for a reprieve per Robb's orders, but surprisingly the army that comes in the door will just start killing everybody, including Dagmar and all the iron born and burning the castle. Viewers will be confused as too why, and then later cut to Bran and company leaving the crypt with Winterfell sacked and burnt.

[bardgal]

Well, we WILL have the Fist of the First Men, since in the soundtrack, there is a music called "Three Blasts"...

And D&D discussed with EW their making the White Walker language.....

[gogorath]

But the casting list for next year has just been released today and the most noticable absence on it is--Ramsey. There's no Ramsey. We've got the Queen of Thorns, the Blackfish, Jojen and Meera, etc. No Ramsey. Now, that could be that D and D are being cagey... or, not. Because, perhaps, Ramsey's already been cast and we've already met him?

I hope its not true, not because I'm a book purist but because I don't see that big hulking smirking Dagmer as Ramsey. But whatever... D and D have given me hours and hours of joy, rage, outrage, laughter and a million things to talk about for two years now. I'm trusting they'll just keep coming with the goodies.

Of course, in the same article they clearly say that is not a complete list. And Ramsay auditions (as well as Vargo Hoat auditions, who was also not listed) are already leaking out.

He's getting cast. Hoat is getting cast. So is everyone on that list AND MORE.

[madman2711]

yeas they will probably kill a few second or third tier characters to make room for these new ones

i realy think dagmer is doomed

[Crown]

Dagmer allowing Ramsay to enter Winterfell is a great theory, I think that is what's going to happen.

[Caro99]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I have this idea that HotU will be an animation sequence like the extras (the coloured ones) in the blu-ray.

(or this is the best thing I can imagine trying to not get overly excited in order to not be disappointed afterwards)

I love your Labyrinth pic!!

[victim]

I'm terrified that no face-change will occur and that the Faceless Men will just be a group of generic assassins. I think this because they've yet to be mentioned in the show.

It's like, when I read the book, I was shocked for only a moment before realising that he must be one of the mysterious assassins that can change their face that Littlefinger mentioned in book one. The reveal that Jaqen is a Faceless Man can't have the same impact because most audiences won't know what the heck that is.

If they do have him change faces, do you think they'll just get a new actor or use some make-up to make him look completely different/take off his wig/etc? I'm so worried they'll botch this moment.

[King Tommen]

I'm terrified that no face-change will occur and that the Faceless Men will just be a group of generic assassins. I think this because they've yet to be mentioned in the show.

It's like, when I read the book, I was shocked for only a moment before realising that he must be one of the mysterious assassins that can change their face that Littlefinger mentioned in book one. The reveal that Jaqen is a Faceless Man can't have the same impact because most audiences won't know what the heck that is.

If they do have him change faces, do you think they'll just get a new actor or use some make-up to make him look completely different/take off his wig/etc? I'm so worried they'll botch this moment.

They actually have mentioned the Faceless men on the show. In Season 1, in Doreah's discussion with Viserys in the tub, she describes once seeing a man who could change his face like another man would change clothing. Not a big mention but it's not like they talked any more about the Faceless men in the books to this point than an offhand mention either. That didn't diminish the effect of Jaqen's face change when I read it.

And FYI, the actor playing Jaqen mentioned in an interview that he had filmed a scene involving his face being changed so I don't think there's anything for you to worry about.