salt Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Not enough to do it for me. Certainly Oberyn wanted revenge, but Tywin knew this as well as anyone, and didn't gain his reputation by putting himself in the position to be poisoned. Oberyn was standing in a long line of men who wanted Tywin dead, and I think Tywin would have been as alert at a dinner table with Oberyn as he would have been on a battlefield.As far as I know we've never heard of any poison that would destroy someone's corpse after they were dead. The closest thing we have to any sign that "Widow's blood" was used was Tywin being in the privy, and a 60 year old man using the bathroom during the night is not exactly damning evidence.However, its an interesting thought, and put together better than most of the theories posted here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tze Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 I cannot believe I missed this.And in retrospect, it just seems so obvious. When Cersei confronted Pycelle about the stink, Pycelle kept going on about how he didn't understand how this could be happening, the whole corpse was stuffed with sweet-smelling herbs and the corpse's bowels had been removed entirely (so the stink couldn't have been because of where Tyrion shot Tywin). It really made no sense at all for Oberyn, whom everyone kept saying just loved poison, to wait for an opportunity to openly kill Tywin with conventional weapons. Oberyn was very explicitly tired of waiting for his revenge, so why expect him to wait even a little while longer to kill Tywin? And the rotting was just so incredibly over-the-top that the presence of poison is the only logical explanation for it.I was inwardly assuming that Oberyn's plan was to kill Gregor Clegane in the trial and then move onto Tywin, but this is so much more in keeping with what we know of the Red Viper's style. And it echoes the whole Gregor Clegane murder plan, actually---Oberyn poisoned his blade so that, even if the Mountain won, a single scratch would ensure that Oberyn would still have his revenge from beyond the grave. Poisoning Tywin in secret before going after the Mountain meant that, even if Gregor managed to kill Oberyn, Tywin was already a dead man walking, so Oberyn's revenge wasn't halfway done at his death, it was already complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thallus Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 All the pieces fit. Let's assume that this is true. Does GRRM sit patiently waiting for someone to discover it? And how tough must it be to not be tempted to disclose it yourself? I wonder if he would ever confirm any of these theories when it doesn't affect the future plot of a particular storyline. Good work by the original poster.GRRM is the redittor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 Or the flipside, does he read a theory and go "Wow, that was a complete accident but it makes total sense!" sometimes?He'd almost have to.I'm sold. It's funny, I was reading Oberyn and Tyrion's exchange the other day and the part about Tywin "not living forever" struck me as odd, but I couldn't figure out why. Makes perfect sense.ETA: And Tze's right. I had always assumed that the stench was from him being shot in the bowels, but the innards were removed, so there shouldn't have been anything in there to make it smell so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 You sir, win this thread and the day. I'm utterly convinced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bastard of Summer Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 I like it! I'm a believer. No one can sway me after this.*If I were a hater, and was mad that I didn't come up with or notice this, I would really try and discredit you too. Some people just can't give credit when its due. Shame on you haters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagisa Furukawa Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 I love how layered and filled with hidden details these books are!Years after we're all gone, people are going to be re^15-reading them and finding connections and subplots and motives and agendas that we've never even thought about. In the meantime, this is why I'm so glad to be part of such a dedicated and intelligent fandom that pays attention to details and reads between the lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flinky Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 I like it! I'm a believer. No one can sway me after this.I couldn't figure a better reply than this. I had only one of the quotes underlined but never could think of why he knew he was in the privy and Tyrion knew he would be there. I thought Tyrion gave him the lax he gave Cercei. Bravo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 . . . and Prince Oberyn Martel just became even more of a badass then he already was. I 'm a believer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genegirl Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 Interesting theory but maybe Tywin being an old man simply had old man odor. But I would not blame the Red Viper for poisoning Tywin as an act of revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 I couldn't figure a better reply than this. I had only one of the quotes underlined but never could think of why he knew he was in the privy and Tyrion knew he would be there. I thought Tyrion gave him the lax he gave Cercei. BravoBut this theory still doesn't really explain why Tyrion knows Tywin would be on the privy, because there's no way Tyrion should know what kind of poison Oberyn used. Or am I missing something, here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlk7e Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 This is a pretty good one. I guess the big issue I have with it would be: how would it ever get revealed? Oberyn is dead, and he would be the only one who knew. I don't like the idea of big plot secrets that can't ever be revealed by anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 But this theory still doesn't really explain why Tyrion knows Tywin would be on the privy, because there's no way Tyrion should know what kind of poison Oberyn used. Or am I missing something, here?Simple: there weren't really that many other places Tywin could be, at this time of night, while a naked whore waited for him in his bed.This is a pretty good one. I guess the big issue I have with it would be: how would it ever get revealed? Oberyn is dead, and he would be the only one who knew.Ellaria Sand maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sansa Stark Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 That would be the ultimate vengeance of course. Tywin Lannister, never to be laughed at in his face, is severely humiliated after his death.I love Oberyn even more now. And pity his death even more.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 This is a pretty good one. I guess the big issue I have with it would be: how would it ever get revealed? Oberyn is dead, and he would be the only one who knew. I don't like the idea of big plot secrets that can't ever be revealed by anyone.Why does it ever have to be revealed? It doesn't change anything, Tyrion was still the one to kill Tywin and Tywin is still just as dead. Not every secret plot has to come to light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Currawong Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 I see nothing at all strange in the statement that Tywin (age about 60) may not live forever. It's one of those generic "mysterious" statements that authors like GRRM love, because they can be taken as many ways as you like, and accorded whatever interpretation you choose, thus leading to all sorts of conspiracy theories.If the Red Viper was intending to kill Tywin, why on earth would he be stupid enough utter that threat openly to Tywin's son, or even hint of it, especially with 'little birds' listening? Knowing there's the likelihood that Tyrion would alert Tywin or at least Uncle Kevan? Sure, Tyrion and Tywin weren't on the best of terms, but at that stage Tyrion was nowhere near the idea of killing his father. It's the sort of statement that Oberyn would make just for fun to wind Tyrion up, especially in his anxous mental state at that stage.And why wouldn't Tyrion expect Tywin to be on the privy? Seems to me like a major case of "elementary, my dear Watson". It's very late at night (in fact, its the early hours of the morning when Jaime releases Tyrion), Tyrion finds Shae in his father's bed, it's obvious from her initial reaction that she's expecting Tywin back any minute, so isn't it rather logical to assume that the old boy (given his age) would be on the privy? Where else would he be at that hour - marching around the palace corridors giving orders in his dressing gown?! "On the privy" looks like a pretty reasonable deduction for someone of Tyrion's mental abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horza Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 Circumstantial.Nothing linking Oberyn to Widow's Blood. Only things linking Oberyn to poisoning Tywin are being in a room with him an ambiguous comment.But maybe someone did give Tywin Widow's Blood.Perhaps it was the same person who led Tyrion to his room and put a loaded crossbow in easy reach... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Over Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 Daaaymn, son...my mind is blown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 Circumstantial.Nothing linking Oberyn to Widow's Blood. Only things linking Oberyn to poisoning Tywin are being in a room with him an ambiguous comment.But maybe someone did give Tywin Widow's Blood.Perhaps it was the same person who led Tyrion to his room and put a loaded crossbow in easy reach...But in Oberyn's case, we know the motive and the opportunity, while we can only speculate about such in Varys' case. After all, if you send Tyrion up that ladder why poison Tywin beforehand?I think the theory that Varys somehow planned all of this is too much of aRoulette Gambit - too much could have gone wrong for him to plan this to go down that path. Doesn't mean he didn't encourage Tyrion once he'd taken his decision, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned's Epic Beard Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 Makes sense. If it's true, which I'm convinced it is, Martin wanted reader to feel chills when tyrion felt chill on the back of his neck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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