A Thread for Small Questions XX

[mormont]

Small questions:

Was this forum extant before some of the later books?

This particular incarnation of the forum dates from November 2005, but that was only when we moved here from ezboard. Various previous incarnations date back to (IIRC) about 1997.

If so, did the Hivemind prove to be right in any predictions?

M

There's no hive mind.

Some individual predictions were right, others were wrong. I honestly can't think of any where everyone agreed on something and it was wrong, but there are many things that nobody predicted because nobody could, and others that people did predict in general terms - and yet others that remain to be proved or disproved. The record is about what you'd expect - lots of misses, a few hits, depending on how widely you define a 'hit'.

[Honor is a Horse]

Anyone know how old Edric Storm is supposed to be during Storm?

[The guy from the Vale]

He's probably as old as Shireen, perhaps a little older as he was sired at Stannis' wedding to Selyse. I'd say eleven or twelve at the time of Joffrey's wedding.

[rmholt]

If you go to page 462, after ordering teh threads by start date, you get threads from 2005. Its possible that this is also not the original forum.

So yes, definitely before the most recent two books, or thereabouts.

It seems that most predictions are usually of events that are still yet to come or unconfirmed. But I have, for example, heard of people predicting the return of Aegon from well before 2005, so at least some predictions to appear to have been accurate.

my fears of being "spoiled" by being on this forum are abated

[evita mgfs]

I am still learning about posting and I have not been able to locate an answer to the question I had. When rereading GOT (I have read all through DWD), Ned does not seem to know ther truth about his father and brother's deaths? At least as Jaime describes it in his POV. Thanks for your help.

[Dragonfish]

I am still learning about posting and I have not been able to locate an answer to the question I had. When rereading GOT (I have read all through DWD), Ned does not seem to know ther truth about his father and brother's deaths? At least as Jaime describes it in his POV. Thanks for your help.

What makes you say that? As I recall, Ned doesn't really think about how Brandon and Rickard died at all, so there's nothing to indicate that he doesn't know the full story.

[rmholt]

What makes you say that? As I recall, Ned doesn't really think about how Brandon and Rickard died at all, so there's nothing to indicate that he doesn't know the full story.

I recall Jaime asked Cat if Ned ever told her. My take was that he knew or could have known but he never would have told Catelyn. War stories too gruesome.

[Bluemangosteen]

PROMISE ME LUWIN

Is there a chance that Ned confided information concerning Jon's parentage with Maester Luwin? He claimed that he trusted the maester like his own blood. He knew that going to KL could (would) be perilous. Although he seemed to make the decision to allow Jon to take the black hastily, most likely for Catelyn's sake, he probably felt that Jon would be somewhat safe at the wall. I realise in the end it may not matter unless Maester Luwin did something with this information before his demise.

[Fire Eater]

PROMISE ME LUWIN

Is there a chance that Ned confided information concerning Jon's parentage with Maester Luwin? He claimed that he trusted the maester like his own blood. He knew that going to KL could (would) be perilous. Although he seemed to make the decision to allow Jon to take the black hastily, most likely for Catelyn's sake, he probably felt that Jon would be somewhat safe at the wall. I realise in the end it may not matter unless Maester Luwin did something with this information before his demise.

I don't think so, Ned wouldn't even tell his own wife whom he loved and trusted more than Luwin.

[evita mgfs]

What makes you say that? As I recall, Ned doesn't really think about how Brandon and Rickard died at all, so there's nothing to indicate that he doesn't know the full story.

When Ned takes Robert down into the crypts to pay respects, Ned's POV says, "Brandon had been twenty when he died, strangled by order of the Mad King Aerys . . . his father had been forced to watch him die" (GOT 43). Wasn't Brandon forced to watch Rickard roasted by Rossart in full armor?

Also, Bran is misinformed. He says, "And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys" (733). I do not think Ned would spare his son details if he made him attend a beheading?

[Dragonfish]

When Ned takes Robert down into the crypts to pay respects, Ned's POV says, "Brandon had been twenty when he died, strangled by order of the Mad King Aerys . . . his father had been forced to watch him die" (GOT 43). Wasn't Brandon forced to watch Rickard roasted by Rossart in full armor?

Sort of. Brandon was put in a contraption that would strangle him if he struggled to get out of it. A sword was then placed in front of him, just out of his reach, while his father was brought in and cooked very slowly over a pit of fire. The idea was to goad Brandon into struggling to reach the sword so he could free himself and then his father. But of course, the sword being just out of reach, and the contraption being designed the way it was, Brandon ended up strangling himself to death while his father watched. Rickard died soon after, due to the burns. So Ned's story is technically accurate, even if he leaves out some important details.

Also, Bran is misinformed. He says, "And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys" (733). I do not think Ned would spare his son details if he made him attend a beheading?

It's one thing to allow a child to watch the beheading of a deserter he doesn't know, it's another to describe the gruesome details of his own uncle and grandfather's deaths. I think the memory of these events was too painful for Ned. He didn't seem to speak about them to anyone, including Catelyn, who had no idea how Brandon and Rickard actually died. So there really isn't any reason to think that Bran got his info directly from Ned.

[evita mgfs]

Sort of. Brandon was put in a contraption that would strangle him if he struggled to get out of it. A sword was then placed in front of him, just out of his reach, while his father was brought in and cooked very slowly over a pit of fire. The idea was to goad Brandon into struggling to reach the sword so he could free himself and then his father. But of course, the sword being just out of reach, and the contraption being designed the way it was, Brandon ended up strangling himself to death while his father watched. Rickard died soon after, due to the burns. So Ned's story is technically accurate, even if he leaves out some important details.

It's one thing to allow a child to watch the beheading of a deserter he doesn't know, it's another to describe the gruesome details of his own uncle and grandfather's deaths. I think the memory of these events was too painful for Ned. He didn't seem to speak about them to anyone, including Catelyn, who had no idea how Brandon and Rickard actually died. So there really isn't any reason to think that Bran got his info directly from Ned.

Yes - I follow. But to recall that his father watched Brandon die? The description in the book has Rickard melted first. Anyways,

I wondered if Ned had any idea what Aerys had really done to his father and brother, he “may” have been more forgiving – or indebted – to Jaime. But Jaime may “mistakenly” believe that Ned knew, although only one person survived to tell the tale and he kept mum, too horrified? Jaime says KG were sworn to secrecy. Jaime cannot seem to understand Ned’s honor for not wanting to see his father and brother avenged.

[Dragonfish]

Yes - I follow. But to recall that his father watched Brandon die? The description in the book has Rickard melted first.

It does? Could you provide a quote?

[evita mgfs]

It does? Could you provide a quote?

I concede your point - but Jaime is vague by using "In the end"

"The pyromancers roasted Lord Rickard slowly, banking and fanning the fire carefully to get a nice even heat. His cloak caught fire first, and then his surcoat and soon he wore nothing but metal and ashes. Next, he would start to cook, Aerys promised . . . unless his son could free him. Brandon tried, but the more he struggled, the tighter the cord constricted around his throat. In the end, he strangled himself."

After his dad was sufficiently cooked, he died. Then the armor burst. Or not? I recall Jon Snow silencing Rattleshirt's screaming while burning with a merciful arror.

It still doesn't make sense that Ned would error in saying his father watched Brandon die. (I thought he was fully armed, with helm - and more focused on his own pain than on what was happening with Brandon, Brandon had some 'control' - hah - not so Rickard. He was suspended?)

Then Jaime observes, " As for your Ned, he should have kissed the hand that slew Aerys, but he preferred to scorn . . . I think Ned loved Robert better than he ever loved his brother and father" (GOT 798).

Now, as Jaime searches for his 'honor', he tries to wrap his head around Ned reconciling familial loyalty versus honor. Even though the bad guy killed two of your family in horrific ways, honor is imperative. Resent Jaime for killing the bad guy. (It would make Jaime's pickle easier if Ned had never known the truth - then he can be excused from his honor demanding he is more loyal to Robert than dad and brother? But who will ever tell Jaime?)

I do not know if this makes sense. But thanks for all your insight and taking time to discuss the topic. :cool4:

[Jolene Brown]

It seems like Rickard did watch Brandon die - Brandon strangled himself trying to save Rickard from the fire, but Rickard was killed/burned slowly enough that he watched Brandon die before his own end came.

[rmholt]

When Ned takes Robert down into the crypts to pay respects, Ned's POV says, "Brandon had been twenty when he died, strangled by order of the Mad King Aerys . . . his father had been forced to watch him die" (GOT 43). Wasn't Brandon forced to watch Rickard roasted by Rossart in full armor?

Also, Bran is misinformed. He says, "And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys" (733). I do not think Ned would spare his son details if he made him attend a beheading?

On the contrary, I dont find it odd at all that Ned would have spared his family the details of the deaths of his brother and father. Bran was only 7 when the books started and he saw his first beheading that year. so before that he was too young to witness justice being done. How old would he be to hear the details of a horrifying injustice? As a matter of fact, Ned finds it pretty easy to prevaricate about details about the war to his family, tho he pays for it with guilty feelings.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Also, Bran is misinformed. He says, "And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys" (733). I do not think Ned would spare his son details if he made him attend a beheading?

Bran is mostly likely either misremembering, or heard it wrong from someone at WF.

GRRM has stated many times that even the POV's aren't perfect and can not be counted on to give the "facts" perfect. All the POV's and the Stark children in particular often give you little pieces of wrong info. People often remember things wrong in real life, so he does that with his characters. He does it with little things like Sansa remembers the hound kissing her, and miss remembers the name of Joff's 1st sword.

What people have "heard" that happen is not the same as what really happend. Most people on this site have both read the book and seen at least some of the show, so sometimes we misremember what happened where or confues the two.

[Jolene Brown]

What people have "heard" that happen is not the same as what really happend. Most people on this site have both read the book and seen at least some of the show, so sometimes we misremember what happened where or confues the two.

Good god, if I had a dollar for everytime someone says that Jaime stabbed Aerys in the back! That's from the show, in the books I'm about 99% sure he slit his throat. It drives me nuts!!

[Zabuza]

Dany sees MMD dancing with shadows silhouetted on the outside of the tent.

"She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames."

Is the shadow man wreathed in flames the spiritual embodiment of Rh'llor?

[evita mgfs]

Bran is mostly likely either misremembering, or heard it wrong from someone at WF.

GRRM has stated many times that even the POV's aren't perfect and can not be counted on to give the "facts" perfect. All the POV's and the Stark children in particular often give you little pieces of wrong info. People often remember things wrong in real life, so he does that with his characters. He does it with little things like Sansa remembers the hound kissing her, and miss remembers the name of Joff's 1st sword.

What people have "heard" that happen is not the same as what really happend. Most people on this site have both read the book and seen at least some of the show, so sometimes we misremember what happened where or confues the two.

Thanks - I had been wondering if POV's were misremembered.

That is why my books are all marked with cross references and such. I myself had to reread to remember what I forgot I knew. My mother says that this idea, along with all the shadows, is from Plato's Cave, which I have only read parts of. So - Martin does this deliberately to make his readers think - and drive them nuts.

Now - why does Jaime expect Ned to be grateful - and why doesn't Ned show some gratitude to the Kingslayer? (other than the obvious).

Thanks!