Daenerys and Torture

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I would also point out that Jon himself has spent days in the ice cells himself, and it was considered a standard punishment among the Night's Watch and not cruel or unusual punishment. And when the snow got too deep, he had them moved out of the ice cells so that they would not freeze to death.

Thank you! Exactly, and that is because 'cruel and unusual' is the world they live in. Jon, Dany, Tywin, Ned, the Nightswatch as a whole, everyone.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Then go discuss them.

I go. You're the one who doesn't want to give up the idea to insist Dany is the worst character and try to tell that to people who like her, even when they don't want to think that way because they don't feel that way. It's your time, your effort, but it's a lost cause you're insisting on. And it sounds like you even want to tell them "they're wrong" for liking Dany. They aren't wrong for liking Dany. They aren't even wrong for trying to explain her actions, they simply saw her in a way you don't see her. What's wrong with that? That's not a debate, that's simply trying to label her as "bad", "evil", "mad" or "wrong".

[WSmith84]

If it is so useless then why do people all over the planetos employ it to get answers? I think your beef is with the entire setting of the books and the world they live in, not with Dany specifically

If I knew why people tortured when it is evidently such a poor way of gaining information, I'd probably be up for a Nobel Peace Prize. I actually have no problems with the setting of the books. I'm against the death penalty, but that doesn't mean I think every character is despicable for allowing/supporting/doing it. I get it, its part of the culture, the setting etc. If torture as a way of gathering information is also universally used on Planetos, then fine. If those people that the Shavepate claims are Sons of the Harpy definitely are the Sons of the Harpy, then I won't judge Dany or any other Lord or whatever for torturing them, because its probably common practice to torture enemies for information (even though its abhorrent from my modern perspective).

No, my judging Dany's act as an evil one comes from the refusal to oversee the torture when you have a sadist as your torturer and the obvious uselessness of this torture. It so clearly won't tell Dany anything, because the man is going to confess regardless of guilt.

Just as an example, if we find out Ned Stark had a torturer and never sat in on the torture sessions, I'd judge him more harshly than I do Dany. The argument about being there to reign the torturer in would apply to him of course. But also, it would be majorly hypocritical of him considering his 'man who passes the sentence, should swing the sword' mentality.

[Mladen]

Oh ok, being locked in an ice cell for days is not torture now..... and that's not whitewashing. As much as I hate that term, it seems to be the only one you can think of to describe posters who do not spend their days bashing Dany constantly.

Of course any points we make are 'poor' and any points that you make are brilliant. Keep it coming

It certainly isn't the same as torturing someone's relative. Furthermore, it isn't even the same with this case since Jon undoubtedly knows that Slynt and Cregan are guilty of what they did. He is enforcing justice here. Dany has enforced torture WITHOUT A SINGLE PROOF. As Apple said, your attempt to make some sort of equalization is not just wrong and customary, but IMO, that argument is, with that gem of everybody being on the same moral highground, quite absurd argument to make.

I see. So it is ok to torture guilty people and even more ok if you do the toturing yourself.

Got it.

Tell me, has Janos Slynt being subjected to physical torture like the one that undoubtedly Shavepate enforced? Dany is having Guantanamo bay at Meereen, heck even worse than that since I can't recall families of prisoners being tortured for information in Guantanamo. Jon has rather shitty prison. There is a gap between those size of Atlantic.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

She KNOWS that the wineseller most likely knows nothing about it

Please tell me how you know this? Because I think it is a total fabrication and not in the text at all.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

No, my judging Dany's act as an evil one comes from the refusal to oversee the torture when you have a sadist as your torturer and the obvious uselessness of this torture. It so clearly won't tell Dany anything, because the man is going to confess regardless of guilt.

Fair enough, if that is what bothers you, that is legit.

[OldGimletEye]

And we do waterboard people, all the time, torture is still considered a great way to get answers all over the world. Is it horrible? yes. but that doesnt stop it from happening.

It is? Could you cite some academic literature on the subject. Because, its my understanding, the majority of professional/academic opinion has largely concluded the opposite.

Also, didn't TR have an army general court martialed for using water boarding?

And U.S. courts since the 19th century have recognized tortured confessions are likely to be unreliable.

[Mladen]

Please tell me how you know this? Because I think it is a total fabrication and not in the text at all.

And she knows that he knows something? Please quote me the text where is said that she has any reasonable doubt to actually suspect that he knows something. Find me that piece of text where we have something to actually make excuse for that. Like some sort of proof that would have pointed out that wineseller actually knows something. Does Dany actually have anything on wineseller before putting him to torture?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I go. You're the one who doesn't want to give up the idea to insist Dany is the worst character and try to tell that to people who like her, even when they don't want to think that way because they don't feel that way. It's your time, your effort, but it's a lost cause you're insisting on. And it sounds like you even want to tell them "they're wrong" for liking Dany. They aren't wrong for liking Dany. They aren't even wrong for trying to explain her actions, they simply saw her in a way you don't see her. What's wrong with that? That's not a debate, that's simply trying to label her as "bad", "evil", "mad" or "wrong".

If you don't want to read what I write, put me on ignore. But I'll not be lectured to by you or anyone else, thanks.

[sj4iy]

Please tell me how you know this? Because I think it is a total fabrication and not in the text at all.

“Your servants have arrested the owner of the wineshop and his daughters. They plead their ignorance and beg for mercy.”

They all plead ignorance and beg for mercy. “Give them to the Shavepate. Skahaz, keep each apart from the others and put them to the question.”

“It will be done, Your Worship. Would you have me question them sweetly, or sharply?”

“Sweetly, to begin. Hear what tales they tell and what names they give you. It may be they had no part in this.” She hesitated. “Nine, the noble Reznak said. Who else?”

“Three freedmen, murdered in their homes,” the Shavepate said. “A moneylender, a cobbler, and the harpist Rylona Rhee. They cut her fingers off before they killed her.”

The queen flinched. Rylona Rhee had played the harp as sweetly as the Maiden. When she had been a slave in Yunkai, she had played for every highborn family in the city. In Meereen she had become a leader amongst the Yunkish freedmen, their voice in Dany’s councils. “We have no captives but this wineseller?”

“None, this one grieves to confess. We beg your pardon.”

Mercy, thought Dany. They will have the dragon’s mercy. “Skahaz, I have changed my mind. Question the man sharply.”

She knows that they could very well be innocent. Yet when she finds out what happened and realizes she has no one else but this wineseller in custody, she takes her anger out on him. However, there is absolutely nothing, nothing, that justifies her command to torture his daughter in front of him. Nothing.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

It is? Could you cite some academic literature on the subject. Because, its my understanding, the majority of professional/academic opinion has largely concluded the opposite.

Also, didn't TR have an Army General court martialed for using water boarding?

And U.S. courts since the 19th century have recognized tortured confessions are likely to be unreliable.

I didnt mean that literally, I meant it is still employed all over the world, and by the American government. so someone somewhere thinks it works. I think its horrible, but I am not an interrogator by trade.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

If you don't want to read what I write, put me on ignore. But I'll not be lectured by you or anyone else, thanks.

I don't want to put you in ignore because I don't feel the need to that. I enjoy reading you. But in the same way, no one wants to be lectured by you either.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

“Your servants have arrested the owner of the wineshop and his daughters. They plead their ignorance and beg for mercy.”

They all plead ignorance and beg for mercy. “Give them to the Shavepate. Skahaz, keep each apart from the others and put them to the question.”

“It will be done, Your Worship. Would you have me question them sweetly, or sharply?”

“Sweetly, to begin. Hear what tales they tell and what names they give you. It may be they had no part in this.” She hesitated. “Nine, the noble Reznak said. Who else?”

“Three freedmen, murdered in their homes,” the Shavepate said. “A moneylender, a cobbler, and the harpist Rylona Rhee. They cut her fingers off before they killed her.”

The queen flinched. Rylona Rhee had played the harp as sweetly as the Maiden. When she had been a slave in Yunkai, she had played for every highborn family in the city. In Meereen she had become a leader amongst the Yunkish freedmen, their voice in Dany’s councils. “We have no captives but this wineseller?”

“None, this one grieves to confess. We beg your pardon.”

Mercy, thought Dany. They will have the dragon’s mercy. “Skahaz, I have changed my mind. Question the man sharply.”

She knows that they could very well be innocent. Yet when she finds out what happened and realizes she has no one else but this wineseller in custody, she takes her anger out on him.

Um no, she speculated for one second that they might not know. that is hardly definitive. And your last post said;

"She KNOWS that the wineseller most likely knows nothing about it"

which is not the same as " It may be they had no part in this.”'

She doesnt 'know' the truth one way or the other, which is why she goes to extremes to find out. Once again everyone keeps avoiding the fact that 9 of her people had just been killed, and as their leader she is responsible for protecting them and stopping these murders.

How many more people should she have let get murdered? why will no one answer this?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It is? Could you cite some academic literature on the subject. Because, its my understanding, the majority of professional/academic opinion has largely concluded the opposite.

.

It is the opposite. I've done a substantial amount of academic research on torture, terrorism, counterinsurgency and whatnot. My master's degree required it. Not trying to pull the "I'm more qualified card," just saying that I know what I'm talking about.

Torture doesn't work. It is not an effective way to get quality intel, especially when the involvement and knowledge of the tortured parties is so vague and possibly non-existent. One of my favorite professors had written a boatload of books and articles about torture and its efficacy. Anyone who tried to tell him that it worked would have been laughed out of his office.

[El Guapo]

Tell me, has Janos Slynt being subjected to physical torture like the one that undoubtedly Shavepate enforced? Dany is having Guantanamo bay at Meereen, heck even worse than that since I can't recall families of prisoners being tortured for information in Guantanamo. Jon has rather shitty prison. There is a gap between those size of Atlantic.

Look I am not saying there is no difference between putting someone on the rack and putting someone in an ice cell. Of course there is a difference. there a re degrees of torture. But if you are trying to tell me that putting someone in an ice cell for 10 days where the person is clearly going to suffer, as Jon plainly states in the text, than sorry I am going to have to disagree with you that it is not totrure.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't want to put you in ignore because I don't feel the need to that. I enjoy reading you. But in the same way, no one wants to be lectured by you either.

Whatever.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

It certainly isn't the same as torturing someone's relative. Furthermore, it isn't even the same with this case since Jon undoubtedly knows that Slynt and Cregan are guilty of what they did. He is enforcing justice here. Dany has enforced torture WITHOUT A SINGLE PROOF. As Apple said, your attempt to make some sort of equalization is not just wrong and customary, but IMO, that argument is, with that gem of everybody being on the same moral highground, quite absurd argument to make.

Apple was talking to JCRB not me.

Without a single proof?? How about being caught red-handed at the scene of the crime? What would be sufficient proof for you?

Actually I was referring to everyone being on the same moral low-ground not highground. And as usual I am absurd. I am an 'absurd', 'whitewashing' poster who only has 'poor' ideas. Why in the world do you waste your time with me?

[Mladen]

Look I am not saying there is no difference between putting someone on the rack and putting someone in an ice cell. Of course there is a difference. there a re degrees of torture. But if you are trying to tell me that putting someone in an ice cell for 10 days where the person is clearly going to suffer, as Jon plainly states in the text, than sorry I am going to have to disagree with you that it is not totrure.

You understand that we had a poster who equalized those two? Certainly, being imprisoned at ice cell will bring discomfort, but there is a huge difference between that and being put on rack, seeing your family tortured etc... I am just against equalizing two things that can't be equalized. And that what Dany and what Jon did certainly is light years away from each other in terms of cruelty and being justifiable.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You understand that we had a poster who equalized those two? Certainly, being imprisoned at ice cell will bring discomfort, but there is a huge difference between that and being put on rack, seeing your family tortured etc... I am just against equalizing two things that can't be equalized. And that what Dany and what Jon did certainly is light years away from each other in terms of cruelty and being justifiable.

The ice cells (and the sky cells) are also about punishing specific acts. I don't recall seeing either of them used as a way to information out of anyone. If I'm wrong, someone feel free to correct me.

[Mithras]

Apple was talking to JCRB not me.

Without a single proof?? How about being caught red-handed at the scene of the crime? What would be sufficient proof for you?

Actually I was referring to everyone being on the same moral low-ground not highground. And as usual I am absurd. I am an 'absurd', 'whitewashing' poster who only has 'poor' ideas. Why in the world do you waste your time with me?

Red-handed?