The ultimate fate of Daenerys Targaryen.

[OldGimletEye]

Are you saying Robb Stark called his banners to save the Riverlands?

Yes, I am, to some extent at least.

From GOT Chapter 53:

"He must march soon, or not at all," Maester Luwin said. "The winter town is full to bursting, and this army of his will eat the countryside clean if it camps here much longer. Others are waiting to join him all along the kingsroad, barrow knights and crannogmen and the Lords Manderly and Flint. The fighting has begun in the riverlands, and your brother has many leagues to go."

It was only half a lie. Someone had to go, to hold the Neck and help the Tullys against the Lannisters, Bran could understand that, but it did not have to be Robb. His brother might have given the command to Hal Mollen or Theon Greyjoy, or to one of his lords bannermen. Maester Luwin urged him to do just that, but Robb would not hear of it. "My lord father would never have sent men off to die while he huddled like a craven behind the walls of Winterfell," he said, all Robb the Lord.

Look, I wouldn't say that the Lannister invasion of the Riverlands was Robb's only motivation. But, the fact of the matter is that the Tullys were his kinsman. It makes sense that he would want to help them against Lannister aggression. SeanF is right of course that saving his family was the other part of his motivation. However, objectively speaking, Robbs intervention into the RL was justified as the Lannisters were invaders into the RL. The Lannisters threw the first punch so to speak. It's not really fair to call Robb an "aggressor".

[SeanF]

I'm sure the smallfolk that were caught in the middle of the Starks and Lannisters really care who started it.

"The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends. It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace. They never are".

I've commented elsewhere that this remark is apparently shrewd, but actually a bit patronising and inaccurate from Ser Jorah.

The Smallfolk obviously don't follow politics in detail, and many of them would only have the haziest notion of what's happening at Kings Landing. But, many of them are strongly committed to their own lords, and someone like Nimble Dick is strongly pro-Targaryen. I doubt if his attitude is unusual in the Crownlands or Kings Landing.

[OldGimletEye]

I've commented elsewhere that this remark is apparently shrewd, but actually a bit patronising and inaccurate from Ser Jorah.

The Smallfolk obviously don't follow politics in detail, and many of them would only have the haziest notion of what's happening at Kings Landing. But, many of them are strongly committed to their own lords, and someone like Nimble Dick is strongly pro-Targaryen. I doubt if his attitude is unusual in the Crownlands or Kings Landing.

Yeah, I too think Jorah's comments have to be called into question a little bit. For instance, the common folk of Dorne seemed to care as they helped to repel two Targaryen invasions.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I agree that some of the commoners do care a little. Plenty of people in Dorne still have dragon banners hidden and know that the Bratheon/Lannister reign has been a total disaster/bullshit joke and they've only been in power for 16 measly years, and it's gone from bad to worse since day 1. The dragon dynasty lasted 300 years, and while they did have some bad spots (especially the fist DoD) and the last bit with the Mad King, there were still over 250 years of relative peace and prosperity and of bringing a whole continent together which is beneficial to all the citizens. Except of course the nasty ironborns who were running things mob-style before Aegon conquered.

FFC prologue

"We speak of Rhaegar's sister, born on dragonstone before its fall. The one they called Daenerys.

"The stormborn. I recall her now." Mollander lifted his tankard high, sloshing the cider that remained. "Here's to her!" He gulped, slammed his empty tankard down, belched, and wiped his mouth with the back of his hand. "Where's Rosey? Our rightful queen deserves another round of cider, wouldnt you say?"

[SeanF]

I agree that some of the commoners do care a little. Plenty of people in Dorne still have dragon banners hidden and know that the Bratheon/Lannister reign has been a total disaster/bullshit joke and they've only been in power for 16 measly years, and it's gone from bad to worse since day 1. The dragon dynasty lasted 300 years, and while they did have some bad spots (especially the fist DoD) and the last bit with the Mad King, there were still over 250 years of relative peace and prosperity and of bringing a whole continent together which is beneficial to all the citizens. Except of course the nasty ironborns who were running things mob-style before Aegon conquered.

FFC prologue

"We speak of Rhaegar's sister, born on dragonstone before its fall. The one they called Daenerys.

"The stormborn. I recall her now." Mollander lifted his tankard high, sloshing the cider that remained. "Here's to her!" He gulped, slammed his empty tankard down, belched, and wiped his mouth with the back of his hand. "Where's Rosey? Our rightful queen deserves another round of cider, wouldnt you say?"

The Targaryens were glamorous. They were mostly stunningly good-looking; they rode dragons; they were charismatic. To many people, they were like rock stars, and Rhaegar is viewed in the same light as JFK. Dany has that same rock-star quality to her followers, so it's no wonder that there are people in Westeros who'd love to see them come back.

[chrisdaw]

They cared enough to throw one dragon queen off the IT.

[~DarkHorse~]

Lyanna broke those gender barriers you were talking about. Her tragedy does not suck in any way.

You are being too hasty by claiming that death by childbirth will be anticlimactic for Dany. We need to see the path first. For me, dying on dragonback to save the world looks like a boring, cheap, cliche Hollywood movie but George might write it in an acceptable manner. Or not. George is not immune to fuckups.

:agree:

Dany dying in childbirth is ironic, even 'strong' women can die on the birthing bed. It is a harsh reality. I think it is GRRM's style to kill her off in this way.

People should remember this-

"Knights die in battle," Catelyn reminded her.

Brienne looked at her with those blue and beautiful eyes. "As ladies die in childbed. No one sings songs about them."

However, I would rather see Dany rebuild Valyria or go back to slavers bay and continue her fight against slavery. I don't think she belongs on the Iron Throne. However, I'm not sure that Jon or Aegon do either. I think Jon will be the one who perishes fighting the Others, especially if he is resurrected. He will sacrifice himself.

[whodafockcares]

I love Dany, but it will be super lame if she gets a happy ending of winning the Iron Throne.

The Ajorah Ahai theory is the path that I really want them to go with Dany (and Jorah). That would be tragic, yet profound. Dany deciding to sacrifice herself to save the realm, pleading Jorah to kill her.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

The Targaryens were glamorous. They were mostly stunningly good-looking; they rode dragons; they were charismatic. To many people, they were like rock stars, and Rhaegar is viewed in the same light as JFK. Dany has that same rock-star quality to her followers, so it's no wonder that there are people in Westeros who'd love to see them come back.

Yeah but it's not just that. The Baratheons really suck at ruling the kingdom. Even though the Mad King had some problems, those problems really only affected those closest to him, the realm at large was MUCH better off with him in charge. Straight out of The Ned's mouth;

GOT Ned IV (LF and NEd)

"The crown is more than six million in debt, Lord Stark. The Lannisters are the biggest part of it, but we have also borrowed from Lord Tyrell, the Iron Bank of Braavos, and several Tyroshi trading cartels. Of late I've had to turn to the Faith. The High Septon haggles worse than a Dornish fishmonger."

Ned was aghast. "Aerys Targaryen left a treasury flowing with gold. How could you let this happen?"

[khal drogon]

:agree:

Dany dying in childbirth is ironic, even 'strong' women can die on the birthing bed. It is a harsh reality. I think it is GRRM's style to kill her off in this way.

How many major characters in the current events has died in a battle? or by a disease or natural causes? or from suffering an accident? GRRM is not that much realistic and he does not kill people just for the sake of being ironic or to show the harsh realities of his world. If he does he would have killed off Tyrion at the Green fork or Arya by a random outlaw in the riverlands.

And there is Jon's death which is ironic and it does show the harsh reality as you said. But how many believe Jon is dead permanently? I don't care about Jon but I still believe he will be back.

Now George could write Dany dying by childbirth. But it should have some consequences and should drive the plot. It should fit her arc and should give a completeness to her arc. I know motherhood is a theme in her arc and I understand how it can complete her arc. But if it happens it would be at the very end of the books not before. And definitely it will not be ironic.

[rayarts]

I like Dany. IF she is about to turn more Targ-crazy about now, its fine with me, that adds complexity to her character.

However, I cannot see her dying as the last (pure-blooded) Targaryen around. This is the only reason I could imagine

GRRM not killing her.

I have to admit, I would be very dissappointed if she died in childbirth.

Its just that I really hate how almost every strong female character has to be unvirgined, married, coupled and/off knocked off...

But thats just me wishing for a strong female character, who can both have female characteristics (unlike Arya or Brienne) and

survive/be badass without having to "spread their legs".... I just cannot identify with this...

Somehow I would be dissappointed if that was Dany's fate, really.

[James of the Blackwater]

Trust me, I am no Dany fan, far from it actually, yet in the end, I have the feeling that she will be coming out on top, not something I want to happen, but something I foresee happening

[Mithras]

However, I cannot see her dying as the last (pure-blooded) Targaryen around. This is the only reason I could imagine

GRRM not killing her.

About the pure-blooded thing. All the Targaryens might be of bastard descent if the in-universe rumors about Aenys and Daeron the Good are true.

I have to admit, I would be very dissappointed if she died in childbirth.

Its just that I really hate how almost every strong female character has to be unvirgined, married, coupled and/off knocked off...

But thats just me wishing for a strong female character, who can both have female characteristics (unlike Arya or Brienne) and

survive/be badass without having to "spread their legs".... I just cannot identify with this...

Being a mother is a weakness of character? Strong female characters do not have sex? Dany "spread her legs" for Drogo and there are many problems about how George handled their sex life.

[rayarts]

Being a mother is a weakness of character? Strong female characters do not have sex? Dany "spread her legs" for Drogo and there are many problems about how George handled their sex life.

No, I never said being a mother is a weakness, just that I cannot identify with that. "Having sex" and "having to have sex" are two different things, though. And yeah, all the leg-spreading is a concern to me, with Drogo, too. I just wish for a female character that does NOT meet a cliché female fate.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I think we always assumed Dragons were the stories' opposite of Others. With George's recent comments about the Night's King I wonder if he has such a figure in the future books or if the showrunners used the name to create a character so clearly analogous to Dany. A Queen of Fire, a King of Ice. With the Children and the Starks in the middle being affiliated with life through their skinchanging. Dragons plant no trees after all and the North love their trees.

I'm wondering if the ultimate treason will be her teaming up with the Starks to defeat the Others and then the Starks turning on her and slaughtering her dragons as per Bran's vision of the boy at the Weirwood making three arrows. Its assumed its Brandon Snow who wanted to kill the dragons with stealth. If only the Starks had someone trained in stealth, subterfuge and assassination? I thought previously that the final battle would take place in the Riverlands, Dany's dream of the Trident, the weird story of Torrhen passing Moat Cailin for some reason, its where Ice knelt to fire, Stark to Targaryen. Kill the dragons, retreat to Moat Cailin and watch the Unsullied wash upon the battlements uselessly. But then people rightly say the North would be wiped out if that happened and I don't think that will happen. George will somehow make the threat touch everywhere. The Dornish won't be on the beach.

Trust me, I am no Dany fan, far from it actually, yet in the end, I have the feeling that she will be coming out on top, not something I want to happen, but something I foresee happening

Impossible! She's messed up so badly. Robb was karmically killed off for committing a tenth of her mistakes. She gets so many lucky breaks, it can't end well. I just can't feel it in my bones. The people that come out of top of this story aren't making their moves yet.

[khal drogon]

About the pure-blooded thing. All the Targaryens might be of bastard descent if the in-universe rumors about Aenys and Daeron the Good are true.

Being a mother is a weakness of character? Strong female characters do not have sex? Dany "spread her legs" for Drogo and there are many problems about how George handled their sex life.

Being a mother is not a weakness but dying of childbirth is definitely a weakness because it depends on her being female and because the world lacks sufficient medical knowledge. And Story-wise it would look like a forced intervention by the author rather than a natural result of the events of the story.

[SeanF]

Being a mother is not a weakness but dying of childbirth is definitely a weakness because it depends on her being female and because the world lacks sufficient medical knowledge. And Story-wise it would look like a forced intervention by the author rather than a natural result of the events of the story.

It would be narratively boring for her to die that way.

I think if she does die, it's more likely to be in battle or through assassination.

[Princess]

Why do I think Jon Snow will kill Dany in the end?? I'm so certain of this bittersweet ending.

[Lost Melnibonean]

To touch the light, she has to pass beneath the shadow...Doesn't that sound like she's gonna have to die?

[Juniper Snow]

Being a mother is not a weakness but dying of childbirth is definitely a weakness because it depends on her being female and because the world lacks sufficient medical knowledge. And Story-wise it would look like a forced intervention by the author rather than a natural result of the events of the story.

 

So you're saying female characteristics = weakness? A female character can only be a "strong" character in as much as she emulates what is considered "strong" in a male character? Of course, death in childbirth is only something that can befall women, but what you're saying is basically that this is only a "weakness" in as much as it is something inherently female. (I hope I'm just reading this wrong.)

 

 

As to Daenerys' ultimate fate, I have nothing definitive to offer, but: what definitely won't happen is her re-building a new Valyria. While it's true that Dany is of Valyria, it's a fact that everything she has stood for up until now is basically the antithesis to Valyrian culture and values. After all, Valyria's reign was one of terror (dragons) and slavery and I for one don't think Dany has strayed that far from the path she's been on since Astapor... (yet?)