Do you think we'll ever see Jaime and Brienne in an actual fully fledged relationship?

[Lyanna Stark]

Repeat after me, everyone, and keep repeating it whenever you have the urge to ship characters in this series: GRRM has no investment in his characters' lasting romantic happiness (or happiness in general, for that matter). Most loves will remain unrequited. All lost loves will remain lost. All mutual requited acknowledged loves in "series time" will be tragically cut short. These are the rules. You can go ahead and ship if you want, but if you bear this in mind, you'll spare yourself a lot of grief in the long run.

And just because that is your opinion, that romance means a Hollywood ending doesn't mean that is only way or even the correct way in interpreting it. ASOIAF is full of romance of various types. I know full well you dislike that, but it doesn't make it less true.

What there is a dearth of is a romance with anything like happy participants, now that Ned and Cat are gone.

However, a bittersweet ending does not prevent this in the least. For reference, see Lord of the Rings, which has a very bittersweet ending, and as I may remind you, have several romantic pairings going off: Sam/Rosie Cotton, Aragorn/Arwen and Faramir/Eowyn. And this is with romance taking a decided backseat in most of LOTR, yet despite that, and despite the very "correct" romantic endings with happy couples, children etc etc Tolkien still manages to create a very bittersweet ending without the slightest problem.

The supposed opposition between "bittersweet" and "romance" does not exist.

Besides, how does anyone think coming back to a sacked and burnt Winterfell to build it back up after all their family and everyone they knew are dead isn't going to be bittersweet, even if they managed to find some romance in their lives? It seriously boggles the mind.

The same goes for a Jaime/Brienne romance, there is nothing ever that says it will be one with a white picket fence, puppies and a perfect flower garden where little unicorn shit rainbows all day. All evidence suggest that it won't be, so I have no idea why people insist that a romance automatically means the things it doesn't mean, and that it excludes a bittersweet ending, which Tolkien already shown it doesn't. That is simply factually incorrect.

[Le Cygne]

However, a bittersweet ending does not prevent this in the least. For reference, see Lord of the Rings, which has a very bittersweet ending, and as I may remind you, have several romantic pairings going off: Sam/Rosie Cotton, Aragorn/Arwen and Faramir/Eowyn. And this is with romance taking a decided backseat in most of LOTR, yet despite that, and despite the very "correct" romantic endings with happy couples, children etc etc Tolkien still manages to create a very bittersweet ending without the slightest problem.

Faramir and Eowyn as a love story was so beautifully constructed, because their stories led to that moment in the Houses of the Healing.

The nice thing about ASOIAF is there are many more female characters, and many more opportunities for romance.

[Alboin]

I believe Brienne will end up choosing between White Cloak in a Guard of a future rightful King (whoever he/she will be) and Jaime and she will choose Kingsguard choosing duty over love.

[Newstar]

And just because that is your opinion, that romance means a Hollywood ending doesn't mean that is only way or even the correct way in interpreting it. ASOIAF is full of romance of various types. I know full well you dislike that, but it doesn't make it less true.

As I said, ASOIAF is full of precisely two types of romance "in-series": unrequited love, and mutual love tragically cut short. That's it. I know full well that you dislike it, but that doesn't make it any less true. The only happy mutual love couples who come into the series are shortly thereafter separated, with one killed off: Ned/Cat (happy couple in AGOT, Ned's dead less than one book later), Oberyn/Ellaria (happy couple in ASOS, Oberyn dead less than one book later), and so on.

Every "romance" you can name in series time has thus far fallen under category 1 or category 2, or looks like it will fall under category 1 or category 2 (unless you want to argue that Dany's going to wind up married for fifty years to Daario). There's no "lasting happy romantic ending," there's only "no unhappy romantic ending yet." There are no awesome, loving power couples who live for any length of time, only unhappily married couples (who live forever, it seems). There is no eternal young love, only very dead young love. If you've failed to recognize a pattern in between the fates of Dany/Drogo, Jon/Ygritte, Dany/Daario, Arys/Arianne, Renly/Loras, Tyrion/Shae, Stannis/Selyse, Dany/Jorah, Oberyn/Ellaria, Ned/Cat, Robb/Jeyne, etc. etc., well, then, I'd say you had a pattern recognition deficiency.

What there is a dearth of is a romance with anything like happy participants, now that Ned and Cat are gone.

Yeah, you're right, that is a good point. Hmmm...I wonder why that is? Is there some reason that we have hundreds of characters in ASOIAF and virtually no happy married/good-as-married couples for characters who aren't tragically separated or killed before long? Hmm...it seems strange...I wonder what the reason could possibly be...Nah, it couldn't have anything to do with GRRM being uninterested in characters' lasting romantic happiness, or writing about happy couples in love! That's crazy talk! It's gotta be something else!

However, a bittersweet ending does not prevent this in the least. For reference, see Lord of the Rings, which has a very bittersweet ending, and as I may remind you, have several romantic pairings going off: Sam/Rosie Cotton, Aragorn/Arwen and Faramir/Eowyn. And this is with romance taking a decided backseat in most of LOTR, yet despite that, and despite the very "correct" romantic endings with happy couples, children etc etc Tolkien still manages to create a very bittersweet ending without the slightest problem.

GRRM is not Tolkien, though, as much as his fans would like to think so, and you're probably better off looking at GRRM's other works than Tolkien's works as precedent. And from what I see from his other works--heck, even from his extended backstories for the Targs or for the Dunk/Egg stuff--he does not care about giving his characters lasting romantic happiness, or happiness of any description, even as a footnote or an afterthought! Even in the Wild Cards stories, you can barely rub together two happy, lasting love stories in the lot.

Again, I don't know why GRRM has such an aversion to writing happy, lasting couples in ASOIAF and his other stories, or making sure characters "wind up together," but he does. If you have a problem with it, perhaps you'd best take it up with him. Maybe you could show him some shippy fanfic as evidence for why your ship should be 2getha 4eva; you know how much he loves fanfic!

Besides, how does anyone think coming back to a sacked and burnt Winterfell to build it back up after all their family and everyone they knew are dead isn't going to be bittersweet, even if they managed to find some romance in their lives? It seriously boggles the mind.

Because again, lasting romantic happiness is not a priority for GRRM; he takes considerable care to avoid it, if anything. That's borne out by his treatment of romance in the books to date, where he seems to avoid happy couples--or even couples in a lasting romantic relationship in the same kingdom for any length of time--like the plague. He finds unrequited longing, lost loves, and tragic love affairs far more compelling, probably because they are.

The same goes for a Jaime/Brienne romance, there is nothing ever that says it will be one with a white picket fence, puppies and a perfect flower garden where little unicorn shit rainbows all day. All evidence suggest that it won't be, so I have no idea why people insist that a romance automatically means the things it doesn't mean, and that it excludes a bittersweet ending, which Tolkien already shown it doesn't. That is simply factually incorrect.

Because, as I said, GRRM is not Tolkien. It's no argument to say "GRRM has to put together characters at the end because Tolkien did!" So what? This is GRRM and not Tolkien, and GRRM is an author who has consistently written stories and narratives, mostly within the ASOIAF universe but also without, where characters only experience love, if they experience love at all, as unrequited or as a fleeting, tragic mutual love cut short. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it any less true.

I'm not saying Jaime and Brienne can't have a romance, but if they do, it won't last or be endgame (I don't think GRRM "does" endgame romantic pairings, really, at least in the sense of mutual love, I could see there being loveless political marriages as "endgame"), and it will be cut short tragically. No walking hand in hand into the sunset with their adorable blond badass babies. And again, this doesn't mean there can't be romance, just that it won't last very long. And hey, a super quick, tragic romance can be great stuff, the stuff of legendary love stories.

[Currawong]

There is a wealth of different types of relationship in ASOIAF, including arranged marriages and romantic relationships. Just as in RL, Martin shows that some are or end up happy, some just 'get along', and some are miserable. I can see no reason why J/B 'has' to end up tragically, nor do I see any evidence that GRRM doesn't write romances, or won't write some romances as 'happy'.

Also, as Lyanna Stark points out, 'bittersweet' can have many aspects, and the Faramir/Eowyn and Aragorn/Arwen pairings in LOTR are great examples. Sure, Faramir and Eowyn end up together, but their happiness is mingled with great personal loss - Faramir loses his brother and his father (indeed, his father tries to burn him rather then heal him!), and Eowyn loses her father, nearly sacrificing her own life in order to save him. Same with Aragorn and Arwen, especially with Arwen, who sacrifices the chance to go with all her elven kindred and stays with Aragorn. She is then left alone eventually when he dies before her. Both relationships are bittersweet in terms of the books' ending.

I could very easily see something like that happening to J/B. There are rumours that sellswords have landed on Tarth, so suppose Brienne gets back home only to find that her father has been killed, or hears the news while she is on the road? He is her only family, and she obviously loves him, and no matter how much she loves Jaime, she will have lost him with out seeing him for many months, and will probably feel guilty at not being there with him. Look at Jaime - he's already lost his father, and has 'lost' Tyrion in other ways, not to mention more distant relatives such as Kevan and possibly Tyrek. Suppose he ends the war with Brienne, but with all his close family dead - not just Tywin (and Joffrey, but we won't count him!), but also Cersei, Tommen, Myrcella and even Tyrion. Just because the Cersei-incest relationship is breaking down doesn't mean that her death will not shatter Jaime, especially if in some way he has something to do with it. Just because Jaime and Brienne might end up together with a chance to build a new life and have children doesn't mean that they and their relationship won't have been impacted by personal loss and tragedy.

Same with many other characters in the books, especially the surviving Starks. Again, as Lyanna Stark said:-

Besides, how does anyone think coming back to a sacked and burnt Winterfell to build it back up after all their family and everyone they knew are dead isn't going to be bittersweet, even if they managed to find some romance in their lives? It seriously boggles the mind.

ETA, after Newstar's post at the same time: No, GRRM is not Tolkien, but he does admire Tolkein tremendously. ASOIAF is way more complex than other GRRM works, meaning that there is far more scope for him to do things, and also to write aspects he has not fully tackled before. 'The human heart in conflict with itself' does not mean that he is going to end the books tragically for every single person or relationship - that would not be realistic, even for GRRM. If the last book is going to have the sense of spring following winter (which is what seems to be the case, judging by the proposed title), then there have to be some people - and relationships - remaining at the end, able to look forward and start on the necessary rebuilding.

[Newstar]

Also, as Lyanna Stark points out, 'bittersweet' can have many aspects, and the Faramir/Eowyn and Aragorn/Arwen pairings in LOTR are great examples. Sure, Faramir and Eowyn end up together, but their happiness is mingled with great personal loss - Faramir loses his brother and his father (indeed, his father tries to burn him rather then heal him!), and Eowyn loses her father, nearly sacrificing her own life in order to save him. Same with Aragorn and Arwen, especially with Arwen, who sacrifices the chance to go with all her elven kindred and stays with Aragorn. She is then left alone eventually when he dies before her. Both relationships are bittersweet in terms of the books' ending.

These would be relevant precedents, if, you know, GRRM wrote the LOTR series.

[Currawong]

These would be relevant precedents, if, you know, GRRM wrote the LOTR series.

See my comment, about GRRM admiring Tolkein! :D

They are also used as good examples of bittersweet endings for people, given that GRRM has used the term in his own description of how ASOIAF will end. The sense of personal loss and grief is almost palpable in Aragorn/Arwen and Faramir/Eowyn - the only happy, white picket fences with lots of little babies romance we really get is Sam/Rosie!

[Kittykatknits]

See my comment, about GRRM admiring Tolkein! :D

They are also used as good examples of bittersweet endings for people, given that GRRM has used the term in his own description of how ASOIAF will end. The sense of personal loss and grief is almost palpable in Aragorn/Arwen and Faramir/Eowyn - the only happy, white picket fences with lots of little babies romance we really get is Sam/Rosie!

Correct me if I'm wrong here, I know that Martin admires Tolkien's work and I know that the sack of WF was a direct allusion to the scouring of the shire. IIRC, Martin has brought up the end of LotR as an example of bittersweet but someone else may know better.

[Northern Nomad]

It could happen. I see them completing each other in a way. Jamie's body is useless he lost his hand, and turned from one of the best fighters in the realm, to one of the worst (of the fighters we know of course) Meanwhile Brienne is physically strong enough to put most knights to shame, but is fragile on the inside and feels guilty because she can't be a nice little lady, and therefore feels like she has dissapointed her father, amongst other things she feels bad about.

[Ragnorak]

And just because that is your opinion, that romance means a Hollywood ending doesn't mean that is only way or even the correct way in interpreting it. ASOIAF is full of romance of various types. I know full well you dislike that, but it doesn't make it less true.

What there is a dearth of is a romance with anything like happy participants, now that Ned and Cat are gone.

However, a bittersweet ending does not prevent this in the least. For reference, see Lord of the Rings, which has a very bittersweet ending, and as I may remind you, have several romantic pairings going off: Sam/Rosie Cotton, Aragorn/Arwen and Faramir/Eowyn. And this is with romance taking a decided backseat in most of LOTR, yet despite that, and despite the very "correct" romantic endings with happy couples, children etc etc Tolkien still manages to create a very bittersweet ending without the slightest problem.

The supposed opposition between "bittersweet" and "romance" does not exist.

Besides, how does anyone think coming back to a sacked and burnt Winterfell to build it back up after all their family and everyone they knew are dead isn't going to be bittersweet, even if they managed to find some romance in their lives? It seriously boggles the mind.

The same goes for a Jaime/Brienne romance, there is nothing ever that says it will be one with a white picket fence, puppies and a perfect flower garden where little unicorn shit rainbows all day. All evidence suggest that it won't be, so I have no idea why people insist that a romance automatically means the things it doesn't mean, and that it excludes a bittersweet ending, which Tolkien already shown it doesn't. That is simply factually incorrect.

Well said.

How an author who claims his work all boils down to the human heart in conflict with itself is excluded from having "romance" is a bit of a mystery to me.

Martin explains at length that changing the character ages for the HBO series was a pain and undesirable but legally required to keep the sex in the show. He says that should be seen as an indicator of how important he views "sex" as an aspect of the story. Maybe I'm misreading him and he just really, really likes the phrase "fat pink mast" but I got the sense that he was talking about sex as a motivator in real people's lives and their own personal struggles. Sex all by itself doesn't put the human heart in conflict with itself until you add in the love and romance and the jealousy and loyalty conflicts that come along with it.

[Trident full of Dogs]

My thoughts: No, absolutely no. Because Brienne is ugly.

When was the last time you read a book or saw a movie where a good-looking guy, or even a plain one, falls in love with a really ugly woman? I can remember Shallow Hal and that's it. And Shallow Hal is ultimately about that, seeing beauty in ugly people who have good hearts, and it is a comedy. Of course it's a comedy, how else would anyone believe it? Ugly women are the bastards of popular culture.

I don't think Jaime will ever get together with Brienne for those reasons, and if GRRM decides to defy the norm an write them as a couple, I'll be very happy to admit I was wrong... I Don't think I am though.

[snowleper]

Maybe in the show.... Maybe.

[The Mother of The Others]

To keep things simple for a sec,

When planning his war story, George may have set up a bunch of couples for failure. (Those listed above). The lack of happily ending love stories in ASOIAF underscores his theme of how war tears all these families apart. But humping must resume! (Or else the Others have won). So as the war draws to a close we might see the emergence of a second batch of couples, the rebound romances, to illustrate that life goes on.

So the outlook for any kind of love seems bleak now, because times are bleak?

But I also see the pattern you've pointed out. Love might just not be allowed to blossom in Westeros, period. Its absence may be his way of setting the tenor of the story, keeping things feeling harsh. Maybe it's just a harsh land. But new couplings will have to emerge, regardless. And the main thing stopping Jaime and Brienne from being one of those couples is they seem intent on throwing themselves into the wood chipper every chance they get. Eventually some situation almost has to chew them up. But one should read with hope, still. This is what allows George to dash our hope, which is the memorable "down" portion of this thrilling roller coaster adventure. So it's our duty to set ourselves up for the fall and make sure it hits us hard---by keeping our hopes intact.

[Currawong]

My thoughts: No, absolutely no. Because Brienne is ugly.

When was the last time you read a book or saw a movie where a good-looking guy, or even a plain one, falls in love with a really ugly woman?

Well, last time I read Pride and Prejudice, Elizabeth Bennett wasn't exactly pretty, despite how the movies and TV adaptations like to show her. Book Elizabeth may not be 'ugly' in the way that Brienne is described, but it is made very clear that she is most definitely not beautiful or pretty. But she is also described as having 'very fine eyes', a feature that Mr Darcy unwillingly notices and admits to. :D I don't know whether GRRM is deliciously channelling Jane Austen, but what feature of Brienne does Jaime notice with approval ...? :D

[Le Cygne]

Martin explains at length that changing the character ages for the HBO series was a pain and undesirable but legally required to keep the sex in the show. He says that should be seen as an indicator of how important he views "sex" as an aspect of the story. Maybe I'm misreading him and he just really, really likes the phrase "fat pink mast" but I got the sense that he was talking about sex as a motivator in real people's lives and their own personal struggles. Sex all by itself doesn't put the human heart in conflict with itself until you add in the love and romance and the jealousy and loyalty conflicts that come along with it.

That's true. I think sex is very important in these books. Sometimes wanting a kiss is really about wanting a kiss.

Here are a couple of those references you mentioned, I'll tag it so it doesn't take up space:

"One of the reasons I wanted to do this with HBO is that I wanted to keep the sex," he admitted. "We had some real problems because Dany is only 13 in the books, and that’s based on medieval history. They didn’t have this concept of adolescence or the teenage years. You were a child or you were an adult. And the onset of sexual maturity meant you were an adult. So I reflected that in the books."

But that's a problem for a TV show.

"So we ended up with a 22-year-old portraying an 18-year-old, instead of an 18-year-old portraying a 13-year-old," George said. "If we decided to lose the sex we could have kept the original ages. And once you change the age of one character you have to change the ages of all the characters, and change the date of the war [that dethroned the Mad King]."

"The fact we made all these changes indicates how important we thought sex was."

http://www.okmagazin...mes-thrones-hbo

And here at the 26 minute mark:

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I'd be surprised if Jamie survives the series. He's made a turn around but with so much bad that he's done redemption will probably only come in full sacrifice.

[Elba the Intoner]

Well, last time I read Pride and Prejudice, Elizabeth Bennett wasn't exactly pretty, despite how the movies and TV adaptations like to show her. Book Elizabeth may not be 'ugly' in the way that Brienne is described, but it is made very clear that she is most definitely not beautiful or pretty. But she is also described as having 'very fine eyes', a feature that Mr Darcy unwillingly notices and admits to. :D I don't know whether GRRM is deliciously channelling Jane Austen, but what feature of Brienne does Jaime notice with approval ...? :D

Yep although I would say that Elizabeth Bennet is not ugly, just that her sister Jane is considered the real pretty one. And as for an "ugly" heroine who ends up getting her man in the end, let me direct everyone's attention to - Jane Eyre.

[Theda Baratheon]

Yep although I would say that Elizabeth Bennet is not ugly, just that her sister Jane is considered the real pretty one. And as for an "ugly" heroine who ends up getting her man in the end, let me direct everyone's attention to - Jane Eyre.

Yes, Jane Eyre!

<3

[Currawong]

And as for an "ugly" heroine who ends up getting her man in the end, let me direct everyone's attention to - Jane Eyre.

Oooh yes - forgot her! (Prefer Austen to Bronte.) Two classic romances, with less-than-pretty heroines. And when you think about it, Jane Eyre is an even better literary precedent for J/B, given Jane's 'goodness' and her convoluted feelings for St John, and Rochester 's whole story with his wealth and his hidden wife, then what eventually happens to him.

Not suggesting of course that GRRM is in any way writing an Austen/Bronte style romance :) but he would certainly appreciate and relate to the core drama in both books because both are character driven, and in each case represents the 'human heart in conflict with itself'.

[JonNonRegis]

Not likely to happen. I agree with those who see Jaime dying inside the series.

Brienne's odds of survival are significantly better, and given her established pattern, she'll eventually find some other excessively pretty Renly/Jaime type to admire from afar.

Loras might do, assuming reports of his disfiguration are false. I don't think Brienne would settle for an average-looking man; her unrequited love demands the very best.