[Book Spoilers] EP301 Discussion

[Ross2013]

i think there is a 3rd way to look at it, LF was plumbing whether Sansa knew anything about Arya, like was she hiding something from him.

thats how I looked at it. he was fishing..

[winterstood]

"Since I can't prove that you are not mine." - Tywin to Tyrion

That little line isn't in the book is it? I don't recall it, and it seems to me like a little nod toward the A+J =T, if not just fanning the flames of a red herring. I don't remember Twyin ever voicing any suspiscion that Tyrion isn't his other than wishing his son wasn't a dwarf, and being ashamed that he was. This little scene is the first I know where Tywin suggests he has doubts of actual blood between him and Tyrion.

I think in Tywin's mind, A+J=T was true but in reality the converse was true: A+J=C+J. and that Tyrion is in fact Tywin's only true son. Just like that lady told Jaime at war council.

[winterstood]

The producers are on record as saying they can't make more than 10 episodes a season and debut once a year because it takes so much time to scout, film and edit everything.

And HBO owes you nothing. Be glad that the show is even on that channel instead of some awful channel like SyFy.

I never said HBO owed me anything so I'm not even sure where that comment is coming from. and if their budget was increased they'd most certainly be able to film more episodes because they could afford more directors (d-unit;e-unit; etc) shooting in parallel.

[Lyana]

Finally the wait is over and winter has come. I've counted the days and now ... it's on!

I have some minor remarks, but was sooooo tremendously happy the show is finally on, that I have to watch it again to pay attention to all the small details, which make this show so awesome.

But generally, here are some random thoughts in order of appearance:

- WW / Wights / Sam / Ghost (?#@???) - Sooo, last time the show left us with a shaking and scared Sam Tarly and a bunch of vicious White Walkers and marching Whights. And just as I thought for the moment they will pull off the whole "slayer" scene ... whoops ... there comes Ghost. So that was a WTPh moment. Definitely awkward. I thought I saw Ghost last time with Jon and Qhorin Halfhand deep into the wildlings territory. But I assume that Ghost has decided to take the black and go back to the Nights Watch. Some weak moment without the proper set up ... but I could let it go I guess. I am also a bit confused about the whole handling of the battle situation. I know it's all about the budget issues not showing the actual battle, but it is a bit strange how Sam has managed to escape this awful situation he was caught into at the end of season two.

- Jon / Ygritte / Tormund / Mance - So here it is ... the show starts immediately with the story development without losing any precious time. Ygritte was cool as always and the giant was impressive. The Tormund-Jon exchange was handled very well and the moment when Jon went down on his knees I burst out laughing. I was a bit disappointed about not being true to the book exactly in this scene ... but I guess Mance coundn't have seen Jon at the feast in Winterfell, cause he was outside whole the time. It would have been a nice touch but still confusing to the TV audience tho. It was the most D and D could have done out of this situation so .. kudos. Nice scene overall.

- Bronn / Podrick - At first I thought ... aughhh unnecessary ... but then as I saw it the second time I think it was handled nicely - show some typical HBO and introduce to us Bronn and Podrick in case we have forgotten about them. And the Bronn / Meryn Trant dialogue after that was spot on.

- The Tyrion / Cersei scene was not the finest, but it shows the changed dynamic in their relationship. The roles have switched and Tyrion has to adapt himself to the new situation. The following scene with Bronn was ... well Tyrion and Bronn - nothing could go wrong when they two are on screen together. Miss Varys tho.

- Davos / Salladhor - The scene was a smooth introduction to the current Stannis situation, giving the viewers a bit of information about the exiled king and reminding them who actually Stannis is and what is he doing after the Black Water battle. The dialogue between Davos and Salladhor is very well written and it's a nice scene overall.

- Robb (no KitN s/o ?) / Roose / Catelyn / the new wife (forgot her name) - Well I have to say I am surprised no one shouted "King in the North" this time as we saw King Robb. Foreshadowing much? I was actually really confused after this scene and as I read on the thread I see I'm not the only one. The story was somehow too fast-paced imho. I had to recall what happened at the previous season and the book to try to explain to myself what were all these corpses doing there. And suddenly ... the King decides mommy must go to prison as he sees all the dead bodies. A bit unconvincing but .. I could still buy it. And of course we see the new hot wife for a little bit in case we have forgotten she exists. The Roos / Karstark dialogue was a nice touch tho and introducing Qyburn was a pleasant surprise. Bur overall ... a weak start for the young wolf.

- Here comes the highlight of the episode - the Tywin / Tyrion scene. We see somehow the resemblance and the big difference between the two. They detest and admire each other at the same time. Peter is one whole with his character and we see the whole bitterness literally glare through his body. We finally get to see Tywin as the as*****e he is. For a moment I thought they are going to make us actually like Tywin at season two and make him a decent person. So generally Charles Dance and Peter Dinklage has done an outstanding job and delivered us the best performance in this episode.

- Sansa / Shae / Littlefinger / Ross - Not the best scene ever I would say. But we are reminded about the Littlefinger / Sansa plot. The Shae / Ross dialogue was a bit annoying but I didn't mind it after all. I'm also wandering if Petyr has recognized Arya at Harrenhal and is playin his little games now. Still waiting for Sansa to become a player.

- Aaaand here comes the queen! Bow down, bit***s! The scenes in Astapor were surprisingly well handled after the season two Quarth fiasco. I liked all of it - dragons, Ser Jorah's puppy look, the whole bargaining dialogue (we could tell she understood what they were talking about, yeah) and of course the early, but I would say necessary revealing of Ser Barristan. Everything well written and straight to the point - kudos.

- Stannis definitely not the Mannis / Mel /Davos - I try really, really hard to convince my boyfriend (a non-book reader) that Stannis is a cool guy. I have almost succeeded at the Blackwater episode .... But the TV script somehow manages to throw my whole attempts out of the window. Obviously the TV Stannis (although better looking somehow) is some puppet in Mel's hands, who didn't care about his close friend, who has named the Hand of the King. I sincerely hope we have same better character development as the show goes on.

- Joffrey / Margaery (did I read a Kate Middleton comparison somewhere?) / Cersei - I loved it how Joffrey is attempting to behave himself more mannish because of Margaery. One could tell he likes her but make no mistake ... she is definitely not Sansa. And Joff and Cersei kow that very well. The whole charity thing was very well handled politically. It is obvious this one is aiming for the big game. Watch out, Cersei ... new qeen in da house :)

Overall it was a godt episode with nice set up and good writing, but the visual part could have definitely been more impressive. Compared to the pilot episode from the previous season, this one did not have many visual eye-candies. But still very excited! Can't wait for the next one :)

[victim]

Only part that confused me was when Tywin said: "I have Seven Kingdoms to run, three of which are in open rebellion."

I counted four: North, Riverlands, Iron Islands and Stormlands/Dragonstone.

[Arrogant Bastard]

Only part that confused me was when Tywin said: "I have Seven Kingdoms to run, three of which are in open rebellion."

I counted four: North, Riverlands, Iron Islands and Stormlands/Dragonstone.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but do the Riverlands count as a kingdom? I'm only basing this off of Robert's "making the eight" speech in season one, as he said all seven kingdoms plus the Riverlands.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

Although I liked this episode overall giving it an 8/10, I'll start off with my only major gripe - the sloppiness of the cold open at/around the Fist. The utter lack of continuity with last season's final scene was disappointing, although not unprecedented as many TV shows in the past have similarly retconned cliffhangers. Perhaps it can serve as a good lesson for D&D that ending a season on a cliffhanger is often not a great idea, as the resolution the next season is rarely satisfying. The wight that got after Sam didn't look or move like a wight at first glance and some of the folks I was watching with last night thought it was a wildling. I did think Ghost intervening was pretty cool, as it at least let us know he's still around and the direwolf visual effects were very convincing. But then we have Mormont's awkward conversation with Sam, which didn't make a lot of sense as Sam wasn't even at the Fist when he heard the horn blasts (another residual gaffe from last season's end). Then Mormont's speech just sorta ended and BLAM, theme song. Jarring, weird way to open a new season.

Thankfully, the rest was mostly good-to-excellent, and put it roughly on par with last season's first episode. Some comments:

• Jon's intro to the wildling camp was understated, but fun. LOVED the giant, which I was not expecting to see, and Jon's pants-soiling reaction shot to it. Jon meeting Mance wasn't as epic by comparison, but it was amusing and effective. Mance and Tormund are obviously different characters than in the books, but I think I'm ok with that. Hinds is such a great actor whose presence as a leader of 'hunnerds and thousands' of wildlings is very believable, and Tormund looks like he'll be fun to watch (though not in a huge-member-joke kind of way).
  
• Bronn & Tyrion, and Tyrion & Cersei scenes were great as always.
  
• Tyrion / Tywin was one of the best two-character conversation scenes in the series thus far, which is saying a lot. Doesn't hurt that it was almost line-for-line from the text (a favorite chapter of mine, at that) but the actors absolutely nailed their performances. Tywin listening with something resembling bemusement while Tyrion made his case for Casterly Rock, Tywin's devastatingly comprehensive retort, Tyrion's mix of shock, hurt and seething rage all just beneath the surface - just pure brilliance and powerful drama. How fortunate this series is to have such stellar actors in these roles.
  
• Sansa/Shae/LF was nicely done, and a needed scene to set up LF's plan to "rescue" Sansa. Interestingly it appears LF did recognize Arya last season at Harrenhal. I'm interested to see what if anything he plans to do with this information, apart from being truthful in telling Sansa he'd seen her (after all, when was LF ever concerned about the truth?).
  
• Robb & forces at Harrenhal - good stuff, especially the surprise reveal of Qyburn! Also, Roose's comments to Karstark sent a chill up my spine, considering where their storylines are inevitably headed. McElhatton's got Roose's corpse-cold delivery down pat. :stunned:
  
• Both of Margaery scenes were very effective in conveying the Tyrells' motives subtly but convincingly. A masterful blend of charm and nuanced manipulation. Well played, and I can't wait to see the QoT's contribution to the mix.
  
• Holy shit did Davos ever look rough after being washed up on the rocks - great job by the production crew there. Salla was hilarious; I wish they'd find a way to get him more screen time. The scene with Stan, Mel and Davos was very effective in showing the hold Mel has over Stannis right now. I hope the show will take the same tack as the books here - that Stannis yields to Mel because he sees the truth in her prophecies (i.e., telling him in advance that not only was Davos alive, but intent on murdering Mel).
  
• Dany's scenes were mostly great. The ship/dragons sequence was breathtaking and badass at once. The bartering scene with the Unsullied was faithful to the book and thus a mixture of hilarious and disturbing. The final scene was a mixed bag for me. The action around the assassination attempt was awkward as others have pointed out, and the manticore was a good deal more fake looking than is typical for this show's SFX. That said, Barristan's appeal to Dany was moving, and a nice uplifting way to end the episode. So glad to have him back on board.
  

[TheDarkOne]

I thought the scene with Joff was awesome! Great stuff.

Not having Strong in the story is ok, I can live with that.

Mance is horribly miscast. The look, the presence, it's totally off. McNulty would have been great for the role, or John Huston if you believe the rumours. Most of the casting has been spot on, but wow is this a miss.

[TheDarkOne]

- Stannis definitely not the Mannis / Mel /Davos - I try really, really hard to convince my boyfriend (a non-book reader) that Stannis is a cool guy. I have almost succeeded at the Blackwater episode .... But the TV script somehow manages to throw my whole attempts out of the window. Obviously the TV Stannis (although better looking somehow) is some puppet in Mel's hands, who didn't care about his close friend, who has named the Hand of the King. I sincerely hope we have same better character development as the show goes on.

Love your review. To the above point, it comes of like the TV show needs to have a "villain" character and they awkwardly are trying to shoe horn Stannis into that. I don't like it at all, and compared to the source material it feels way off base.

[Delmas]

I thought the scene with Joff was awesome! Great stuff.

Not having Strong in the story is ok, I can live with that.

Mance is horribly miscast. The look, the presence, it's totally off. McNulty would have been great for the role, or John Huston if you believe the rumours. Most of the casting has been spot on, but wow is this a miss.

I liked Mance, to say a guy is horribly miscast after 5 minutes of screentime to me seems rushed.

I really hope his story line dosent get shit on.

[Khal Porno]

It's going to be much more difficult for TV Tyrion to justify the murder of TV Shae unless they add in a whole lot of new stuff, it was fairly obvious in the book that Shae was what she was, and that it was Tyrion who was projecting all of his feelings and emotions onto her and there was nothing much in the books to show it was reciprocated, so when she turns on him, its no big surprise.

TV Shae is a 'whore with a heart of gold' who cares about Tyrion, wants to run away with him, cares about Sansa and is ready to risk her life for both of them. How is Tyrion going to be justified in strangling this person who bears no resemblance to the cold gold digger Shae of the books?

As I've said before (sorry to those who notice me repeating myself), when I read the book it seemed like it was intentionally ambiguous whether Shae actually betrayed Tyrion or was forced into it by Tywin and was playing along. Obviously there was no ambiguity from Tyrion's perspective, but it seemed to me to be written for the audience to consider both sides.

If they go this way in the show, I think they will make it clear that Shae was forced into whatever situation she's in (and would likely be trying to save Tyrion by sleeping with Tywin), but Tyrion will think she has just betrayed him and murder her. This is actually far more tragic than the situation in the books, in my opinion.

On the other hand, as others have suggested here, Shae may be taking the place of Tysha for the "wherever whores go" thing.

Either is just peachy to me, but to be honest I think Tyrion killing the only woman who loves him over a misunderstanding would be tremendously dramatic and heartwrenching, and just all around excellent TV, so I hope that's the route they take.

I feel crazy sometimes because it seems like I'm the only one here who read it this way.

[Words of Winter]

Gotta love HBO's April Fool's joke:

http://hbowatch.com/...il-season-four/

Even got a stab at book readers:

I read this while this site was having, um, issues. Wow. I was taken in - until the reveal. :bang: :tantrum: I can't believe I fell for it. I was burning mad because I thought they killed the golden goose and if they did that they would kill it in other ways too.

Then I felt like an idiot. :ack:

[victim]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but do the Riverlands count as a kingdom? I'm only basing this off of Robert's "making the eight" speech in season one, as he said all seven kingdoms plus the Riverlands.

This is true actually, my bad. I always thought of the Seven Kingdoms as: The North, the Riverlands, Stormlands, Vale, Iron Islands, the Reach, Dorne and the Westerlands, which all together actually equals 8.

[Moseh Khayim]

Never mind.

[HouseLark]

Although I liked this episode overall giving it an 8/10, I'll start off with my only major gripe - the sloppiness of the cold open at/around the Fist. The utter lack of continuity with last season's final scene was disappointing, although not unprecedented as many TV shows in the past have similarly retconned cliffhangers. Perhaps it can serve as a good lesson for D&D that ending a season on a cliffhanger is often not a great idea, as the resolution the next season is rarely satisfying. The wight that got after Sam didn't look or move like a wight at first glance and some of the folks I was watching with last night thought it was a wildling. I did think Ghost intervening was pretty cool, as it at least let us know he's still around and the direwolf visual effects were very convincing. But then we have Mormont's awkward conversation with Sam, which didn't make a lot of sense as Sam wasn't even at the Fist when he heard the horn blasts (another residual gaffe from last season's end). Then Mormont's speech just sorta ended and BLAM, theme song. Jarring, weird way to open a new season.

I really don't get the controversy over the "cold open" - I had no idea what everyone was going on about in truth, it's not a term I'd heard before. It worked OK. Like everyone I would have loved to have seen the battle at the Fist but we never got that in the books either. I also did not see any retconning, so I'd need that one explaining to me. Sam wasn't on the Fist, but he should have got back there as Edd managed to, so that he could release the ravens. I'm not claiming this was a great scene but the Fist situation had to be resolved and if nothing else it established that the Watch had been involved in a battle, they were on the run, and they are being harried. That's the essentials. By contrast, I'm less than thrilled that Ghost is with the watch. He's Jon's shadow so I can't see him leaving him willingly. Plus Ghost needs to get back to Jon at some point if we're to get any sort of hint of his ability to warg - I assumed Orell would be the one to detect this. I do agree with you about the wight thought, he looked and moved like a White Walker rather than a wight.

For book fans, opening north of The Wall has kept to the books' convention of alternating between north and south in the prologues/opening scenes (even if season two didn't open with a maester it was still in King's Landing).

[HouseLark]

I thought that this was a better opening episode than we got for series two. We spent a bit longer with each character but managed to cover quite a lot of ground. With a series that has such a large cast and so many different locations, these opening episodes that (re-)establish the narrative will always be imperfect but I thought this season they did as well as possible with it. Plus we got some exceptional scenes between Tyrion and Tywin and Dany and Kraznys (it's worth noting here that both of those scenes were almost taken verbatim from the book...). I also loved Stannis' scene. Dillane absolutely nailed that haunted look. You could see the steel of the old Stannis but he's just suffered a grievous loss in his bid for the Throne and he's suffering from that; he even looked older and greyer.

A few things fell flat for me.

1. The first was Stark's men turning up at Harrenhall. This was a bit confusing since we had no idea that either northmen were being held there or that the Mountain's men had left.
   
2. Second, with every episode I dislike Sibil Kekkili's performance more and more. She's a good actress but in Thrones, she always sounds as thought she's reading from a cue card.
   
3. Third, and most important, Littlefinger's behaviour is becoming inexplicable. He would never have operated in the open as he did here. I really don't understand why the writers didn't go down the road of A. N. Other helping Sansa escape King's Landing with a big reveal later on that Littlefinger was behind it all. It did not need to be Ser Dontos, it could even have been Ros (residual loyalty to her former lord, pity for an abused young girl, etc). This Littlefinger would have been caught out by Varys ten times over by now.
   
4. Fourth, I hated Margaery's Princess Diana/Kate Middleton routine. I get that it established her as a friend of the commons but it would have been more effective to stick to the book and have Tyrell men/women handing out food to all rather than giving toys to orphans. Food would win over a starving people, not wooden knights. Generally I like Natalie Dormer's Margaery but the orphanage scene just reeked of a contemporary tabloid news story.
   

It was still a great episode and I loved the little touches such as Drogon roasting a fish in mid-air, and I'm generally happy that Dany is finally doing something. In a similar vein, Jon seems to be back on track, thinking on his feet and proving himself to be smart rather than bumbling around like a moron. Ciaran Hinds should also dismiss any doubts about his casting as Mance; he might be older than many would have liked but Hinds is ridiculously talented and I can't wait to see more of his scenes, and then we have Diana Rigg incoming as well (I pray to sweet R'hllor that she gets a scene with Charles Dance).

[Azor Ahoy!]

It's a bit of a 'meh'.

Tyrion's parts were overly talky with Cersei and Bronn although I liked the Tywin conversation. Jon's faked motivation for joining the Wildlings is also dubious- doesn't the Night's Watch fight for the living? ("I am the shield that guards the realms of men") although he was in a tight spot so maybe that can be excused.

Dany's scenes were good though and I was relieved they skipped the Arstan crap although I do miss Strong Belwas.

Davos's scenes were fair as well.

Was relieved Arya didn't appear at all- I skipped all her chapters in the books until she joins the FM.

[White Harbors Wrath]

Jon's faked motivation for joining the Wildlings is also dubious- doesn't the Night's Watch fight for the living? ("I am the shield that guards the realms of men") although he was in a tight spot so maybe that can be excused.

Wasn't that the entire point of him going into detail on his disappointment in Mormonts reaction to Casters feeding his sons to Walkers? That the Watch is NOT who they're claiming to be?

[Loras]

Wasn't that the entire point of him going into detail on his disappointment in Mormonts reaction to Casters feeding his sons to Walkers? That the Watch is NOT who they're claiming to be?

That was the impression I got from that scene too. It was nice to see that one of the big departures from the books came back into the story. It really gives me faith in D&Ds adaptation.

[DrRobotnik]

I have a bad feeling about the Dany arc. They're moving way too fast. If they end with Yunkai, that's a whole season dedicated to the siege of Meereen. Or alternatively they'd be cutting into DwD material and jeopardize the future of the series. DwD contains a lot of Dany chapters, but probably not enough to last three seasons and still keep the viewer base.