So, now, it is wrong to tell the truth?

[Inkdaub7]

Sometimes it seems to me that our culture celebrates insult. We seek it out and revel in it at any and all opportunity.

[polishgenius]

Sometimes it seems to me that our culture celebrates insult. We seek it out and revel in it at any and all opportunity.

...what?

[Horza]

...what?

This fellow's ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to his newsletter.

[S John]

I guess the main reason is that even if this comment can be construed as sexist, no-one in their right mind would assume that Obama is sexist overall. Whereas there's a sad narrative of Republicans making comments that are unquestionably sexist.

In fairness, I don't think that could ever be applied to Dubya. He could be accused of a lot of things, but not sexism that I ever recall. It may be that I'm just paying more attention now, and there's obviously a reason why women vote more liberal in general, but it's only since Obama got elected and the republicans took a serious lurch towards both the right and insanity that it's really become a thing on a really baffling scale.

Yea, I'd agree with that assessment. A lot of it does just come down to whether or not your guy is in charge. While Bush 2 was responsible for some major fuck-ups as president, personally, I have never felt that he was an evil man. I think he was ill-informed and unqualified, but not a terrible person. I do think he did what he thought was best for the countrry, just sucks that he was wrong on a lot of things.

I definitely remember him being skewered in the media and elsewhere all the time, so the idea that only Republicans are capable of jumping at every little thing the president does is laughable. I think there is a large-ish minority of Americans for whom it is not possible for Obama to do anything right, and that was also most definitely the case for Bush too. There is a certain subset of hardened partisans on both sides and it wouldn't matter if the president ended poverty and cured all known diseases they'd still find ways to hate his guts because it ain't their guy.

That said, the degree to which those on the right hate Obama as a person is kicked up a notch, imo. The most common slur against Bush was that he was an idiot, but I don't recall people openly discussing secession or rebellion or any of that nonsense. With Obama I think it goes beyond just disliking his policies, you get the feeling that there is something about him specifically that extra pisses them off. I don't think Obama has done a perfect job by any stretch of the imagination but its pretty easy to see that he's stone-walled a lot in a way that Bush never was.

[Roose Seal]

That said, the degree to which those on the right hate Obama as a person is kicked up a notch, imo. The most common slur against Bush was that he was an idiot, but I don't recall people openly discussing secession or rebellion or any of that nonsense. With Obama I think it goes beyond just disliking his policies, you get the feeling that there is something about him specifically that extra pisses them off. I don't think Obama has done a perfect job by any stretch of the imagination but its pretty easy to see that he's stone-walled a lot in a way that Bush never was.

Well gee I wonder what that is !

But anyway, the comment was innapropriate. Women constantly have their merits judged according to their physical appearance, so that little extra "compliment", even if intended as a joke, was completely unnecessary.

[Tears of Lys]

^ ^

name='Horza' timestamp='1365421179' post='4290981']

This fellow's ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to his newsletter.

Good points, SJohn.

ETA: Well, that was poor timing.

I was indicating that Otter's post was thoughtful and I found it interesting.

[Robin Of House Hill]

This is what it took to get Ser Robin on Obama's side. I knew it had to be possible.

WTF? the last presidential election I voted in, I voted for Obama. Besides, this isn't about Obama. It is about criticsim for speaking the truth.

The comment is inappropriate. Women are judged by their appearance in professional environments -- it affects pay, responsibility, promotions, the works. Comments like this one help to perpetuate the imbalance. I'm sure he didn't mean anything by it, but it's unhelpful and the President ought to know better.

I call bullshit. A fat ugly man who picks his nose, isn't likely to get promotions, All people are judged on their appearance. It doesn't make sense. but humans are are apparently hardwired to be stupid.

[Blisscraft]

Criticism for speaking the truth seems rather mild conpared to some places where speaking the truth can get you killed.

[Sci-2]

Well gee I wonder what that is !

They hate this white half. Or that's what was conveyed in the last Bohemian Grove orgy I attended.

[TerraPrime]

I call bullshit. A fat ugly man who picks his nose, isn't likely to get promotions,

There are, literally, books written on how women's physical appearance is used as basis of evaluating their job performance in ways that a man's physical appearance is not. Attribution of merit, for instance, is low for attractive women (she succeeds because she looks good, not because she's competent) whereas the reverse is true for men. This is not a matter of opinion any more - these are facts. You may wish to opine on *how* these facts come to be, but let's move this discussion away from fact-denial, shall we?

[TerraPrime]

Sometimes it seems to me that our culture celebrates insult. We seek it out and revel in it at any and all opportunity.

I am insulted by the stupidity exemplified in this statement, and yet, it was right there splashed onto my screen and I did not have to go look for it. Therefore, your supposition is wrong.

[TrackerNeil]

Yeah; the President probably knows the attorney general at least a little bit and is therefore more likely to know if she's cool with it than a bloke with some random server in a restaurant.

Right, right...and the words of that bloke in the restaurant are likely to be broadcast and heard by millions, and then written about and read by millions more.

[Robin Of House Hill]

There are, literally, books written on how women's physical appearance is used as basis of evaluating their job performance in ways that a man's physical appearance is not. Attribution of merit, for instance, is low for attractive women (she succeeds because she looks good, not because she's competent) whereas the reverse is true for men. This is not a matter of opinion any more - these are facts. You may wish to opine on *how* these facts come to be, but let's move this discussion away from fact-denial, shall we?

Links to statistics published by reputable sources (not sources with an agenda)?

[sologdin]

fat ugly man who picks his nose, isn't likely to get promotions, All people are judged on their appearance

maybe, maybe not. but only douches call attention to the physical appearance of others, positive or negative, unless it's, yaknow, a lover.

[Robin Of House Hill]

fat ugly man who picks his nose, isn't likely to get promotions, All people are judged on their appearance

maybe, maybe not. but only douches call attention to the physical appearance of others, positive or negative, unless it's, yaknow, a lover.

I guess that eliminates the use of short, tall, black white thin, fat, etc. I find it amusing that the second part of your sig means, "freedom to the people", but you appear to support a grotesque form of popularly encouraged self-censorship. Sorry, not my idea of freedom.

[alguien]

Do you have evidence that Obama has made similar comments about a man who works for him? In a public statement where he was commenting on this person's credential for his job and then threw in a line about how attractive and good looking this man is?

Yes. There is numerous examples where he's done this:

http://video.msnbc.m...442542#51442542

I think its just an informal speech tactic that he uses.

I also think that the reaction from pundits on Twitter was (calculated) hyperbole.

ETA: thinking more about this nontopic, I do believe that complementing a person's physical appearance is a political tool in the president's arsenal that he uses fairly often, and for both sexes.

I don't believe he meant anything beyond complimenting the physical appearance of a very talented individual--something that in most circumstances should be OK if its done appropriately.

However, since the problem of objectification of women in professional settings still exists in the US, under the circumstances, during a public address, it would have been wiser for him to leave it out. Its too easy to misconstrue meaning and add negative reinforcement to an already complicated issue.

I still find the outraged reactions to the whole thing ridiculous.

[Sci-2]

Meh, I disagree. Why should a woman's merits be end bracketed with "plus she's gorgeous!" at all? Looks have absolutely nothing to do with how amazing she is at her job (or they shouldn't) and therefore any commentary on her looks in conjunction with her job qualifications only further perpetuate that it is acceptable to remark upon a women's physical image at any time even if it has nothing to do with the matter at hand.

It doesn't matter if the remark was a compliment. If he wanted to remark upon her physical attractive qualities, doing so in conjunction with her list of professional qualities was the wrongest time to do so. Gods, it's fucking exhausting, already, to be constantly marginalized because of physical appearance.

Yeah it sets a bad precedent. I was surprised Obama did this.

I don't see why he shouldn't be criticized as anyone acting unprofessionally should be, which is different than over the top condemnation.

[Horza]

Surprising discovery: treating women as ornamentation has a negative impact on perceptions of their suitability for office.

Also:

In Women for President: Media Bias in Nine Campaigns, Erika Falk examined media coverage of every female presidential candidate in American history, from Victoria Woodhull in 1872 to Hillary Clinton in 2008. Female candidates were subjected to four times the appearance-based coverage that male candidates were. And the trend didn’t budge across the 136-year sample: Journalists in 2004 described Carol Moseley Braun’s body more frequently than journalists in 1872 touched on Woodhull’s looks. Independent studies have found similar gender discrepancies in media coverage of 2008 vice presidential candidates Sarah Palin and Joe Biden, and 2000 presidential contenders Elizabeth Dole, George W. Bush, Steve Forbes, and John McCain.

[Castel]

Yeah it sets a bad precedent. I was surprised Obama did this.

I don't see why he shouldn't be criticized as anyone acting unprofessionally should be, which is different than over the top condemnation.

Because the minute you criticize Obama someone will come and remind you of how this criticism of Obama is getting out of hand. S/he would have been able to take you seriously but you (by you s/he means everyone) do this all the time so he can't. Bonus points for bringing up the "Thanks Obama" meme.

See:anyone who said anything about his 5% paycut.

[Sci-2]

Because the minute you criticize Obama someone will come and remind you of how this criticism of Obama is getting out of hand. S/he would have been able to take you seriously but you (by you s/he means everyone) do this all the time so he can't. Bonus points for bringing up the "Thanks Obama" meme.

See:anyone who said anything about his 5% paycut.

You lost me bro.