[Book Spoilers] Is Loras really the plan?

[Lord Varys]

Garlan could get a cameo during the Purple Wedding. Surely they'll have Mace attending the wedding of his precious daughter, why not show him with one of his sons, and his wife? The fact that Olenna continued to rant about her son, the audience is going to be quite eager to meet this oafish Lord Tyrell.

But I really doubt that Willas is going to be cut as an existing character.

[Elba the Intoner]

Why wouldn't they match up a gay man with a woman? You do realize that all nobility needs to marry, right? Furthermore it never has anything whatsoever to do with happy marriages, it's about alliances and power. And in what way would anyone care if Sansa isn't happy with her marriage after it's done? They want her claim to the North, they aren't trying to set up a match making service. The Tyrell's aren't a bunch of friendly angels, they are as devious as everyone else and as soon as the marriage is done their plans would be complete.

And even if we go by the books, Sansa would rather be married to a gay Loras than his cripple brother. She wouldn't be happy either way but at least she'd have her ideal image to show to others, even if it's a false one.

Yes exactly. As you say, the Tyrells' don't care about whether she will be happy but rather only about her claim to the North. This is stressed in the Varys-Olenna conversation when they say how should Robb fail then she is the key to the North. And as Dontos told her in the books, the Tyrells are like the Lannisters only with thorns.

But what I don't like about this change from the books is that Sansa was willing to make the marriage work with Willas who was a cripple despite not having met him and despite the fact that he was crippled. She had determined in her mind to make him love her in time which is quite a mature thought process. Now she just comes off as not having matured or changed that much at all.

[Loras Stan]

Loras cannot be the heir to Highgarden, by the way. Neither Mace nor Olenna would have allowed Loras to join Renly's Kingsguard if he had been Mace's only son. Nor would they allowed him to enter into a long-term homosexual relationship when he has to secure the continuation of the main line of House Tyrell. It just doesn't make any sense. And the smart move of the Willas plot in the book was that Sansa would have been married to the eldest Tyrell son. Willas would have been Lord of Highgarden and Lord Protector of the North, and his eldest son heir to Highgarden and the North!

You bring up some really good points. If he was the heir he wouldn't have been pledged to Renly as he was. But I feel D&D is just forgetting all this stuff, so as not having to introduce more Tyrells. I don't know--sometimes I think they are doing well with things, but this is just shoddily done, and creates more questions/problems than just adding Willas "not appearing in person" Tyrell.

I can only hope they get wise to this, and add Garlan and/or Tyrell s4/s5. But I'm not holding my breath.

[Lord Varys]

They have not yet made Loras Mace's only son in the show. So there's still hope left. They seem to be not so confident in namedropping characters who won't make an appearance on the show in the near future (neither Trystane, nor Doran Martell were mentioned during season 2, when Tyrion arranged Myrcella's betrothal), and I can understand that to a degree.

But the fact that ASoS was split in two seasons should have bought both the time and the opportunity to make Willas an interesting off-screen character. I realize that choosing Loras instead was tempting, but it really causes more problems that it solves, and if they wanted to give additional scenes to Finn Jones and Sophie Turner, they could have done so easily enough. It would have been really funny, for instance, if Margaery and Olenna had unwittingly (?) led both Sansa and the audience to believe that Sansa was supposed to marry Loras.

[Runaway Penguin]

Yes exactly. As you say, the Tyrells' don't care about whether she will be happy but rather only about her claim to the North. This is stressed in the Varys-Olenna conversation when they say how should Robb fail then she is the key to the North. And as Dontos told her in the books, the Tyrells are like the Lannisters only with thorns.

Do not forget Dontos had reason to say so as well, and reason to dissuade Sansa - because Littlefinger is after her claim as well.

[The Unborn]

Yes exactly. As you say, the Tyrells' don't care about whether she will be happy but rather only about her claim to the North. This is stressed in the Varys-Olenna conversation when they say how should Robb fail then she is the key to the North. And as Dontos told her in the books, the Tyrells are like the Lannisters only with thorns.

But what I don't like about this change from the books is that Sansa was willing to make the marriage work with Willas who was a cripple despite not having met him and despite the fact that he was crippled. She had determined in her mind to make him love her in time which is quite a mature thought process. Now she just comes off as not having matured or changed that much at all.

You seem to forget that she was willing to love Willas because it was a way to escape King's Landing and Joff. Because the Tyrells were so good to her. Because she would be the lady of Highgarden. Not because she was in love with a cripple who she never even met.

[MacNille]

I would have been alot happier if it was Garlan or Willas. That would have made alot more sense then Loras. I'm also that kind of guy who want everything from the book into the show.

[Gannicus]

This is a great change. Loras can easily play the role of the other two brothers up through ADWD, and it will be so much more powerful knowing Sansa actually wants Loras.

[Mother of Mini Dragons]

Choosing Loras as Sansa's match really is stupid. I did not think I'd mind that all that much, but considering that both Varys and Olenna are supposed to be shrewd and clever in the show I don't see how they would ever consider a match between a straight girl and gay man a good move. Especially Lady Olenna would arrange her very own domestic tragedy this way! Sansa won't adore Loras anymore after she has found out about his sexual preferences. A much better idea would have been to make Sansa believe they were about to betroth her to Loras but were instead trying to secure her for Willas.

As to the other Tyrell brothers: I guess they are still around. Loras will eventually join the Kingsguard, and then he'll end up ghastly burned and half-dead. Which would effectively leave Mace Tyrell without male heir. I don't see that happening, especially since both Willas and Garlan may play important roles later on.

This doesn't make any sense. They don't care that Loras is gay. He is an heir to great family and (until he joins the KG) he has a certain duty to produce more heirs. Renly's sexual preferences didn't stop the Tyrells from having Margaery marry him.

[Elba the Intoner]

You seem to forget that she was willing to love Willas because it was a way to escape King's Landing and Joff. Because the Tyrells were so good to her. Because she would be the lady of Highgarden. Not because she was in love with a cripple who she never even met.

No I didn't forget that. However, despite that she didn't have many other choices and was desperate to get out of King's Landing, we did see in her thought process that she would try to make the best of the situation. She wanted to be a good wife to someone whom she had never met and had learned that he was crippled, which was a sign of her maturing and learning to accept a situation that was not her ideal anymore. We won't get that with this change to her marrying Loras.

[Minsc]

No I didn't forget that. However, despite that she didn't have many other choices and was desperate to get out of King's Landing, we did see in her thought process that she would try to make the best of the situation. She wanted to be a good wife to someone whom she had never met and had learned that he was crippled, which was a sign of her maturing and learning to accept a situation that was not her ideal anymore. We won't get that with this change to her marrying Loras.

If we got that it might led to a situation where viewers don't extremely sympathize with poor Tyrion when "shallow" Sansa rejects him during their marriage, instead there could be a possibility of the viewer being angry at the savior Tyrion when he crushes her dreams. And we are know that TV show cannot portray Tyrion as a morally complex and grey character.

[sagaz]

Or plan the Tyrells and Varys Sansa and Tyrion?

I recall there will be scene with TQoT and Tyrion, then the meeting of Varys and TQoT. Knowing that Loras is gay, or better that they know, I would say they just putting the plot up to force Tywin to act.

Something like this: -pretend to want to marry Sansa to Loras -> tell Lord Tywin -> he acts -> Sansa marries Tyrion -> LF doesn't get the North ->maybe potential ally (The scene with Tyrion and Varys. Tyrion want revenge and varys is happy to help him because it suits his plans in the long term)

I just mean in the show, is Tywin actually played by them?

What do you think?

It could be... it's a very fine Varys scheme.

[All-for-Joffrey]

I think people in this thread are making way too much hay about Loras being gay.

What do they care if he's gay? The bottom line is that all nobles, particularly the Great houses, need all their children to marry to ensure their line and strengthen their position (in this case getting the best available claim to Winterfell and the North). Loras' sexual orientation is simply not a factor in the equation. Even if he is a third son.

If they had thought this was an issue, why did they let their daughter Margery marry Renly in the first place? Oh right, for political reasons!

For those that think Loras would be unable to produce heirs with Sansa or would be as obtuse as Renly was about making babies with Margery, I'm sure the Queen of Thrones would insist on standing over the bed with a stick beating Loras until he inseminated her. Or something (you know HBO would go there).

Anyway, back from the realm of the creepy, in order to mirror Sansa's shock and disappointment to learn that she's marrying a cripple (Willas) like in the books, maybe a subplot over the next episode or two could involve her learning that Loras is gay, which would obviously make her about as dismayed as learning that her future husband is a cripple.

Also, to whatever poster mentioned Loras' future wife potentially mocking him for being gay and effeminate -- what exactly about Loras strikes you as effeminate? Or are you just displaying cultural stereotypes and equating homosexuality with effeminacy?

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I think people in this thread are making way too much hay about Loras being gay.

What do they care if he's gay?

I think Sansa certainly would care, and it adds even more depth to Margaery's character. Here she is, playing Sansa's best friend. "Oh, we'll be sisters when you wed my amazingly handsome brother!" But how thrilled would Sansa be in a marriage where her husband has zero sexual attraction towards her, and likely will be banging guardsmen on the side? Margaery doesn't give a shit. Having a Stark marry into her family sets them up very nice politically in the event there is a subsequent falling out between the Lannisters and Tyrells. And if the price is Sansa Stark being in a loveless marriage, well, that's no skin off Margaery's ass, is it?

She's not book Margery, but damn, she's a great character, very well-played.

[Harrad]

Choosing Loras for Sansa is a great idea for the TV story with or without the compression of characters from the book. Loras has a history with Sansa, at least in GoT. This is one more "education of Sansa" moments when she, for a moment, thinks that there will be a storybook ending for her, when she gets the "True Knight" she wanted and deserved.

[Blue Steel]

It doesn't make sense that Vary would want the Tyrells and the Starks to be allied considering his plans for Aegon. A strong Tyrell faction is at odds with Aegon becoming king unless Varys has some plan to get the Tyrells to dump Tommen and put Margaery with Aegon.

[Mr Hodor]

cant use wilas, he hasnt been introduced yet and wont be used after this.

[scurvy]

If Margaery had just said, "her brother" and not "Loras" then the viewer and Sansa could easily be made to believe it was Loras when it was really the cripple brother Willas all along. No need to cast him, he's not leaving Highgarden anyway. And, the Queen of Thorns could have said, "no, no you silly girl, Ser Loras is staying at Court with Margaery as her sworn shield, you will be at Highgarden, tucked away with my son's heir."

[MyLittleDirewolf]

The show changing Willas to Loras is fine IMHO. No need to mention an off-screen character we will likely never meet, it is established the Sansa has a crush on Loras, and it (maybe?) will make Sansa a bit more sympathetic when she has her dream squashed. That Loras is gay doesn't matter, he has to know he'll be roped into a marriage sooner or later. Perhaps after the Sansa marriage close-call, that's when he joins the KG on the show. Or Tywin talks him into it, to pull the same trick on the Tyrells that the Mad King did with Jaime.

We don't know that Renly had the same never-marry rule for his KG that the Iron Throne kings do/did. But in any case, the Tyrells were hitching their wagon to Renly, thinking he would be the King, and perhaps a son of Marg/Renly would become heir to Highgarden (in show-verse). Or like the QoT has stated, Mace Tyrell is an oaf, and he never thought it through.

[Kasrith]

Choosing Loras as Sansa's match really is stupid. I did not think I'd mind that all that much, but considering that both Varys and Olenna are supposed to be shrewd and clever in the show I don't see how they would ever consider a match between a straight girl and gay man a good move. Especially Lady Olenna would arrange her very own domestic tragedy this way! Sansa won't adore Loras anymore after she has found out about his sexual preferences. A much better idea would have been to make Sansa believe they were about to betroth her to Loras but were instead trying to secure her for Willas.

It doesn't matter if she adores him or not, they just need her to adore him now so that they can get her out of KL. After she's married and they have the North behind them who cares if she's in a happy marriage?

The one thing I didn't necessarily like about all that is the fact that Margaery is supposed to feel safe by Joff's side cause her bro is a KG, which I guess also doesn't matter in the show cause she's the puppeteer