Outlander (Tv show)

[Le Cygne]

I actually liked the way the episode was structured, I thought it was nicely done. If Game of Thrones wants some hints on how to present romantic and even just intimate moments, where there's honesty and things that matter being revealed to another, they could take a look at the way this show does it.

[Kobayashi Maru]

Satisfied sigh -- despite those who thought it was boring and nothing happened, though these nay-sayers do seem to be mostly male. Was it the female eros perspective they considered pointless in "The Wedding"? The contrast between the two weddings was brilliantly done -- in my opinion. Anyway, I can't worry about adultery and bigamy in terms of the show because Claire does that worrying for me, which is part of the interest I find in it. Nor do I feel personally any need to be for or against Frank or for or against Jamie. Claire's suffering from many perils and dislocations. That she's handling things so well shows how she could be loved beautifully in two different ways by two different men, and that she can love two husbands too, in different ways. My problem is that I don't understand why so many find this troublesome and judge Claire as a slut or something. Really, a person cannot live the same way in two different eras two centuries apart!

Ok this isn't me trying to start the fight I'm really just asking...

Ok who are those people. no one here said anything even remotely close to judging her. I haven't seen anything anywhere else online(and it's big place I know) or in any comments below the videos etc....I hear this people say this and that talk around forum but for the love of me I can't see any sign of it. who are those hatefull people and where are those comments?

I'm going to give this show another shot. I stopped about halfway through episode 2 when I had zero idea what Jaime was saying to claire, I'm usually okay without subtitles but I might consider putting them on.

I can understand his every second word...with others...even less...subtitles are my best friend when it comes to this show...

And I have to admit, I don't get why they have some ban against showing genitalia...the camera angle was always perfectly angled to keep from it. I mean, the entire episode is them having sex a bunch of times, what is the problem with showing the parts that are actually involved?

You cheeky :leer: you

Bottle episodes -- single location, sometimes just two or three characters -- are done all the time. "Fly" from Breaking Bad, for example -- just two guys cleaning a meth lab, becoming obsessed with a fly, revealing something about themselves and elaborating on how they interact with one another. In Treatment was basically two people sitting in a room for half an hour.

Interesting thought and I agree. One of my favorite episodes of tv is Homicide episode in which one character is trying to kill himself and his prtner in trying to talk him out of it...the whole episode is just two of them talking. Perfection.

Well the episode was ok but honestly it reminded me of fanficion and Twilight...whole episode dedicated to almost nothing more but wedding night and advertised as...the moment we've all been waiting for...to be honest the moment I'm waiting for is Claire getting to those stones again. I can't wait to see if they'd work again and if they do...what then? Who will she choose? How will she choose...and when she see's her husband again how much of Jack will she see in him? So far with all due respect for Jamie and his :leer: skills I would bet on her returning to her husband first chance she gets. So i guess next episode they either get separated or Jack get's her or something like that and we get the stones and decision in season finale.

And God is Dougal almost pathetic? :lol; he's soooo in wuw...What's his deal? I mean he had her. Why not marry her himself if he wanted her that bad? Why give her to another man? I still like his character the best :) even if he doesn't make any sense. I think he'll be my Cersei :lol:

[Le Cygne]

Haven't read the books, but I'd imagine what happens in this episode is central to whatever choices she makes, hence the emphasis.

[Veltigar]

Just a quick question: Was I the only one who hated Jaime's hairdo? I don't know why, but I really wanted to slap him, he just looked like your typical period douchebag.

The rest of the episode was okay. The AV-Club gave this an A, so perhaps I was expecting a bit to much. I liked the sex scenes, they were tastfully done imo. I didn't feel dirty after watching them (take a lesson GoT, not all male viewers are sleeze bags) which doesn't happen very often with these prestigious TV shows.

The structure was a little bit off though, a bit jarring. I frequently stopped the episode to get a drink or executing other fluid related activities, which usually doesn't happen when I'm watching a great episode. I did laugh at Jaime's story about Ned's quest for the wedding dress. That was hilarious.

[Ran]

The AV Club review was an utter joke. Maybe I expect too much, but they have generally had a high standard for their reviews, and this was just so far off the mark it wasn't funny. I'm not saying the episode should have gotten an F or something -- but if that's the level of analysis Upadhyaya has to offer, I don't think she should be reviewing for them.

I mean, she gave an A to episode that she describes thusly at the very end:

Yes, other stuff besides sex happens. But honestly, that other stuff feels like filler.

It's such a contentless review that's basically about how hot the wedding night was, so it's an awesome episode. No discussion of the structure, no argument for why the structure was great or not, nothing. Just a flood of hormones.

[sj4iy]

The AV Club review was an utter joke. Maybe I expect too much, but they have generally had a high standard for their reviews, and this was just so far off the mark it wasn't funny. I'm not saying the episode should have gotten an F or something -- but if that's the level of analysis Upadhyaya has to offer, I don't think she should be reviewing for them.

I mean, she gave an A to episode that she describes thusly at the very end:

It's such a contentless review that's basically about how hot the wedding night was, so it's an awesome episode. No discussion of the structure, no argument for why the structure was great or not, nothing. Just a flood of hormones.

I've given up reading "Outlander" episode reviews, because it seems that most of them are written by fans of the books that aren't even trying to be objective about the show. AV Club included, where they normally have some pretty even-handed reviews of things.

[Veltigar]

The AV Club review was an utter joke. Maybe I expect too much, but they have generally had a high standard for their reviews, and this was just so far off the mark it wasn't funny. I'm not saying the episode should have gotten an F or something -- but if that's the level of analysis Upadhyaya has to offer, I don't think she should be reviewing for them.

I mean, she gave an A to episode that she describes thusly at the very end:

It's such a contentless review that's basically about how hot the wedding night was, so it's an awesome episode. No discussion of the structure, no argument for why the structure was great or not, nothing. Just a flood of hormones.

Yeah, having read the review now that I have seen the episode, I wasn't impressed either. A shame really, I don't always agree with the writers from the AV-club, but with most shows they do a good job. I think I'm going to check the comment section on the review, because I'm curious what the readers over there think of the quality of the review.

EDIT: One thing I forgot to mention in my previous post, the pretentious voice-over is back again. I really could have done without, especially the second one.

EDIT: Nope, no interesting comments in the comment section. Really, really weird.

[Le Cygne]

These are great observations in the AV Club review:

When Daenerys watches Daario take off his clothes in season four of Games of Thrones, it feels significant. It’s an obvious departure from the show’s sex scenes, which cater to heterosexual males, employing everything from camera angles to character positions to reinforce control and pleasure. Daenerys’s brief moment as the voyeur in “Mockingbird” grants straight women with access to that same sense of control and arousal. But like I said, it’s fleeting. One tiny moment among a sea of GOT scenes in which women are objectified and exploited—not only by the male characters, but by the camera and direction, which marginalizes female viewers. Female viewers, much like queer viewers, often have to hunt a lot harder for erotic pleasure than straight male viewers do...

Outlander critiques that, allowing Claire to explore her own sexual fantasies. Later in the episode, she asks Jamie to undress. It reminisces of that Daenerys-Daario scene, but Outlander lets Claire linger even longer. She circles Jamie slowly, and the camera follows, adopting the perspective of the female viewer. It’s one of the most blatant manifestations of the female gaze I’ve seen on television in a while. Outlander sexually empowers Claire, and because of the way the series positions us to intimately experience everything Claire experiences, it also invites viewers into the irresistible erotica. Only with Outlander, it’s not just the straight dudes who get the invite.

http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/outlander-wedding-209476

Another:

... It's a far cry from the violent thrusting and distressed shouts of a Game of Thrones sex scene.

In further contrast from that HBO juggernaut, Outlander puts sexuality front and center, rather than utilizing a character's attitude toward sex as shorthand characterization in regards to morality. Neither does it cheapen the value of sex in storytelling by using it as a constant backing track, as Game of Thrones has coyly done to entertain the male gaze during scenes of protracted exposition. Outlander approaches sex in a way that's only shocking because it isn't shocking at all. It's non-violent, sensual, natural, and the woman is framed as more than an object for male pleasure. Female sexuality isn't demonized, and engaging in sex doesn't diminish Claire as a character. Outlander is the rare television drama that shows us a woman who is sexually experienced without being the villain of the piece, and a man who sees her desire and pleasure as a participatory experience, rather than an object to edify his own importance.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jenny-trout/outlander-and-the-female-_b_5859154.html

Another:

The sex that happens during tomorrow night’s episode isn’t so tremendously graphic that it rivals any of the senseless f--king on Game of Thrones. But it’s more intense and personal, and in that way daring, startling even.

http://www.vanityfair.com/vf-hollywood/2014/09/outlander-wedding-episode

This is good, too, from the article posted upthread:

"Ron and I watch so much TV where it's just another half-naked woman, just another pair of breasts, and it becomes furniture," Dresbach said. "The sensuality is lost. But this was romantic and sexy."

http://www.vulture.com/2014/09/outlander-wedding-jamie-claire-ronald-moore.html

[MoIaF]

These are great observations in the AV Club review:

http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/outlander-wedding-209476

Another:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jenny-trout/outlander-and-the-female-_b_5859154.html

Another:

http://www.vanityfair.com/vf-hollywood/2014/09/outlander-wedding-episode

This is good, too, from the article posted upthread:

http://www.vulture.com/2014/09/outlander-wedding-jamie-claire-ronald-moore.html

Thank you for sharing these.

I would agree that the sex scene wasn't male-centric like so many of the scenes of GoT. I think it helped that in this instance Claire is the experienced one (also I think she's suppose to be older, at least in the books). She's not intimidated by what's about to happen and therefore has more control of herself and the situation.

~~~~~~~

On a completely different note, I was a little annoyed when Jaime said to Claire "get back in the room sassenach". I know the term means Englishman but it's also derogatory. He shouldn't call her that now that she is his family and hopefully won't allow others to call her that either.

[Adam with one D]

Pretty much what I expected... Except that the whole "will he or won't he" thing with whether or not Dougal is going to rape Claire is somehow creepy and hilariously bad at the same time.

Edit- I agree with a lot of people's opinions of the fact that the sex scenes in this show (and 'Power ' which recently aired its first season on Starz and was really good btw) are being used well to help drive the plot.

[Le Cygne]

On a completely different note, I was a little annoyed when Jaime said to Claire "get back in the room sassenach".

Maybe it's a pet name when it comes to her, something about her that he secretly likes.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Has Jamie not said before he doesn't mean it as an insult with her? ;)

[MoIaF]

Maybe it's a pet name when it comes to her, something about her that he secretly likes.

Has Jamie not said before he doesn't mean it as an insult with her? ;)

Maybe, but still...

I just saw the preview for next week, it looks good. Although, I have to ask, what with the mid-season split for a premium channel?

I don't usually watch Starz but HBO and Showtime don't break up their shows like this (that I remember). We usually have a week break for a holiday or such but not like this.

[Myrddin]

Just a quick question: Was I the only one who hated Jaime's hairdo? I don't know why, but I really wanted to slap him, he just looked like your typical period douchebag.

My wife and I discussed the same thing. We decided that this was the first time he actually brushed his hair. The rest of the time, it's a shaggy mop, which adds to his charm. Putting a brush through those curls makes them all fluffy, like an 80's hairdo. :)

[Ghost's Shadow]

That's what I think as well: he actually brushed it.

We should be happy that it got rectified after the bed scenes, lol.

[Zorral]

The person who asked who thinks Claire is a slut, etc. for having two husbands and SEX with them both, are commentators responding to a variety of reviews and recaps and blogs about Outlander. It didn't begin with the wedding episode.

To me, it seems as if, again, again even with other women, a woman can't win: one group of female viewers want to see a woman having hot sex and want only the ship and sex, and when the sex happens another group of women condemn the woman for having it.

Honestly, the only remotely tender sex scene I've seen from television or films in years besides this, was in Rome, of all shows, that one scene between Servilia and Caesar, as they take a long, lingering, sensual time of touching and coming closer to each other other -- and kissing, becoming slowly more aroused. On screen and even in fiction, at least genre fiction, sex scenes are always ripping off the clothes and throwing each other against a wall, a door, across a desk etc., and that's that. Ugh.

The pilot's scene with Frank and Claire in the ruined castle, also, while sexy, was also tender and loving -- and didn't involve the ripping. It's that damned ripping, always with the ripping that keeps announcing that the writers are actually afraid of showing real sex, with real people, who are really connecting with each other, on many levels while engaged in this most intimate of physical joinings.

Foregrounded closeups of genitals are not it. However, it that's all that rocks a particular viewer's world there are billion places that can be had.

As for women being addressed in a giving orders sort of tone -- in this era, parents also address their children that way. It's going to continue.

As far as the Dougal business again -- I dunno, but it seems to me -- from the book, which was not sufficiently edited -- it's a plot strand artifact that neither author nor editors quite managed to deal with, i.e. clear up, tie up, whatever.

But again, maybe it's part of Claire's condition in this time, which is both a defense for her, and a danger: she is very attractive to a variety of men, including those who don't necessarily approve of her. It's not as though they know how to naturally handle such alien emotions, perhaps. But I'm not about to swear to that, because I don't know!

[Le Cygne]

My wife and I discussed the same thing. We decided that this was the first time he actually brushed his hair. The rest of the time, it's a shaggy mop, which adds to his charm. Putting a brush through those curls makes them all fluffy, like an 80's hairdo. :)

I thought it was a nice visual touch, to show he wanted to look nice. Then the bed scenes, they both let down their hair, so to speak.

[Alia of the knife]

Satisfied sigh -- despite those who thought it was boring and nothing happened, though these nay-sayers do seem to be mostly male. Was it the female eros perspective they considered pointless in "The Wedding"? The contrast between the two weddings was brilliantly done -- in my opinion. Anyway, I can't worry about adultery and bigamy in terms of the show because Claire does that worrying for me, which is part of the interest I find in it. Nor do I feel personally any need to be for or against Frank or for or against Jamie. Claire's suffering from many perils and dislocations. That she's handling things so well shows how she could be loved beautifully in two different ways by two different men, and that she can love two husbands too, in different ways. My problem is that I don't understand why so many find this troublesome and judge Claire as a slut or something. Really, a person cannot live the same way in two different eras two centuries apart!

Though I would not have wanted to wear that dress, not really, though it was gorgeous, and Claire was beautiful in it. It was much more pristine, though, than the one the book version found for Claire, iirc.

Perhaps my personally favorite part of the Outlander tale, Claire and Jamie, on the Fraser homeland and with Fraser family will be provided before the hiatus? If so, those who complain about Jamie being too perfect, should find some surcease. :)

I would say a lot of these writers don't understand the difference between sex, (as in a physical release), and actual intimacy.

I've known both men and women who slept around with lots of people, but were close to no one.

Clothes-ripping has its place, but so does connection.

[Mother of Mini Dragons]

I actually liked the way the episode was structured, I thought it was nicely done. If Game of Thrones wants some hints on how to present romantic and even just intimate moments, where there's honesty and things that matter being revealed to another, they could take a look at the way this show does it.

:agree:

I so absolutely love having a television show where the sexuality is written, filmed and shown from a very feminine perspective. It is refreshing in so many ways. It was very nice.

I loved this episode and didn't mind the flashbacks once I got into it and understood how they were structuring it. I understand all of the comments about perfect Jaime, but this is still early in the story and we should see more of who he is and that's he's actually a human and not perfect in time.

I'm still having so many feels for Dougal even though I know I shouldn't.

[Mother of Mini Dragons]

~~~~~~~

On a completely different note, I was a little annoyed when Jaime said to Claire "get back in the room sassenach". I know the term means Englishman but it's also derogatory. He shouldn't call her that now that she is his family and hopefully won't allow others to call her that either.

You'll have to get used to this. It becomes her pet name from him and she's not offended by it. Sort of like when my friends and I call each other heffas.