Doctor Who: Regenerated discussion

[Darth Visenya]

This is precisely why it's a good choice. Breaks from the trendy young things that we've had but he's still a dapper chap so hopefully not too many of the new fanbase will be frightened off.

I don't think it's a bad choice at all, he's a good actor and I think it will be a marked change, just I can see him being older putting off a few of the younger viewers, I hope to be proved wrong though.

[Werthead]

I've asked this one before, but canonically is there anything concerning the 12 avatars of the Doctor aside from in Trial of A Time Lord? It would be interesting to recap how much they'd have to circumvent.

Yes. The Deadly Assassin establishes that Time Lords can only regenerate 12 times (for 13 lives; being born doesn't count as a regeneration, and it appears that Time Lords don't get their regenerations until they graduate from the Time Lord Academy). This is then repeated a lot in a ton of stories, including almost every appearance of the Master between then and the end of the series. Trial of a Time Lord and The Five Doctors makes a big deal of this as well, and it's mentioned in the TV movie.

Russell T. Davies says he's not sure why this bit of lore stuck when others (like the fact that the Second Doctor once said, "We can live forever, barring accidents,") were disregarded, but this was a disingenuous statement. It was because this particular bit of lore drove a significant numbers of storylines over many years of the original series.

I am still unclear where John Hurt's Doctor fits in - is he an older Elight Doctor, or an incarnation before that of William Hartnell? I have seen both suggested on the internet.

He's an incarnation between the Eighth and Ninth. He might be a semi-incarnation like the Valeyard (whose existence has apparently now been prevented) and the Watcher (who was essentially the 4.5th Doctor), but I get the impression he's a full incarnation. However, he was not 'the Doctor' because he did something so heinous it went against everything the Doctor stood for (probably blowing up the Time Lords and the Daleks with the Moment during the Time War).

Technically he should be the new Ninth Doctor, but Moffat realised that would confuse the hell out of everyone and require an extensive rewriting of Wikipedia and the various Who wikis, so seems to have come up with this "ninth incarnation of the same being but technically not the 'ninth Doctor'" thing to circumvent it.

[red snow]

To me Eccleston was (as far as I have seen) too human when being menacing. Smith, and what I have seen of Tennant, did get closer to a really scary inhumanity. But that is probably a personal preference, and it will be interesting to see what Capaldi will bring. What I have seen of him he can do the human anger, but since he did Islington as well the inhuman and alien parts should fit him as well. Perhaps a more perfect merger, and as always a new interpretation.

I guess it's down to a difference in taste.Then again I thought a lot of the earlier doctors could do intimidating while being zany Baker being a prime example - although his voice and eyes helped a lot with that.

I don't think it's a bad choice at all, he's a good actor and I think it will be a marked change, just I can see him being older putting off a few of the younger viewers, I hope to be proved wrong though.

While my initial reaction was "cool we'll get a Malcolm Tucker Who" I'm now thinking that would be a massive mistake - especially for Peter Capaldi. He needs to make this role iconic too but in a way that doesn't have everyone thinking he's phoning it in as Malcolm tucker. I'm confident he can from the other roles i've seen him in. The main hazard is that the writers don't write him as Malcolm as then it's an uphill struggle for Capaldi.

As for what will happen. I think an arc about him handling the fact it's his last life will be interesting. I think to have him desperately seeking another life would make him an egotist of the highest degree. Why should he live forever? I'd like to see them introduce a reason why he has to live for longer eg to prevent something terrible happening. Then it'd be nice to have some kind of regeneration quest.

I just hope his regenerations are earned and aren't just a last minute deus ex machina as often happens in this incarnation of Who.

[Derfel Cadarn]

For all we know the regenerations have already been sorted - either during the time war, or by River transferring some. We know more xan be conferred - Borussa offered to gove the Master a new set. The Master wasnt even in a Time Lord's body. River got some, apparently a result of being conceived in the Tardis.

RTD seemed to assume the Doctor was in no danger of running it, with the Doctor claiming in Sarah Jane Adventures to have 507. Moffat seems to be leaning back towards the limit.

He'll need a new catchphrase, like Brilliant, Alons-y and geronimo, which were all crap. Since it's Malcolm Tucker, i vote for "Fuckity-bye!"

[Black Wolf Smith]

I am still unclear where John Hurt's Doctor fits in - is he an older Elight Doctor, or an incarnation before that of William Hartnell? I have seen both suggested on the internet.

Speaking only for myself, I don't want to know, until I get to watch the Special. Learning everything that is going to happen, before seeing it ruins the whole poiint of watching it.

[Alex.]

Now that's a different conversation

[The Killer Snark]

Werthead - The Deadly Assassin. I should have remembered that. I own it.

Re: Tucker's, sorry, Capaldi's age, this can only be a good thing, right? This brings nu-Who more into line with the feel of the classic series, as well as being more consistent with canon, if one looks at the physical age jumps between all the Doctors there.

[MisterOJ]

I just hope his regenerations are earned and aren't just a last minute deus ex machina as often happens in this incarnation of Who.

So do you think there was no "last minute deus ex machina" aspects of classic Who?

[red snow]

So do you think there was no "last minute deus ex machina" aspects of classic Who?

It doesn't really matter, the concern is with the people making the show now. Classic Who could be better or worse it would have no bearing on the next season of Who. The current team have a bad track record so there's good reason to be concerned. I'd be annoyed at the "out of nowhere" aspects of the old shows if I were to watch them now.

My knowledge of old who is mainly from the books which is probably why I hold the old episodes in high regard. My imagination did a far better job of SFX than even the current show can manage. I was 8 when the first run ended so have only hazy (usually in the form of terrified) memories of doctors 5-7. I caught repeats on sky in random order but spent 6 years reading whichever adaptations I could get my hands on. Terrance Dicks was usually the best author and the Troughton/Pertwee my favourites in book format.

[MisterOJ]

It doesn't really matter, the concern is with the people making the show now. Classic Who could be better or worse it would have no bearing on the next season of Who. The current team have a bad track record so there's good reason to be concerned. I'd be annoyed at the "out of nowhere" aspects of the old shows if I were to watch them now.

My knowledge of old who is mainly from the books which is probably why I hold the old episodes in high regard. My imagination did a far better job of SFX than even the current show can manage. I was 8 when the first run ended so have only hazy (usually in the form of terrified) memories of doctors 5-7. I caught repeats on sky in random order but spent 6 years reading whichever adaptations I could get my hands on. Terrance Dicks was usually the best author and the Troughton/Pertwee my favourites in book format.

And that's fine, but "last minute deus ex machina" stuff has pretty much always been a part of Doctor Who. It's part and parcel with the program. I don't think it's really fair to complain about something that has been a part of the show for decades.

[The Killer Snark]

Well, I do agree with that much. Look at the quick-fix wonder dog K9. One of the worst is actually from (the very slightly overrated) Pyramids of Mars, which is one of the best respected stories of the Tom Baker period. The Doctor winds up defeating the villain on the basis of answering a riddle which is a basic conundrum posed when studying logic. "You can only ask the guardians one question, one will always lie and one will always tell the truth." You ask what the other guardian would say, and go the opposite direction from the same answer come up with by both.

[red snow]

And that's fine, but "last minute deus ex machina" stuff has pretty much always been a part of Doctor Who. It's part and parcel with the program. I don't think it's really fair to complain about something that has been a part of the show for decades.

I honestly think the show would be better changing this "tradition". It's not that it ruins the show for me but it is a frustrating aspect of it. They haven't kept the shitty production values so why keep the lazy storytelling. Then again it could be that I'm in the minority and people actually enjoy lazy solutions to problems. I prefer a show where I have to try and figure out how the protagonist succeeds but in "who" it's a case of "sonic screwdriver" or "random shit". Luckily the sense of fun and the Doctor's performance usually keeps me going.

I'm sure there are some who wish Nolan's Batman got out of all his scrapes by pulling shark repellant out of his utility belt so he could be more like Adam West Batman.

The Doctor getting extra lives because the universe loves him would be in keeping with the show but I'll be disappointed if they do that.

[mormont]

On the additional regenerations: I'm not sure that I even see this as a big problem. All the canonical information suggests that the twelve regeneration limit is not inherent but imposed by the Time Lords. The Doctor was never one for accepting the limitations of the Time Lords, and they're presently not in a position to impose anything on him anyway. A single line of dialogue would solve this 'problem' once and for all, or at least until the showrunner thought there was a good storyline in bringing it back.

[Werthead]

We know more xan be conferred - Borussa offered to gove the Master a new set. The Master wasnt even in a Time Lord's body

The general assumption is that more could be conferred because the Master was in a non-Time Lord body. If a Time Lord can just have new regenerations implanted when the old ones run out, Borusa's entire plan to steal Rassilon's method for immortality in The Five Doctors makes no sense at all (okay, less sense than the little it did already).

On the additional regenerations: I'm not sure that I even see this as a big problem. All the canonical information suggests that the twelve regeneration limit is not inherent but imposed by the Time Lords. The Doctor was never one for accepting the limitations of the Time Lords, and they're presently not in a position to impose anything on him anyway. A single line of dialogue would solve this 'problem' once and for all, or at least until the showrunner thought there was a good storyline in bringing it back.

I think it's very clear that it was an inherent problem, but it was also an inherent problem that Rassilon solved. So given they brought him back and given that regeneration is still part of his immortality (as he regenerated from that avuncular-looking bloke in The Five Doctors into James Bond at some point), it's possible he passed that info onto the other Time Lords. That's a relatively simple way around it and they could even mention it in the November special with regards to the Hurt Doctor, as apparently:

The November special features flashbacks to the Time War.

[red snow]

So basically Rassilon rewrote all the timelord's hardwiring? That could work.

I'm also cool with the idea that by the Doctor being the last of the timelords he somehow got everyone elses. As long as the Doctor already knows this and he can go about things business as usual.

Wert's spoiler on the special suggests it will indeed be special :)

[Darth Visenya]

While my initial reaction was "cool we'll get a Malcolm Tucker Who" I'm now thinking that would be a massive mistake - especially for Peter Capaldi.

From what I've seen of The Thick of It, I'm sorry but Malcolm Tucker struck me as a bit of a poor mans Ari Gold.

[Werthead]

Steven Moffat confirms that the 12-regeneration limit is in the current show.

Interesting.

[Arataniello]

Steven Moffat confirms that the 12-regeneration limit is in the current show.

He will wangle his way out of it in some fashion - a new set of regenerations as a gift from the Time Lords; some mumbo jumbo to do with River Song; some other plot device to give the Doctor new regenerations (like the Master and Tremas).

[john]

Up to now they've, quite rightly, kept it open by the simple method of not mentioning it at all (give or take the odd mischevious Sarah Jane Adventures line), so as not to pre-empt whatever a future writer might want to do. Even Moffat probably wouldn't have thought he'd have to deal with it when he started his run.

It says in the link that Moffat stated in the same discussion that he considers the Time Lords definitely dead, so It doesn't seem like the fix is going to come from them, if it's up to him, unless it's a reference to a past event. But it would have been crazy not to tackle the issue since it's a free cool storyline and keeps the old guard happy.

[Lady Octarina]

What do you think are the chances of a complete reboot of Doctor Who, or a major retcon bringing Gallifrey and such back?