[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa II

[David Selig]

Isn't that a bit harsh? I mean, if you've got complex characters, it is inevitable that people are going to have different moral views of those characters, and some folks, fully informed of book Tyrion's acts, my still think him to be a very good guy, while others, equally informed, may feel differently.

I've been posting on this series since the board before this one, the board before that one, and the board before that. So it isn't like I'm unfamiliar with the books or online discussions of characters going back more than 15 years.

I personally believe that people should be judged in the context of the times in which they live. Tyrion would be a much shittier guy in the 21st century, but he's not in the 21st century. I look at his acts of kindness towards people who meant nothing to him (the best way to judge character) and I see him helping Bran and Jon, while knowing that their family hates him. I seem him being kind to and standing up for Sansa before he had any motive to do so, simply because he thought it was wrong. And that's after being raised in an immediate family of borderline sociopaths who, except for Jaime, have hated and tormented him since birth. Given that, I think he's come out more than okay.

The worst stain on him is Tysha. But as horrible as it was, I think Tywin was the real villain there. Tyrion was a young boy who'd been abused by that fucker his whole life, and then was placed into this situation that must have been a nightmare for him. And I've always read his character as having been ashamed of his eventual participation in that rape. In the context of Westerosi morals, and the times in which he lived, I don't view his actions as the 21st century moral equivalent of some 13 year old boy raping a girl. Still horrible, but his age, father, etc.., don't make it a think that makes me judge him adversely more than a decade later.

So to me, Tyrion hasn't been whitewashed because I thought he was a damn good guy to begin with. His flaws/sins, to me, were minimal given normal Westerosi morals and his horrible, abusive upbringing. He's a whoremonger, drinker, and willing to live on his family's wealth, so he's not a Ned Stark paragon of virtue with on the show or in the books.

Tyrion is a kinslayer, and the worst kind of kinslayer too - he murdered his father. By Westerosi standards this makes him absolutely the lowest of the low, the worst kind of scum.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

My hubby, the non-book reader, felt horrible for Sansa the whole episode even though she was marrying Tyrion. I think that a viewer can understand how awful this is for Sansa....

Yes, exactly this. Unless your purpose in watching the show is to see a scene by scene recreation, or at least, a perfect recreation of certain scenes that have particular relevance for individual viewers, Sansa's wedding left viewers, IMHO, in the rigfht frame of mind. This was a miserable experience for Sansa, and though not as bad for Tyrion, still not something he enjoyed either. It's clear she doesn't want to be married to him, and it's clear he's attempting to be as honorable about it as he can unde rthe circumstances. That's right about how it should look.

[mrunderhill]

Yes, exactly this. Unless your purpose in watching the show is to see a scene by scene recreation, or at least, a perfect recreation of certain scenes that have particular relevance for individual viewers, Sansa's wedding left viewers, IMHO, in the rigfht frame of mind. This was a miserable experience for Sansa, and though not as bad for Tyrion, still not something he enjoyed either. It's clear she doesn't want to be married to him, and it's clear he's attempting to be as honorable about it as he can unde rthe circumstances. That's right about how it should look.

Except in the books it is not like that. It is a miserable, forced marriage for Sansa, but for Tyrion is not that bad. He does not seem cut up about it at all.

[Sansa in the North]

Yes, exactly this. Unless your purpose in watching the show is to see a scene by scene recreation, or at least, a perfect recreation of certain scenes that have particular relevance for individual viewers, Sansa's wedding left viewers, IMHO, in the rigfht frame of mind. This was a miserable experience for Sansa, and though not as bad for Tyrion, still not something he enjoyed either. It's clear she doesn't want to be married to him, and it's clear he's attempting to be as honorable about it as he can unde rthe circumstances. That's right about how it should look.

That didn't happen in the books. He very nearly raped her. And he was convinced to marry her in the first place by being offered Winterfell and threatened with Lollys. He gets a queer chill at the thought of being Lord Protector of Winterfell and he thinks how it would benice to have his own castle away from the capital, not even acknowledging that this would mean the death of his future wife's brother at his family's hands. Then he acts all jilted because Sansa doesn't want him for his looks ("that's why gods made whores for imps") when he himself doesn't want Lollys because of her looks. That's not what I'd consider honourable behaviour.

[Isildur's Mane]

I'm sorry, I haven't had the chance to read all of this thread yet, (it is getting a bit late here) but this was on my mind.

While, overall, I liked the wedding, I didn't like how Sansa not kneeling was removed. I have tried to understand it, and I'm not as against it as I thought I'd be, but it feels like the easy way out.

It is almost like the writers don't have faith in the actors perfomance or the audiences intelligence. I know it would be hard to pull off - because in the books we get Sansa's internal reasonings and that wouldn't translate well on screen - but they could of thought of another way to do it or put some trust in the actors to perform it, I would think that both Sophia and Peter are capable of pulling it off.

But in losing this moment, we lose the depth of the scene and some much neede character development of Sansa, which also has an effect (affect? I always get confused) on Tyrion as the story progresses. Both characters will suffer and have been suffering because of the lack of depth and subtlety of the TV series.

That's just my 2 cents. I'm sorry if this isn't very clear, but it is getting late and I am tired and should be in bed. Goodnight all (or good morning wherever you are)

[Tywin's bastard]

Nonsese, if they didnt white wash Tyrion, make his just another Lannister, they could have focused on Sansa's face, tears streaming down her cheeks while Tyrion tugs at her dress. While having to go get a stool to put the cloak on.

and where were the invocation of the 7?

What you say doesn't convey strength in Sansa at all. It would look like Sansa is just too sad and scared to have presence of mind enough to do anything, or they could have made her look like a petty bitch. Without the internal monologue you don't get the nuance of it, especially since she's been petty before and never stood up to anyone.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Tyrion is a kinslayer, and the worst kind of kinslayer too - he murdered his father. By Westerosi standards this makes him absolutely the lowest of the low, the worst kind of scum.

Oh, brilliant reposte there. You're choosing to take the arguing literally, without context, to imply that I am advocating condemnation of people who raise above the morality of their time as well?

Let me make the point clear, then, to hopefully forestall more jackalling. I think that when people commit an act that we judge to be a sin, or wrongful, the prevailing morality and culture of their time should be taken as a mitigating factor in judging how much they should be condemned. So, I do not think that George Washington was a horrible man just because he kept slaves, given that he was raised in a culture in which slavery was accepted. Certainly, I would not judge him the same as a Presidental candidate running for office in 2012 who advocated a return to slavery.

On the other hand, though the prevailing view of the time was that whites were superior to blacks, and that treating blacks as equal to whites was wrong, I do not think those enlightened souls who did so should be condemned.

Capice?

[PatrickStormborn]

If you think Sansa would look "bitchy" for refusing to kneel for a man who forced her to marry him, then there's a huge problem with you for identifying with an abuser over the victim. It's fine to feel sympathy for Tyrion during his wedding (believe it or not, even I feel sorry for Tyrion!), but Sansa is the true victim who has been put into a position no child should ever have to be in.

[Sansa in the North]

Oh, brilliant reposte there. You're choosing to take the arguing literally, without context, to imply that I am advocating condemnation of people who raise above the morality of their time as well?

Let me make the point clear, then, to hopefully forestall more jackalling. I think that when people commit an act that we judge to be a sin, or wrongful, the prevailing morality and culture of their time should be taken as a mitigating factor in judging how much they should be condemned. So, I do not think that George Washington was a horrible man just because he kept slaves, given that he was raised in a culture in which slavery was accepted. Certainly, I would not judge him the same as a Presidental candidate running for office in 2012 who advocated a return to slavery.

On the other hand, though the prevailing view of the time was that whites were superior to blacks, and that treating blacks as equal to whites was wrong, I do not think those enlightened souls who did so should be condemned.

Capice?

Wait... you said that people should be judged in the context of the times in which they live. David Selig then pointed out that in the context of that time Tyrion is guilty of the greatest sin, murdering his own father. And you say... that by killing Tywin Tyrion rose above the morality of his time? Or what? That doesn't make any kind of sense at all.

[nirolo]

If you think Sansa would look "bitchy" for refusing to kneel for a man who forced her to marry him, then there's a huge problem with you for identifying with an abuser over the victim. It's fine to feel sympathy for Tyrion during his wedding (believe it or not, even I feel sorry for Tyrion!), but Sansa is the true victim who has been put into a position no child should ever have to be in.

I think you are confusing TV Tyrion with book Tyrion.

[mrunderhill]

If you think Sansa would look "bitchy" for refusing to kneel for a man who forced her to marry him, then there's a huge problem with you for identifying with an abuser over the victim. It's fine to feel sympathy for Tyrion during his wedding (believe it or not, even I feel sorry for Tyrion!), but Sansa is the true victim who has been put into a position no child should ever have to be in.

Again in the show Tyrion has been forced into the marriage too. He does not want to marry Sansa, but is being forced to by Tywin. In the show all four of them: Sansa, Tyrion, Cersei and Loras are victims. They have all been forced by Tywin to marry people they don't want to. Sansa may have it the worst, but all four are suffering.

[Mladen]

Yes, because the scene as written would not have had the same meaning if recreated on the screen. That entire wedding scene is told in the books with Sansa's internal thoughts. But viewers don't see italicized internal thoughts -- they only see actions, so recreating the exact actions of the scenes without the internal thoughts is going to result in a portrayal with a different meaning.

One action we get in the book is Sansa's acknowledging that Tryion was not Joffrey, and saying "you were kind to me" to Tyrion before the ceremony. So let's assume the book is followed, and that gets said. Wedding begins with Sansa acknowledging that Tyrion has been kind to her.

But, that is the problem. Entire season we were seeing this train going straight to collision, and we knew that every wrong choice they made is going to be paid. If Tyrion didn`t walk to Sansa and talked to her, Sansa`s reaction would be much different, and then you wouldn`t be surprised she didnt kneel. And the problem with that idea is that Tyrion would look bad or at least he would be more bookish. This entire episode wasn`t mistake by itself, mistakes made in it are consequences of poorly written season. The moment in which she refuses to kneel was between the two of them. Her resistence and insensitivity and his shame and anger. But, on TV we got Joffrey involved before it started, and it was all about Tyrion and Joffrey. Sansa was just a neutral participant there, and that`s not by far what we had in books.

Then the kneeling scene. And here, I think book Sansa fans are guilty of some revisionism by misinterpreting her refusal to kneel as some big statement of principle. But it's not. Sansa's emotions at that point are neither admirable nor positive. Sansa's not thinking of any big issue when she refuses to kneel. She hears everyone laughing at Tyrion, and then thinks in the text "why should I spare his feelings, when no one cares about mine? That's not a protest in principle against mistreatment -- it's kicking the dog because you had a bad day at work. "Stubbornly she pressed her lips together and pretended not to notice." Think of how that would look on screen. It's spoiled and self-centered, particularly because you just acknowledged to the audience that he was kind to you. Now, you're acting immaturely and deliberately embarassing the one person who has actually been kind to you (when he had nothing to gain by it) in front of the entire court: "They were all laughing by then, Joffrey the loudest." That's not right, and it does not say something positive about her character.

Sansa refused to kneel before the first laugh, but when the laugh became too loud and jokes were made, she reconsidered her decision and knelt. In one scene, we have demonstration of her defiance and her compassion. That`s why this scene is important. Also, the ruin of the marriage began with it. For Tyrion never forgave her for not kneeling it.

As for show, I said it already, out of frying pan into the fire. You have every point when you say that not kneeling would be interpreted differently, but the problem here is that it was created atmosphere where her refusal to kneel would be interpreted as something else. And the only ones who are 100% guilty about it are writers. This episode is just result of everything we have seen entire season.

The mediums are different, and sometimes, you have to change things up to get to the same place. To me, the only growth Sansa actually showed as a person here was when she was ashamed of her actions, and actually managed to do the mature thing and separate her anger at her situation from the person who had done her no harm. And hell, even if people disagree that Tyrion was kind, the text says that Sansathought he was, and that Sansa was ashamed of herself for not kneeling.

Not kneeling was progress in one direction, kneeling in another. And these two parallel growing-ups didn`t exclude each other in the books. The medium is different and I agree we can`t see everything, but we can see something. With good actors you can do wonders. And these two could make perfect wedding if only writers have deeper vision about it. But, entire thing was subdued to Tyrion and his feelings. First the long monologue, then the stool, then the drinking and arguing with Joffrey and lastly another dialogue which was about him. Sansa was here saying a word or two, completely being cut off in some way from what`s happening to her.

But, I have to agree, when you cross the Rubicon, it`s too late. And Rubicon here was crossed in episode 6, when Tyrion told Sansa about the wedding. So, every scene from both of them from that moment is directly influenced and tarnished with it. So, was this episode bad because of itself? No. There were some great detail involving Sansa too, but the greatest problem is that mistake was made long before and just like in chain reaction, one thing influences the next one.

As someone who appreciates good and polite discussion, I have to thank you for giving me one. We have difference of opinions, and I doubt each one of us will soon change his POV, but that is not reason for insulting. Again, thank you for that.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

That didn't happen in the books. He very nearly raped her.

Again, show versus book, versus RL. In the RL, a 25+ year old man whose family fills a girl's family, takes her to their house, has her married without her consent, and then has sex with her, is going to jail for a very long time. His conduct is horribly, horribly out of bounds for what our society deems acceptable. That's rape, and a crime. That is not a crime in Westeros, and it's not rape in Westeros, whatever 21st century sensibilities you'd wish to impose there.

What Tyrion did in the books was legal, and though the circumstances are on the dicey side legally, that's only because of a disputed succession. Very few Westerosi would have considered it rape. In fact, the consensus would have been that Tyrion had the legal right to do it. Even Sansa, a shitty as those circumstances were, knew that the bedding would be in accordance with Westerosi custom.

As for the show v. books, you can't have a 14year old girl disrobe and get fondled, even on HBO, without everyone permanently hating the character who does that, which I very stronlgy doubt would have been consistent with how GRRM views Tyrion. The few moments of indecision/desire before Tyrion told this 14 year old to stop disrobing still conveys the idea that he wanted to at some level, but thought it was wrong.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

If you think Sansa would look "bitchy" for refusing to kneel for a man who forced her to marry him, then there's a huge problem with you for identifying with an abuser over the victim.

Then go argue with Sansa herself, who was ashamed in the books for not kneeling.

Perhaps there's a huge problem with you being unable to separate a work of fiction from the modern world.

[Mladen]

Then go argue with Sansa herself, who was ashamed in the books for not kneeling.

She was ashamed after everyone started making jokes about Tyrion. And she knew what he was going through and knelt. That was pure Sansa in all her glory, her greatest virtue has always been her compassion.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Sansa refused to kneel before the first laugh, but when the laugh became too loud and jokes were made, she reconsidered her decision and knelt. In one scene, we have demonstration of her defiance and her compassion.

What about her shame at not kneeling for him? Because that's the only actual emotion stated to us in that scene. Presumably, people are only going to be ashamed of actions they regret. And without that internal monologue that is necessarily missing from the TV scene, the audience won't know that she feels ashamed for not kneeling.

Nor do I see "defiance", frankly. To me, defiance would have been an internal monologue of "I am not going to kneel in front of this family that killed my father and forced me into this." Instead, we get the far more self-centered and immature "why should I care about his feelings if no one cares about mine." And again, her shame over those thoughts is what redeems her, yet it's precisely what the audience would miss if it was shown that way on TV.

As someone who appreciates good and polite discussion, I have to thank you for giving me one. We have difference of opinions, and I doubt each one of us will soon change his POV, but that is not reason for insulting. Again, thank you for that.

Well, you're welcome, although I don't think all discussions need necessarily be academically devoid of passion.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

And you say... that by killing Tywin Tyrion rose above the morality of his time? Or what? That doesn't make any kind of sense at all.

It does if you believe that Tywin deserved death, regardless of his familial connection to Tyrion.

[Sansa in the North]

It does if you believe that Tywin deserved death, regardless of his familial connection to Tyrion.

Commiting murder is never a morally right decision, regardless of whether the victim "deserves it" in your opinion. Murder is wrong. Period. And killing his father certainly doesn't make Tyrion rise above the morality of his time. I'd say he fits right in, but as stated above, kinslaying is actually the worst kind of sin in Westeros... so Tyrion is the worst sinner... unless you are willing to apply 21st century standards here. But then you must do the same when judging his conduct towards Sansa.

[Mladen]

What about her shame at not kneeling for him? Because that's the only actual emotion stated to us in that scene. Presumably, people are only going to be ashamed of actions they regret. And without that internal monologue that is necessarily missing from the TV scene, the audience won't know that she feels ashamed for not kneeling.

Nor do I see "defiance", frankly. To me, defiance would have been an internal monologue of "I am not going to kneel in front of this family that killed my father and forced me into this." Instead, we get the far more self-centered and immature "why should I care about his feelings if no one cares about mine." And again, her shame over those thoughts is what redeems her, yet it's precisely what the audience would miss if it was shown that way on TV.

And where was his compassion towards her? Did he give her choice Why is she the immature one when she stated the truth? Tyrion couldn`t care less about her feelings, and we all know it. Sansa wasn`t just immature here, she was also paying him back for deceiving her. That line about her feelings is self-centered and she should think about herself, for no one else does. Don`t you remember what Tyrion could have gained with this marriage. remember when Tywin says that Sansa is the prize he couldn`t ever hoped for. This was Tyrion`s `dream wedding`(in terms of politics, ambition and self-centered opinion). Perhaps audience would hate her for not kneeling, but now we are spinning in circles - the writers would be the only one guilty for that. Also, do you honestly believe she needed redemption in any moment of her wedding?

Well, you're welcome, although I don't think all discussions need necessarily be academically devoid of passion.

As I can see, the both of us are rather passionate in defending our POV :)

[Quiet Sister]

What happened to the Sansa who told Joffrey that maybe her brother would bring her his head or the Sansa who wanted to push Joffrey off the ledge?

My sentiment exactly.