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Ran

How would you rate episode 309?

How would you rate episode 308?  

1,330 members have voted

  1. 1. What's your rating from 1-10, with 10 being the highest/best

    • 1
      11
    • 2
      3
    • 3
      4
    • 4
      9
    • 5
      10
    • 6
      15
    • 7
      27
    • 8
      144
    • 9
      300
    • 10
      805


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Copied from the nitpick thread:

  • The writing was once again very weak in places.
  • The Arya/Hound scenes continue to be very disappointing.
  • Dany's scenes were literally just about Daario, Barristan and Jorah, and the rivalries between them... Hers is one of the few stories with a central female protagonist, so it's extremely disappointing that she was essentially reduced to a background character this episode.
  • Similarly, Jorah's dialogue to Barristan (repeating what Barristan had said in episode 5) felt a little too... obvious. D&D really need to learn subtlety.
  • The worst part: Barristan silently getting drunk. WTF??? They could have used that time to talk about Rhaegar, but no - they replaced it with Barristan getting drunk whilst protecting his "bright shining child queen".
  • The throat-slitting looked really cheap. Obviously there are limitations with television, but in that case they should have adapted to the problems.
  • At the end, I thought the massacre felt like a shock-moment, rather than how in the books it felt completely natural (like with Ned's death - it was shocking but felt natural). I can't help but feel that D&D read the Red Wedding and thought "WOW what a shocking twist!" and approached the adaptation of that scene with the idea of making it as shocking as possible.
  • Cat's death was very disappointing.
  • Arya running around the Twins felt so odd. Northerners were being massacred all around her, but there was no real sense of danger, urgency or desperation... just shock.
  • Queenscrown was a bit odd too... It never really felt like Jon was in danger, considering that the wildlings basically stood back as he killed Orell. And the way he killed Orell felt a little bit sadistic to me too.
  • Bran's lack of reaction to seeing Jon was a bit strange too.
  • Repeatedly stabbing Talisa in the stomach was just unnecessary.

The episode was enjoyable enough, but like others since season two it doesn't really stand up to even a shallow analysis.

7/10

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It is incredibly rare when I feel this emotional about a TV show...

10/10.

By far the greatest episode of the series.

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Copied from the nitpick thread:

  • The writing was once again very weak in places.
  • The Arya/Hound scenes continue to be very disappointing.
  • Dany's scenes were literally just about Daario, Barristan and Jorah, and the rivalries between them... Hers is one of the few stories with a central female protagonist, so it's extremely disappointing that she was essentially reduced to a background character this episode.
  • Similarly, Jorah's dialogue to Barristan (repeating what Barristan had said in episode 5) felt a little too... obvious. D&D really need to learn subtlety.
  • The worst part: Barristan silently getting drunk. WTF??? They could have used that time to talk about Rhaegar, but no - they replaced it with Barristan getting drunk whilst protecting his "bright shining child queen".
  • The throat-slitting looked really cheap. Obviously there are limitations with television, but in that case they should have adapted to the problems.
  • At the end, I thought the massacre felt like a shock-moment, rather than how in the books it felt completely natural (like with Ned's death - it was shocking but felt natural). I can't help but feel that D&D read the Red Wedding and thought "WOW what a shocking twist!" and approached the adaptation of that scene with the idea of making it as shocking as possible.
  • Cat's death was very disappointing.
  • Arya running around the Twins felt so odd. Northerners were being massacred all around her, but there was no real sense of danger, urgency or desperation... just shock.
  • Queenscrown was a bit odd too... It never really felt like Jon was in danger, considering that the wildlings basically stood back as he killed Orell. And the way he killed Orell felt a little bit sadistic to me too.
  • Bran's lack of reaction to seeing Jon was a bit strange too.
  • Repeatedly stabbing Talisa in the stomach was just unnecessary.

The episode was enjoyable enough, but like others since season two it doesn't really stand up to even a shallow analysis.

7/10

How is that a 7 (and "enjoyable") and not a 1? Sounds like you didn't like anything.

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How is that a 7 (and "enjoyable") and not a 1? Sounds like you didn't like anything.

The acting was great, the directing was quite good, the music was fantastic, and the story was generally enjoyable. But there were a lot of problems that should be obvious. Some of them were just personal taste however (the Arya criticisms especially) which don't really affect my rating.

If I was comparing the show to truly excellent shows (e.g. Breaking Bad, Mad Men), it would be a lower score. But compared to other GoT episodes this season, I think 7/10 is right.

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Robb's look on his face was sad to tears...

I really think they should've played the sad soundtrack they played in season 1 after Ned's beheading... I would've cried for years then...

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Regardless of my very mixed feelings for this ep, I immediately started to cry when the Rains of Castamere started playing. My Unsullied bf and his friends were like wtf..

Almost 12 hours later that damn song is still stuck in my head.

A lion still has claaawwsss...

Oh man, me too. I thought the cello version of it was very haunting and appropriate. I burst into tears when it started. I've had it stuck in my head this morning too.

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Copied from the nitpick thread:

  • The writing was once again very weak in places.
  • The Arya/Hound scenes continue to be very disappointing.
  • Dany's scenes were literally just about Daario, Barristan and Jorah, and the rivalries between them... Hers is one of the few stories with a central female protagonist, so it's extremely disappointing that she was essentially reduced to a background character this episode.
  • Similarly, Jorah's dialogue to Barristan (repeating what Barristan had said in episode 5) felt a little too... obvious. D&D really need to learn subtlety.
  • The worst part: Barristan silently getting drunk. WTF??? They could have used that time to talk about Rhaegar, but no - they replaced it with Barristan getting drunk whilst protecting his "bright shining child queen".
  • The throat-slitting looked really cheap. Obviously there are limitations with television, but in that case they should have adapted to the problems.
  • At the end, I thought the massacre felt like a shock-moment, rather than how in the books it felt completely natural (like with Ned's death - it was shocking but felt natural). I can't help but feel that D&D read the Red Wedding and thought "WOW what a shocking twist!" and approached the adaptation of that scene with the idea of making it as shocking as possible.
  • Cat's death was very disappointing.
  • Arya running around the Twins felt so odd. Northerners were being massacred all around her, but there was no real sense of danger, urgency or desperation... just shock.
  • Queenscrown was a bit odd too... It never really felt like Jon was in danger, considering that the wildlings basically stood back as he killed Orell. And the way he killed Orell felt a little bit sadistic to me too.
  • Bran's lack of reaction to seeing Jon was a bit strange too.
  • Repeatedly stabbing Talisa in the stomach was just unnecessary.

The episode was enjoyable enough, but like others since season two it doesn't really stand up to even a shallow analysis.

7/10

I've absolutely no idea why you watch the show - I've never seen a positive review.

- The wedding. It IS a massive shock. Allow it eh?

- HOW was the writing weak? Please, please elaborate and give examples, because you raise this point every week when everything indicates that the contrary is the case. It's one of the best written on television. Arya v The Hound was a fantastic example.

- In fact, that leads onto my next point - D&D DO understand subtlety, thus why the writing is so good and we don't see everything blurted out all the time, like some people seem to want it to be. The books are great, but because of the nature of it, GRRM will often describe everything in excruciating detail. Some viewers seem to want the show to be like that as well - it won't be. Cos it's a TV show. And cos it'd be shite if they did it that way. Although I get the feeling you'd still call the writing bad either way.

- The Barristan thing.... I know you're obsessed with Dany's scenes to the point where you nitpick everything in them, but really? Rhaegar? It'd have killed the pacing and momentum of the entire episode. It'd deviate from the current plot. It'd be messy. It'd be random as fuck - he's not been mentioned in this series really, so surely we should allow the writers the time to write his stuff in over the next season or two? The backstory Rhaegar supplies Dany is very important and deserves the proper treatment, not the odd line here and there.

- Arya WOULD be shocked. She's a kid. Did you expect her to run in all guns blazing? It also followed on from the whole "you're worried that you've come so far and won't get there" - you could see it in her eyes, she knew what was happening. It was brilliant acting from Maisie.

- The stabbing of Talisa hammered home the shock for me. No idea why people thought it unnecessary.

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How is that a 7 (and "enjoyable") and not a 1? Sounds like you didn't like anything.

It seems pretty common here that people fail to write balanced descriptions of their opinions. The good is often just brushed over and then it's all delving into the negative, despite claiming to enjoy it.

Edited by Tywin's bastard

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I've absolutely no idea why you watch the show - I've never seen a positive review.

- The wedding. It IS a massive shock. Allow it eh?

- HOW was the writing weak? Please, please elaborate and give examples, because you raise this point every week when everything indicates that the contrary is the case. It's one of the best written on television. Arya v The Hound was a fantastic example.

- In fact, that leads onto my next point - D&D DO understand subtlety, thus why the writing is so good and we don't see everything blurted out all the time, like some people seem to want it to be. The books are great, but because of the nature of it, GRRM will often describe everything in excruciating detail. Some viewers seem to want the show to be like that as well - it won't be. Cos it's a TV show. And cos it'd be shite if they did it that way. Although I get the feeling you'd still call the writing bad either way.

- The Barristan thing.... I know you're obsessed with Dany's scenes to the point where you nitpick everything in them, but really? Rhaegar? It'd have killed the pacing and momentum of the entire episode. It'd deviate from the current plot. It'd be messy. It'd be random as fuck - he's not been mentioned in this series really, so surely we should allow the writers the time to write his stuff in over the next season or two? The backstory Rhaegar supplies Dany is very important and deserves the proper treatment, not the odd line here and there.

- Arya WOULD be shocked. She's a kid. Did you expect her to run in all guns blazing? It also followed on from the whole "you're worried that you've come so far and won't get there" - you could see it in her eyes, she knew what was happening. It was brilliant acting from Maisie.

- The stabbing of Talisa hammered home the shock for me. No idea why people thought it unnecessary.

  • The writing was weak "IN PLACES". Particularly the Dany scenes, Walder Frey's over-the-top insults of Talisa (and Robb STEPPING FORWARD in retaliation? WTF). It's far from being one of the best written shows on TV - there are too many inconsistencies.
  • No, they're "subtle" in the wrong places. They forget to explain crucial plot points and leave some things to the imagination of readers, but they're far too explicit with parts that SHOULD be more subtle (character motivations, characterisation, etc.)
  • Ugh, you seem to be severely misunderstanding my point. In Dany's chapter during the battle of Yunkai, she anxiously awaits news of the battle and so uses Barristan as a form of escapism. They discuss Rhaegar. That could have been done perfectly without disrupting the narrative, but instead they decided to have Barristan get drunk instead. It's lazy, insulting, a wasted opportunity, and just disappointing.
  • Of course Arya would be shocked, but the key word was "just". That's all there is. The writing and directing doesn't give her the opportunity to show her desperation, her fear, her urgency, etc.
  • I think stabbing her once would be gruesome, but in-line with the massacre. Stabbing her repeatedly (and creating a pregnancy just for this moment) was just gratuitous.

ETA: I think some of you struggle to understand why I'm so critical of the show because you're looking at the responses to the show as "LIKE" or "DISLIKE". My response to the show is far more complex than that. I like a lot about the show, as I've listed countless times (the cast, music, scenery, CGI), but there are also a lot of things I dislike. Generally the show is enjoyable, but it doesn't stand up to any sort of analysis, which is disappointing and means it cannot ever be compared to the truly great TV shows of our era.

Edited by PatrickStormborn

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Another fantastic episode.Pacing slightly strange because of the scene changes, but overall this kept the pace fast andmeant the episode was an emotional rollercoaster all the way to end of the silent credits. I thought they dealt with the RW very well, it may differ from book RW but this was the TV show's take on it, and they did bloody well.

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I gave it a 10, but it's more like a 9.5. Minor quibbles about lack of Cat clawing her face and no "don't cut my hair" line. I need to watch it again, as I was watching a bit too much like a book nerd and looking for all the book things (like the above, Grey Wind being loosed, the arrows to start flying immediately, Robb to say "Grey Wind" as his last words).

Still, it was heart wrenching and awful. I'm still thinking about it this morning. Other stuff in the ep was good, especially Bran/Rickon. Even though that parting wasn't in the books, it was very touching and got me choked up. I'm hoping we'll see some of Osha and Rickon in the next season, since GRRM is fond of TV Osha. Maybe we'll see Osha get word of the RW, decide it's not safe to go to the Umbers, and make the turn for Skagos. Jon finally showed some Book Jon. The Dany plot was a little meh, but I don't care for Dany on TV or books, so I'm not going to take off points for that.

Overall, I felt it was a great episode.

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How often can you repeat "Excellent production values, good actors, great plot"? They are default positions.

Episode-by-episode, analysis would naturally instead focus on the things that stand out in the depiction, and particularly the things that don't work. Why those rather than the things that do? Well, because it's an adaptation, usually "what works" is stuff that we're already familiar with: story and character and plot points from the novels. Saying "the Red Wedding is great" is something we've all heard for for over a decade. Saying "the adaptation did not establish the same atmosphere as the novel" is something we could not say before yesterday.

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The people complaining about the lack about the lack of burning tents, look at the promo for next week

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  • I think stabbing her once would be gruesome, but in-line with the massacre. Stabbing her repeatedly (and creating a pregnancy just for this moment) was just gratuitous.

I don't think you'd stab just once. The goal is to kill her and make sure the fetus is dead, so multiple stabs make sense. As for creating the pregnancy just for that, well, how is that any more "gratuitous" than Catelyn ripping her face, or sewing's Robb's head on Grey Wind? It is intended to shock and horrify. Personally, I'm greatly appreciative that the showrunners managed to recreate some of the shock/horror I felt upon my first reading of that chapter by adding a character and scene that fit, yet that wasn't in the original text.

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How often can you repeat "Excellent production values, good actors, great plot"? They are default positions.

Episode-by-episode, analysis would naturally instead focus on the things that stand out in the depiction, and particularly the things that don't work. Why those rather than the things that do? Well, because it's an adaptation, usually "what works" is stuff that we're already familiar with: story and character and plot points from the novels. Saying "the Red Wedding is great" is something we've all heard for for over a decade. Saying "the adaptation did not establish the same atmosphere as the novel" is something we could not say before yesterday.

While it's quite true that now people have the ability to say that where before they didn't, YMMV. IMO, as a book reader who had the Red Wedding spoiled for me prior to reading it, the television adaption moved me in a way the book didn't. It left me shaking, nauseous and broken, despite being the only person in a room of six people who knew what was going to happen. I thought it was brilliantly acted, and while the dread was built up more slowly and quietly than in the book, I think it served the scene better overall. Having it telegraphed via the drums early on would have been overkill, IMO. The Unsullied I was watching alongside already had "this is going entirely too well" foreboding prior to the door being shut and locked - that moment, and the moment when the Rains of Castamere started, did plenty to coalesce the dread into a coherent "oh, NO" kind of moment for them.

TBH, no offense, Ran, but when I read the site analysis of this episode, I was pretty shocked. I'm left feeling that there's really not much the show can do any longer to impress; it's devolved into a fairly endless "the show just can't live up to the book" this season if you go by most of the recaps. There are things I'm disappointed by in the show adaption, as well, but IMO, the Red Wedding isn't one of them. Whereas the book was just another scene for me, yesterday's visuals were devastating, and are going to stay with me a long time.

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How often can you repeat "Excellent production values, good actors, great plot"? They are default positions.

Episode-by-episode, analysis would naturally instead focus on the things that stand out in the depiction, and particularly the things that don't work. Why those rather than the things that do? Well, because it's an adaptation, usually "what works" is stuff that we're already familiar with: story and character and plot points from the novels. Saying "the Red Wedding is great" is something we've all heard for for over a decade. Saying "the adaptation did not establish the same atmosphere as the novel" is something we could not say before yesterday.

How often can people repeat "it's different from the book", "it loses complexity/nuance", "it's gratuitous" and whatever else people are saying often? There's nothing inherently different from going into detail about things that don't work than there is to go into detail about why things are good. That things that are good are already familiar doesn't really work for me either since there's plenty of scenes that people have found good that are either completely new or are shown differently because of the differences in mediums.

I just don't see how there's any difference in treating the good and the bad other than just that everyone chooses what they want to focus on.

To make myself clear this is just a question about the point you made here. I'm not asking about anything in your recap as I haven't gotten around to reading it yet.

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Riveting, powerful television. The RW scenes were incredibly tense and dramatic, with a payoff just as horrifying as what I'd imagined, despite any changes. The rest of the episode was outstanding as well; it's fairly incredible how much they managed to pack into an hour! A few minor nitpicks here and there but nothing to get hung up about - 10/10.

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